What the import community thinks of the Fbod

Well i asked my celica board (www.celica.net) what they thought of the camaro, in specific the 4th gen. here is what i got...

http://celica.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008190

what do u guys think?

-EriC

There is some intelligence on that board.........:p

Lots of kind word from the other side.:)

Wow...I guess I shouldn't be surprised....for the most part very close to what is said here a lot... With the possible exception of this quote:

Try and find a LT1/LS1 guy with over 60K on his original heads.

I wasn't aware this was any problem....but I read some odd stuff in our own LT1 forum sometimes.

Good idea jadedst and a good read too since there is a lot of assumption here about what import guys like or don't like. I'm guilty of that myself at times.

Just proves what I have said over and over...younger buyers respect the Camaro and generally desire it. If GM made a an entry level model that offered the content and performance of the RSX or Celica, had style (T-tops, decent bodywork or ground effects), and matched those imports in price they would have no trouble selling.

Originally posted by formula79
Just proves what I have said over and over...younger buyers respect the Camaro and generally desire it. If GM made a an entry level model that offered the content and performance of the RSX or Celica, had style (T-tops, decent bodywork or ground effects), and matched those imports in price they would have no trouble selling.

well my biggest motivation for the idea was that everyone on this board always wants to "take sales from the mustang." which obviously should be done. but camaro has many more competitors now, look at all the sporty imports. the next camaro needs to steal some of their sales to be competative.....

This is VERY valuable.

First, it's very valuable because of the misconceptions:

1) Camaros can't handle.

2) Camaros get bad gas mileage.

3) Camaros can't survive past 60,000 miles.

4) The 3800 was "weak".

5) Braking leaves something to be desired.

6) Expensive to maintain.


The terrific thing about every single one of these misconceptions is that they can be tackled via advertising/marketing.

We know:

1) Camaros CAN handle.

2) Camaros get phenominal gas mileage.

3) Camaros can last well past 60,000 miles.

4) The 3800 was no LS1, but it wasn't "weak" either.

5) A Camaro will smash your brain against the inside of your skull if you stand on the brakes.

6) For a performance car, maintenance costs are well within reason.


Just gotta get the message out for the 5th gen.

yup, what PacerX said..

I will admit, they do "feel heavy" though, which i think is because of the long hood and dash, and the thoguht that it will bite back if you do something stupid. Once you get past that, they are a blast to drive..


Add that to the fact that most people have driven an older Camaro with a well worn suspension and/or a person that is primarily into drag racing... which is another unfair stigma, the Camaro got labeled as the one-trick pony drag car.

Wow, I was really impressed with the constructive critisism!

A lot of mainly good comments on that board except for the milage comment:blah: Some similar complaints i have about the Fbodys (interior quality/room mainly). Im not sure why a few of them were against the V6s so badly. I can understand the 3.4s a little but even the 3.8s? Theyre not the beasts of the LT1s or LS1s, but theyre not that bad. Plus they are very good to learn on IMO.

well guys, just glad i can be of some service :D

Originally posted by PacerX

We know:

1) Camaros CAN handle.

2) Camaros get phenominal gas mileage.

4) The 3800 was no LS1, but it wasn't "weak" either.


I'm going to have to "dispute" these claims.

1) Yes camaros can handle, but its the perception of the driver which matters. Theres no way around saying that a Camaro "feels big" and even though performance numbers may not reflect this, the driving expereience is more important to a car buyer. This is especially true when the survey involves Celica owners, people whos cars come in under 3000lbs and slalom close to 70mph. (the new GTS) While our cars may have good grip, they slalom around 60mph and have big turning radiuses. These are things new car buyers notice.

GM needs to work on making hte car feel more nimble. Looking at the sports cars under $30k that have come out in the last 5 years, they are all nimble. (WRX, Evo, RSX, new Celica, 350Z) Obviously big hp numbers are not required to make people happy. While yes, big hp is important for a Camaro, the overall driving experience could be better in the F-bodies.

2. Gas milage. Once again its relative. I bet if you polled LS1 drivers on this board, they are getting around 16-18mpg in the city driving slow. The car was rated at 19/28 for a 6 speed. Now a 2003 V6 Accord which is rated at 21/30 will probably net you between 20-24mpg in the city. I cant say for sure, but it wouldnt suprise me if WRX, 350Z etc. drivers all got above 20mpg in the city as well. I've come to notice when comaring my milage to friends with V6 fwd sedans and coupes that they often get above what was rated on the window sticker. Sure, I'm driving a V8 sports car but looking at it objectivly, my gas milage while not being bad certianly isnt spectacular.

