The Camaro Project. Part 3. Are two performance models, one too many?

OK, no fights here...just intelligent exchange of ideas.

We have two Camaro performance models. They seem to be creating some friction among us. They also seem to be creating an identity crisis for Camaro....that GM is unable/unwilling to resolve.

Are two, too many? Would it be better if one was dropped?

Or can both be differentiated enough to work well for Camaro?

Is GM even interested in differentiating them?


For the purposes of this dicussion, let's not name names...we'll probably start fighting.

Let's call them.....

Camaro Alpha
...the one that won the SCCA championships in the '60s.

and

Camaro Beta...the one that had an available big block in the '60s.

If this turns into a pissing match...I'll delete this thread.

Ford has 3 performance Mustangs, so I don't see why the Camaro can't have 2

I also don't think we should dwell on what happened for 1 or 2 model years almost 40 years ago

Originally posted by Z28x
Ford has 3 performance Mustangs, so I don't see why the Camaro can't have 2

I also don't think we should dwell on what happened for 1 or 2 model years almost 40 years ago

No idle chatter allowed here buddy...

What is it that you propose?

Is that Alpha with a "/"? Just kidding....;)

Seriously, in all reality GM is going to put these models on a sliding price scale. One more expensive and one less. A straight forward approach would seem to dictate that the more expensive one be the better performer. Would people be willing to pay more for a car with less performance? I'd say No....but....

The only way that they would, IMO, would to have two performance models with different personalities to cater to different crowds that have different performance goals.

What do I think will happen? Bravo will be all out dollars performce and Alpha will be a budget performance model. I wouldn't look down on an Alpha because of this though. Budget performance will be extremely important to a 5th gen and in the end maybe make for a lighter car that would be better suited to autocrossing...especially if a "trak pak" package were available for the corner carvers.

Originally posted by Z284ever
No idle chatter allowed here buddy...

What is it that you propose?

Well as much as I hate to say it.... I'd propose that they copy Ford. Ford seems to have a successful formula for making 3 performace mustangs work.

With the Camaro, I'd like to see one with a Ram Air hood, one with a cowl hood. Both have different 17" or 18" rims, different spoilers, maybe even grond effects on one of them.

Performance wise, both could get the LS2 6.0L V8. If one has 10HP more than the other I don't care.
maybe
Camaro A - 375HP
Camaro B - 390HP
C6 Vette - 415HP

Maybe even have one cater to the drag guys and one for the road course guys.

Make one of the two performance models AWD!

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Make one of the two performance models AWD!

OK..

Which one?

I know you've brought this up before...maybe the time is right to develop this idea further.

I say make an IROC, thats better than both of them so they dont have anything left to get in a pissing contest about :thumb:

But seriously, I dont see a problem with having two performance models, even three if they wanted to make the RS halfway respectable again.

I think they should make ones of them a little more rare though and offer a different engine package for it. I think the Z should be the basic top of the line package, with the high power LS1, and then the SS should get a bigger hp engine say an LS6. Or vice vera. But I really think teh SS should get the higher power engine since thats they way it was back in the day.

Then the IROC should get a sb 427 :metal:

a) one model

b) LSx stroker

c) Cobra slaying performance

d) I don't care what you call it!

:p

Camaro Alpha comes with the standard V8.

Camaro Beta comes with the somewhat higher rated V8.

But to make each model unique, Alpha will be the only model to have the "track package" as an option.

Beta will be the only one to get a "sport appearence" (i.e. ground fx, hood etc.) package.

I know this is off topic, but I think in order it is also important to make the Alphas and Betas also have a different front clip than that of the base V6 car.

Gentlemen,

Even the mighty Corvette has basically two performance models (the base convertible, FRC and T-top cars), and it could be considered a single-use toy in some cases.

Camaro has to appeal to a broader spectrum, so I figure more iterations are possible.

Originally posted by Z284ever
OK..

Which one?

I know you've brought this up before...maybe the time is right to develop this idea further.

I dunno... doesn't matter really... that just fall sinto the naming game thing.

It would differentiate the two though, therefore giving a reason to the existance of both, without "devalueing" the other....

I posted this in another thread:


"I've pretty much spent the better part of my life ( since I was six years old, in fact, when I saw my first '67 Camaro), following Camaro's, ups and downs...it's successes and failures.....and think IMHO, I have a pretty good handle on where and what Camaro needs to be, to be successful.




Camaro NEEDS three basic models:

1) The Budget GT.

Fun. Affordable. Good looking. A joy to drive and own. Beautifully put together.

2) The Luxury GT.

Fast. Powerful. Comfortable. Upscale. High option content. If you're gonna have a Nav system....this one should have it.

