Who are the big three again?

http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0309/04/a01-262408.htm

unless GM can stem the tide, pretty soon it will be just the big 1; Toyota. They have had their eyes on world domination for some time now, and it's only strengthening their grip with this NASCAR stunt coming up...

honestly, how laughable/pathetic/scary is the fact that toyota is willing to reverse engineer a carbureted, OHV small-block, just so they can sell more cars to the nascar crowd?

I think its pertty scary cause Toyota has the knowhow and resources to make to happen.. and dominate!


Originally posted by Magnum Force
honestly, how laughable/pathetic/scary is the fact that toyota is willing to reverse engineer a carbureted, OHV small-block, just so they can sell more cars to the nascar crowd?

Originally posted by Magnum Force
unless GM can stem the tide, pretty soon it will be just the big 1; Toyota. They have had their eyes on world domination for some time now, and it's only strengthening their grip with this NASCAR stunt coming up...

honestly, how laughable/pathetic/scary is the fact that toyota is willing to reverse engineer a carbureted, OHV small-block, just so they can sell more cars to the nascar crowd?

They tried it last year in the NHRA with a funny car Celica, Most people hated it, the driver is a cursed man, and it no longer exists. I hope NASCAR fans sun it like the NHRA guys did with the funny car.

I think the nascar thing will be a failure too. That is not exactly Toyota friendly territory.

I will have to say that Toyota will not take the top spot. They have gained while the real "Big 3" have been sleeping and now that they are waking up, things will change and I think the *** market share will slide.

THe only thing toyota is doing right is good quality, other than that the only thing they lead in is making boring cars.

Maybe Toyota will make a 2+2 RWD V8 coupe for $25,000

And toyoyta has the most amount of free $$ to play around with..

alot of NASCAR teams are worried because Toyota will be spending mad amounts of $$$ into their NASCAR truck team, which is going to force everyone to spend more $$$ to become competative..


heh, I dont' think GM makes a RWD V8 2+2 coupe for $25k.

Originally posted by Ken S
heh, I dont' think GM makes a RWD V8 2+2 coupe for $25k.

No but they did a year ago :(

Scary indeed, even in the age of 0% financing and heavy rebates on domestic brands they still lost ground and cash to the foreign competitors. What will happen when times change and the domestics can't continue to have rebates...

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I think the nascar thing will be a failure too. That is not exactly Toyota friendly territory.

I will have to say that Toyota will not take the top spot. They have gained while the real "Big 3" have been sleeping and now that they are waking up, things will change and I think the *** market share will slide.

I agree. The real big 3 have some exciting CARS coming soon.

Maybe Bob Eaton wasn't a dummy after all, regarding the Diamler/Chrysler "merger".

Chrysler is bleeding red ink profusely...that the parent company in Germany....is absorbing.

I wonder if Chrysler would even be around whithout the "merger"?

I also wonder if it's German masters will ever want to spin it off and cut their losses.

Toyota is on the rise. Things tend to go your way when you make quality cars and have an excellent loyal customer base (both of which Toyota has). I don't think they'll be giving up any market share anytime soon.

Domestics on the other hand do have some good cars coming out in the near future. With the big 3's quality going up, and the gap between them and the japs closing, they might have a good chance of regaining lost market share.

I don't wish them failure, and i don't blame them for trying to get to the next level. I blame GM, Ford, and Chrysler for their own troubles. You have to screw up big time to lose huge chunks of your market share to smaller foreign competitors.

And don't forget about the dealer networks, too...my mom finally bought a toyota 4runner, and whenever I took it in for service, the whole experience is much better and more efficient than when i went to chevy/chrysler dealers in the past.

Product notwithstanding, if GM customer service and dealerships were as good as their japanese counterparts, that ALONE would mean 5 percentage points of market share...