Gas milage isnt as important for older buyers who are finicancially stable, but for younger buyers who tend to have less to spend, it is a large consieration. Like I said, its all relative to your perspective and situation in life.

3. Lastly the 3800 being weak. I'm gonna have to go with them and say, yes it was kind of weak. If I had a V6 Camaro I'd liek to outrun the 4 cylinder import competition. You can show me articles where people have gotten low 15 second et's out of these cars but the majority of people in the V6 section are getting high 15s. This is where the "slower" import competition is running. Not to mention that the 4 cylinder cars were not only often quicker, but more nimble and got better gas milage. They are often more fun to drive, thus more appealing to young buyers.

Think about it, 2800lbs 180hp Celica that you can wind to 8400rpm which runs low 15s or 3500lb 200hp 6000rpm mid-high 15 second Camaro? Pretend youre a teenager car shopping, which sound more fun appealing lookign at numbers?

Not just weak in power and flare, but aftermarket as well. Young buyers who this car was targeted out could go and buy a Honda and have way more options for engine upgrades and overall vehicle custimization. You can argue that the Mustang V6 sells well, but the Mustang is not only much more practical but has an sizeable aftermarket and a "cool" image. I dont think the Mustang V6 is even really marketed as a "performance car" as much as the Camaro seemed to be in the catologues. :think:

Just my opinions, rip them up as you guys see fit. :)

I am always puzzled about people saying that f-bodies can't handle. I think these are the people that have never driven one and just go along with ricer propaganda. I also think that maybe if the Camaro had better bolstered seats, this would help the driver/passenger feel the lateral forces instead of moving around in the seat and say "wow, this car really handles well".

The gas milage thing, well that's what you get when you have a 2-3 times more powerful car.

Originally posted by PacerX
The 3800 was no LS1, but it wasn't "weak" either
I used to beat my friends 3800 camaro every time with my alero .

I still don't think the camaro is a viable alternative for the sport compact crowd. That should be the next Grand Am's job along with the cavalier. I guess I just don't like the idea of a v-6 camaro. It's necessary to support the v-8 but it wont get any street cred.

and as you can see from the import guys, handeling and nimbleness (sp?) is a big deal. yes they all recognize that the car is bigger than most 4 banger sport cars, but still, im sure that GM could do a little better in this department, as well as hopefully shave some weight?

It would be nice to have a base Camaro with a blower so that the potential of the base would be much better. They could take the 3.5 and put a blower on it and get around 275 horses with low boost and then you would have a market like the GTP/Regal GS. Of course, there is that pesky cost thing, but maybe it could be done.
The last part of my post sounds like it belonged in a very long thread we had a few weeks ago.:)

Not too bad, i was expecting alot worse but kudos to their criticism, they stated good and bad things about the cars not just biased opinions.

also a word to defend the 3800 here a little. im not trying to start an argument or pro-3800 thing here but keep in mind that this motor has to pull a heavy car and while Z28 and SS get to breath out through dual exhausts, the v6 car gets a puny little single exhaust system. even the Y87's dual system is tiny. slap a catback on 3800 car with mandrel bent pipes and the car "wakes up" quite a bit. a friend of mine's 01 firebird with a borla exhaust can hand my car its rear time and time again. not trying to start a flame war or hijack a thread just trying to defend the 3800 series II a little. :)

Having an opinion around here is tough, I know. ;)

But really, all the import owners I talked to whether they think stupid things that aren't true about Camaros or not have admiration for the cars (any Gen really) and I think that's something because of course most of us don't have it back for them.

RICE,RICE,RICE!!!!!!

I suspect that this would be the overwhelming response....if this thread was the other way around.

Not to get off on a rant here.....but those guys on the Celica board seem like car enthusiasts to me.

Do we have very many car enthusiasts here?
Sometimes I wonder.

I like (make that....LOVE), cars. Sure my automotive world revolves around Camaros....but if it's got a motor and wheels....I'm just plain into it.

I'm not into that whole ricer thing...but if I go to an autocross ( no rice, just enthusiasts there) and see a nice VR6 Golf, SE-R....and yes....even a nice Civic.....I like what I see.

Why?

Because I'm a car enthusiast.

Maybe some of us can be more like those Celica guys.:cool:

It depends on the car. :)

Originally posted by Z284ever

I'm not into that whole ricer thing...but if I go to an autocross ( no rice, just enthusiasts there) and see a nice VR6 Golf, SE-R....and yes....even a nice Civic.....I like what I see.


You got that right!
Domestics are outgunned at least 3-to-1 at our autoX meets.
I said long ago, you don't have to like your competition, but you better respect it. I'll tell you right now that I LOVE my '89 LX 5.0 and I'd take it over anything out there, but I get my arse handed to me by Civics, Rabbits, Sentras, CRX's, WRX's, S2000's, Miatas, Accords, and several others - EVERY TIME.

The plain truth here is that those cars are light, low, well-suspended, and FWD. They can simply go through a turn at a higher speed than my front-heavy dinosaur. It's kinda cool (in a wierd way) to watch the FWD cars aim the front wheels and hold the pedal to the floor, the rest of the car will follow. But in a RWD car, you put the gas pedal to the floor in a turn and you do a donut! (at least MY V8 does! :D ) Me and a guy in an '01 T/A WS6 were within a second of each other all day, and we both got killed (like 2 seconds better) by an '84 Rabbit GTI with a stock engine and running 12" wheels... TAKE THAT!!!:eek:

The point is, those little light cars do have an advantage inherent to their design - and it is handling and nimbleness. AutoX is a field in which their advantage inflicts mortal wounds to a traditional V8 car. My hope to combat these types of cars is nested in the Focus/Cavvy-type offerings by the domestics. Neon is coming in there strong too.

Now if there was a 1/4-mile straightaway after the last turn on that track, we V8 guys would have a different situation...;)
Now, to their dismay, you don't often find 8 90-degree turns and a 4-cone slalom all within 200 yards on the streets... so when we are on the highway running 75, or at a light with 1/8th of clear road ahead, the advantages of turning are unimportant - and they (rice or imports) get clobbered by sheer power. That's why they notice that Camaros make good "drag cars", because that's where they get beat. Plays right into their comments, doesn't it?

Take nothing from them though... I think it can be alot of fun to drive a slow car at it's limits as compared to driving a fast car in a "restricted" mode. Those cars are nimble, quick-responding, and just downright fun at times. Fuel economy... well... ummm... nevermind!:o

Originally posted by Z284ever
RICE,RICE,RICE!!!!!!

I suspect that this would be the overwhelming response....if this thread was the other way around.

Not to get off on a rant here.....but those guys on the Celica board seem like car enthusiasts to me.

Do we have very many car enthusiasts here?
Sometimes I wonder.

I like (make that....LOVE), cars. Sure my automotive world revolves around Camaros....but if it's got a motor and wheels....I'm just plain into it.

I'm not into that whole ricer thing...but if I go to an autocross ( no rice, just enthusiasts there) and see a nice VR6 Golf, SE-R....and yes....even a nice Civic.....I like what I see.

Why?

Because I'm a car enthusiast.

Maybe some of us can be more like those Celica guys.:cool:

Just because someone doesn't like a certain type of car, does not make them a non-enthusiast. I don't like little fwd compact cars, period. They do nothing for me. The same way that a Camry, Accord, or Taurus do nothing for me. So am I not an enthusiast because I don't like every car? No.

I also don't think that the majority of responses would be "RICE!". I think that if you asked this group a serious question about what you think about a Celica, you would get some real answers.

Originally posted by ProudPony

Take nothing from them though... I think it can be alot of fun to drive a slow car at it's limits as compared to driving a fast car in a "restricted" mode. Those cars are nimble, quick-responding, and just downright fun at times. Fuel economy... well... ummm... nevermind!:o

That is the biggest advantage to my car. I can throw it into a pretty sharp turn at a decent speed and not have a problem. i kno my car isnt fast, i do the quarter in like 18 seconds or something rediculous, however wipping around windy roads is its specialty.

everyonce in awhile when it gets real late at night, a buddy of mine and i, take our cars (he has a volvo s40), and run them through windy mountain roads near where we live as fast as we can. let me tell u guys, dont count out the abilities my little car has when it comes to something like this. hitting a decently sharp turn at like 60-70 and hearin the tires scream as u go around it, all the while being pinned to the bolsters of the seat is a HUGE rush.

also i am with sneaky niel in saying that i am a car enthusiast. i love camaros, i like my little celica, but if a car is fun to drive, im gunna like it. enjoying the driving experience matters to me the most, and whatever design can do that for me, im all about.

and ill finally stop typin by saying, that i would definitly like to hear some constructive and intelligent opinions on the celica. o did u guys know they had a 4wd turbo version from 88-93 as well? hehe, betcha didnt!