Hello everybody, I'm new in here and this post actually kinda inspired me to jump in. First off, having both built a "certain Japanese car" at one point, (Northern Kentucky..I ain't saying the brand cause they have sued for less...no joke) and sold Volvo's (great cars to drive, if somewhat quirky when new reliability wise) for a dealership that also sold that "certain Japanese car" (right next door) I have some experience with both the car and the service provided.
First off, yes.....service of that Japanese car is, from a no fuss standpoint, better than that of the "average" domestic dealership IMO. I don't believe for a second that the techs are better trained overall, but the experience is "friendlier". Especially when you compare that Japanese companies' luxury division to say...Caddy or Lincoln. Apples and oranges. Unfortunately, the same can be said, for the most part, about Volvo, BMW, Mercedes, etc. when compared to Caddy and Lincoln. There are obviously always going to be exceptions to the rule, but the Japnese company does do a great job with providing "friendly" service. Overall however, I wouldn't write too many "letters of recommendation" about the Japanese Car Companies service I witnessed.
On more than one occasion I saw, with my own two eyes in the flesh, a tech or service manager explain what was "wrong" with the customers newer Jaonese car. More often than not, the customer was informed that what happened was "their fault" because they had ..(insert ridiculous reason here). And the customer virtually always bought it. The techs would die laughing later...it was a total load!
Now, as far as money goes this is not an issue since if the car is broke you gotta fix it. But, what I noticed was a whoooole lot of customers who, upon discovering how THEY had broken their Jaonaese car would simply say their car had been "problem free" since if they hadn't broken it things would have been fine.
Folks this was not that uncommon. I will use this time to mention that from what I saw when building those Japanese cars I do not feel that their quality is superior in any way to domestic cars......especially pre Nasser Fords and Fords since 2001. As a matter of fact I recall once while working for the Japanese company during one quarter in the late ninties(I do not recall which one) their luxury divison led a recall category. Leading a recall category is not where you want to be guys.
Do I think a lot of folks have a "better experience" with import cars? Yes, but not because of the cars. When I sold those Volvo's, the difference between how a person would treat a domestic car compared to an import, even a lower market one, was amazing.
Example, I took in, on trade, a Buick Park Ave. once, about mid ninties, that had around a buck and a half in mileage. I am still not certain wether or not the owner realized that oil is something you are expected to change. It looked like pitch in the engine....no joke. The tech who serviced the car said that there was no way he had ever changed tranny fluid, flushed the radiator...ANYTHING but change the oil (and as I said he didn't exactly do this often)....this in 150,000 miles. The car looked as bad as you would expect, but ran like a top.
I would love to say the above is the exception, but with domestic cars, it was closer to the rule for the average owner. Now for some reason when people got an import car (And I mean the standrad Japanese brands.) the story was different. "Well, I make sure I change the oil every 3000 miles or less, and it has to be at least a synthetic blend. I had the tranny flushed at 50,000 even though the book says wait til 65,000. Well, I did have to have a head replaced at 75,000 miles but it WAS my fault."
Now to be fair, most of those import owners had no problems with their cars, but what do you expect...they maintained them! But, there was no significant difference between how much trouble these folks had with their cars compared to the domestics as far as I could tell. But, for some reason the domestic drivers always felt as though at 100,000 a U.S. brand auto is on "borrowed time"..Why? I don't think honest numbers prove this at all.
Don't shoot me for my Fords, but my T-Bird Turbo coupe has a very hard 198,000 miles on it (I did lose a turbo, but they are only supposed to go about 120,000 if you treat them great). My dad's Taurus is sneaking up on 300,000, and my mom's Catera is right at 100,000 and runs, drives, and feels like a new car. Why? We take care of our cars. Some cars are more problematic than others of course, but the Japanese are going to have this too.
And, I will say, without naming the dealer I worked for, that it is very large indeed and draws service customers from literally hundreds of miles...a lot of them. There customer satisfaction numbers are out the roof, or were at the time I was there, and I can't imagine they are anything but typical.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Maybe Bob Eaton wasn't a dummy after all, regarding the Diamler/Chrysler "merger".

Chrysler is bleeding red ink profusely...that the parent company in Germany....is absorbing.

I wonder if Chrysler would even be around whithout the "merger"?


One can easily spin this the other way and ask if Chrysler is doing badly only because the Germans mungled things up pretty badly when taking control, such as killing off most of the new products in the pipeline back in '01 when things were going so badly (there's a good response to poor sales - delay new introduction of new product :rolleyes: ).

As far as Toyota's fortunes go, it's not hard to figure out why they're doing well - they've been selling excellent cars for 20+ years. I know that the gap is closing quickly and many folks want to know why the Japanese still have such an outstanding reputation compared to the domestics, but the truth is that it takes a long time to build up a name. Honda and Toyota weren't overnight successes, people.

With regards to dealer service, I've noticed a huge improvement in GM's service departments in the last 3-4 years. In fact, based on my experiences and those of close friends, I'd rather visit the local Mr. Goodwrench than his Honda counterpart - no joke. I don't know if this is a national trend or just something local.

Originally posted by Eric Bryant
One can easily spin this the other way and ask if Chrysler is doing badly only because the Germans mungled things up pretty badly when taking control, such as killing off most of the new products in the pipeline back in '01 when things were going so badly (there's a good response to poor sales - delay new introduction of new product :rolleyes:).



You are so correct! An easy argument could be made from that too.

Hey guys....even aside from wether service and reliability of imports are better or not. What does Toyota build that really appeals to the enthusiast now? Not much is the most typical answer.
The Supra is gone, and even when it was here the price tag was unbelievable. Before they lowered the prices of Supra's in 98 or 99 the Turbo versions stickered for something like 50,000 and change. A Z06 is only around that number now. I am not saying 50 large was too much for a really awesome 2+2 GT, I am saying it was too much nfor THAT 2+2 GT
Also please consider that 50 grand plus would have then easily put someone in an 98 WS6 T/A and a S-10 4x4, or a SVT Cobra and a Ranger 4x4. My point is that while the Supra was well made and quick(ugly sob though), even when they had it who could afford the hot one. (As I hinted at before they did eventually lower the price on Turbo cars some 20,000 dolllars, but can you imagine being the poor slob who just laid down around fifty large for a car and now you cant even sell it for thirty-five g's at one year old?)The car we all get tired of hearing Toyota guys drool over is coming back, but only in Japan. So no hot 2+2 for America.
Toyotas performance lineup consists of the MR2 (Reflexes like a go-cart...and come to think of it...,.acceleration like a go-cart too.....slow that is.), the Celica GTS (If you are into the high strung, high revving "Did that Supercharged Regal just eat my lunch?" kind of experience.), and in the Lexus lineup the IS and GS series cars. Both cars are fine cars in their own right, but a 5,000lb Lightning pickup would dispatch either like the Lexus was tied to a pole. Amazingly, the fastest car Toyota builds is the GS430 sedan. Nice car, but what does that say for Toyota's performance commitment? :death:
Honda arguably does better, but to get a truly "quick" car you have top pony up over thirty large for a S2000 and that is only fast when compared to other Hondas. Who in here would buy a NSX over a Viper, ZO6, or the new Ford GT? Funny, I don't see any hands. The new Nissan Z is okay I guess, but until and "if" a Turbo version hits it isn't exactly a road missile.
Subaru builds the WRX but who is Subaru's daddy? The General. Mitsubishi has the Evo but the US gets a watered down version and it is expensive enough that it cannot be called a bargain by any standard. Also, a Ram Air F-Body or any DOHC Cobra and especially the 03 will waste an Evo.
My point is simply that no car company is going to dominate much of anything without a "balanced" program that takes every kind of large market into consideration and gives them something truly appealing. The Japanese have simple fallen down on performance models for some time now. If Ford and the General can get their images back in the game. (Making Lincoln and Cadillac truly world class luxury cars again will help...Please, finish what you started guys.) Well, the Japanese are the ones who have plenty to worry about IMO.

Originally posted by jsaylor
Hey guys....even aside from wether service and reliability of imports are better or not. What does Toyota build that really appeals to the enthusiast now? Not much is the most typical answer.


Frankly, Chrysler's only affordable enthusiast's offering worth mentioning is the SRT-4, and GM's showrooms aren't exactly flush with bang-for-the-buck performance either. So, given that, I don't see where Toyota's got a lot to fear at this point - as most of the GM fans on this board will parrot over and over again, performance cars are not what drive sales.

This doesn't make me happy, but if I put myself in the shoes of an average buyer and have a choice between two commuter-level vehicles with the same price tag but one carries a better reputation for quality, better fit and finish, and better retained resale value, I don't think that the presense or absense of a "halo" performance vehicle is going to sway my decision one way or the other.