Shouldn't the saturn ion coupe, pontiac sunfire, or cavalier/cobalt coupe be aimed at a celica instead of a camaro?:think:

Originally posted by Jackass
Shouldn't the saturn ion coupe, pontiac sunfire, or cavalier/cobalt coupe be aimed at a celica instead of a camaro?:think:

Yes. But what are they doing to compete with the compacts?

Didnt a V6 Camaro go for ~$20,000? A loaded Celica or RSX goes for ~$24,000. They seem like they were indirectly in competition with each other. At that time GM had no sporty compact... unless you called the Cavalier a sporty compact. :blah:

Once again it was low revving, low power Cavalier/Sunfire vs. high reving up to 200hp other compacts. I've never heard a magazine journalist rave about a Cavaliers handling while like mentioned before the imports are slaloming near 70mph and pulling close to .9Gs. Atleast ford came up with the SVT Focus. What do we have?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I think even if Chevy supercharged the Eco-tecs to 200hp across the board they still wouldnt have the appeal of the other imports. I can hear kids saying now, "Chevy had to supercharge their 4 cylinder to get what my Acura came with stock." GM has a long way to go to build street credibility in the sport compact arena.

Not to offend anyone who likes it, but the Ion coupe just isn't cool. I dont think youll hear kids talking about how they cant wait to get behind the wheel of one. For GM's sake, I hope the Cobalt steps up to the plate.

Originally posted by bigsteve7
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I think even if Chevy supercharged the Eco-tecs to 200hp across the board they still wouldnt have the appeal of the other imports. I can hear kids saying now, "Chevy had to supercharge their 4 cylinder to get what my Acura came with stock." GM has a long way to go to build street credibility in the sport compact arena.
Neon SRT. They are everywhere. GM needs to copy that format exactly and they will have a winner.

Originally posted by slt
Neon SRT. They are everywhere. GM needs to copy that format exactly and they will have a winner.

exactly, GM needs to go down the turbo path, especially since the way that F&F glorifies turbochargers.....

My cousin's bf is a ricer, he loves his car and respects anyones car no matter what. They came to MI for the dream cruise and he was just :shock: of my car. Looks and power he was totally speechless, so there are some good ricers out there. :cool:

Then there are some that totally hate american cars, just like there are some that totally hate foreign cars. Just like the ford vs chevy thing, it will never end.

I could car less what the "The Slow & The Frivalous" crowd thinks of Camaro.....

http://www.geocities.com/stpwindsor/everythingfastfurious.txt

Originally posted by bigsteve7
2. Gas milage. Once again its relative. I bet if you polled LS1 drivers on this board, they are getting around 16-18mpg in the city driving slow. The car was rated at 19/28 for a 6 speed. Now a 2003 V6 Accord which is rated at 21/30 will probably net you between 20-24mpg in the city. I cant say for sure, but it wouldnt suprise me if WRX, 350Z etc. drivers all got above 20mpg in the city as well. I've come to notice when comaring my milage to friends with V6 fwd sedans and coupes that they often get above what was rated on the window sticker. Sure, I'm driving a V8 sports car but looking at it objectivly, my gas milage while not being bad certianly isnt spectacular.

My friend has a WRX STi and it gets worse milage than my SS, of couse it is going to take a lot of gas to get 300HP out of a 2.5L engine.

I think that fact that all these cars use premium is more of a turn off to the cash straped driver than gas milage.

The 3800 in the Camaro is pretty weak. I drive one. Honestly, the Malibu I rented while my car was in the shop felt faster and more responsive than my Camaro does. From a dead stop the 3800 isn't that bad, but from anything more than a 30mph roll, it just doesn't feel fast, and from the cars I've played around with on the highway, it isn't fast.

The 3800 has lots of potential with aftermarket though. But honestly I regret buying it when I could have gotten the barebones Z28. I thought I wanted the t-tops and all, but if I had to make my choice again, I'd of gotten a Z28 just for the drivetrain.

The base Camaro should at least be able to keep up with Accords and Maximas.

Originally posted by Z28x
My friend has a WRX STi and it gets worse milage than my SS, of couse it is going to take a lot of gas to get 300HP out of a 2.5L engine.
The EVO and STI run extremly rich from the factory as a safety measure for stupid tuners and crappy gas. Alot more power can be wringed out of these cars by simply leaning them out with an AFC or ecu reflash which also gets you better gas mileage.