I think this story belongs here.

http://www.detnews.com/2003/insiders/0309/10/inside-267236.htm

Originally posted by jsaylor
Subaru builds the WRX but who is Subaru's daddy? The General. Mitsubishi has the Evo but the US gets a watered down version and it is expensive enough that it cannot be called a bargain by any standard. Also, a Ram Air F-Body or any DOHC Cobra and especially the 03 will waste an Evo.
Last I heard Subie is largely owned by Fuji Heavy Industries. Just because Subaru might be making deals with GM to sell more vehicles or share costs, doesn't mean GM is its "daddy" the same way you wouldn't say VW is Porsche's "daddy" just because they developed the Tuareg (or whatever that thing is called) for VW.

Secondly, a nearly stock EVO 8 jets through the quarter in 13 flat, and being that it has traction at all 4 corners, it'll get there pretty consistantly on street tires. dusted? not quite. And considering its a factory car for under 35k that will outrun the F-body and keep up with the 35k blown Cobra, how is that no a bargen?

Originally posted by morb|d
Secondly, a nearly stock EVO 8 jets through the quarter in 13 flat, and being that it has traction at all 4 corners, it'll get there pretty consistantly on street tires. dusted? not quite. And considering its a factory car for under 35k that will outrun the F-body and keep up with the 35k blown Cobra, how is that no a bargen?

Because they don't sell the Evo 8 in the US. The US version is called Lancer Evolution and isn't exactly the same as the Evo 8. The US version only does a 13.8

the US Lancer EVO is every bit EVO 8 minus an expensive limited slip center diff and some other mostly minor stuff. and as according to C&D its 13.6 in the quarter for the factory car. let Vishnu (from C&D again) work his magic and for 2-3k you get a 13 seconds flat car. for 32k that still beats out anything else (new) for the money today. oh, and it also turns and stops pretty well too.

i mean, name examples that can claim the same (new)? the only thing that comes close in bang for buck is the Neon SRT-4. and even then, its less bang for less buck.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble as I am no huge fan of the Evo or the SRT4, but in the Comparo's I have seen the SRT4 has outrun the Evo down the quarter. They gave the credit to lower weight, but it really does not matter either way as both would get their lunch eaten bone stock by a 03 Mach 1 through the 1/4. Never mind a Cobra

The Cobra rings in at about five grand more than an Evo after you add on things like....destination (All of them have it, but it is nice of Mitsu to advertise the car without it) and floormats(lol). At that price the Evo is still not nearly as well equipped as a stock Cobra, and when comparably equipped you are looking at about 32 grand plus. Three thousand dollars difference.

Even at five grand worth of difference, the Cobra will outrun the US spec Evo by more than a second through the quarter mile. That is getting it handed to you my friend. And, as for the road course, in a recent MT (dangit was it Car and Driver?) comparo the snake tore the 350Z and RX8 a new one by a second and a half per lap. So I don't think you will find many Cobra drivers sweating over an Evo.

As for your 3 grand of mods to really show the Cobra something....lol. Okay, you are at what.....33 grand at least then in a stripped Evo? Okay, a Lightning blower pulley (can be found used, and is not expensive new), a cat back exhaust, and a ram air kit. (All of this might set you back a grand if you buy it all new and don't shop.) You could easily do all of this for less than five hundred if you have any mechanical skills and looked for bargains.

Okay, now my under $36,000 Cobra cranks out 500+hp (This set up is all over every Mustang mag) at the crank and your Evo will need WAAAY more than 3 grand in mods to keep up.

So no, I am not impressed with the "value" of this overachieving ricer. And, the Evo's acceleration is only as good as it is because of AWD which is only a big benefit to acceleration from a stop or out of a corner. Even so the Evo would still lose a drag race. But, think about how bad it would be if you go from a roll ?....Say 50 to 130 mph? Say bye bye to the nice Cobra.

Yeah the Evo is hardly a deal compared to a Cobra. If you want a import then its still not a good deal compared to a SRT-4. Besides i rather have a STI. And from a roll it would say bye bye to a lot of cars.