3) The Performance GT.

Very fast. World class braking and handling. Serious look. Content limited."


I really and truly believe in this formula for Camaro. Every successful Camaro generation used this formula to great advantage.

Which one (Alpha or Beta) goes where?

Originally posted by Z284ever
I posted this in another thread:


"I've pretty much spent the better part of my life ( since I was six years old, in fact, when I saw my first '67 Camaro), following Camaro's, ups and downs...it's successes and failures.....and think IMHO, I have a pretty good handle on where and what Camaro needs to be, to be successful.

Camaro NEEDS three basic models:

1) The Budget GT.

Fun. Affordable. Good looking. A joy to drive and own. Beautifully put together.

2) The Luxury GT.

Fast. Powerful. Comfortable. Upscale. High option content. If you're gonna have a Nav system....this one should have it.

3) The Performance GT.

Very fast. World class braking and handling. Serious look. Content limited."


I really and truly believe in this formula for Camaro. Every successful Camaro generation used this formula to great advantage.

Which one (Alpha or Beta) goes where?
1) Budget GT. Here is your base model. V6 power. Basic bells and whistles with lots of trim and gadget options.

2) Luxury GT. Fully loaded to the max, no nonsense, all the bells and whistles. Comes with a Supercharged V6 or normally aspirated V8. Few trim options other than convertible or t-top coupe, automatic or six speed. Upgraded suspension over the base model.

3) Performance GT. Here is your no nonsense Cobra slayer. With options it can be built up like the Luxury GT, but it doesn't have to be. Comes with a large displacement stroker or supercharged V8. 6 speed is standard, automatic optional. Upgraded suspension over the Luxury model. Some luxury items are optional (leather, power seats, pw, pl, etc.)

Some items would be standard across the board, i.e. AC, Interm. Wipers, etc. Others would be available options on all three models, e.g. power leather front buckets (although these would be standard on the Luxury GT.)

As for naming these models.... should I even go there? :lol:

To be honest, I'm getting tired of this pissing match of Z/28 vs. SS, slash vs. no-slash, etc. I just want Camaro back. :rolleyes:

1) Camaro
2) Camaro RS
3) Camaro SS

:eek:

And just to make the Z/28 camp happy. For 2007 there would be a limited edition special "trim" package for the Performance GT model with special graphics and badges, etc... in other words...

4) Camaro Z-28 40th Anniversary Edition.

The differences between 3 & 4 would be purely cosmetic... their performance, equal.

So sue me! :irk:

In regards to the no-nonsense Cobra slayer. I'd like to see GM go the way of the turbo V8. Cobra vs. Camaro, Blower vs Turbo. Even if it's slightly more expensive, the turbo would open up the turbo F-Body market, differentiate the Camaro model it is in from any other and be very sought after like the Turbo T/A's of the 3rd gen era but now more common. Superchargers are everywhere and far outnumber turbos. If GM puts together a well done turbo LSx in the high end Camaro, good things are going to happen in our camp again. I think that goign turbo for the high end performance model will open many new doors for the Camaro. Cobra can play with its pulleys and its HP draining blower, I think we'd like the efficiency turbo can offer and ability to just throw on a boost controller and call it a day.

I would like to see

A/pha - All the performance goodies, plus the basics of a modern car (power windows/locks/steering, etc., manual seats, but a decent stereo. Keep some options available, like leather and a big boomer stereo. This car would have the firmest suspension. Kind of like a Z06 in spirit, but offer a T or Targa top and keep it inexpensive. Maybe make them all stickshift.

Betta - Like the A/pha, but fully loaded. Power everything - but with the same engine and horsepower rating. The suspension would be very firm but not as stiff. It could be a little better on the drag strip than the A/pha car, but by no means would it be a drag car. This car would look Different, but not "better". On this car some of the performance goodies standard on the A/pha would be optional. This would keep the prices of the cars similar, with the "Beta" being 1 or 2K more (base model to base model). Also, if you wanted a V8 convertible, this is your only way to go.

Basically - two different UNIQUE cars. One for the real extremists, and one for everyone else who just wants a great fast car. But the key is that neither is "better" than the other.

This would allow GM to keep all the models relatively affordable and it wouldn't have to develop two unique V8 engines. [zips flamesuit] I also think that going after the Cobra with either model is a mistake. A $34K-$37K Camaro is just too expensive and too close to vette territory to make financial sense. I think GTO makes more sense as a Cobra killer. [/unzips flamesuit].

Originally posted by CamaroBoy96Z28
In regards to the no-nonsense Cobra slayer. I'd like to see GM go the way of the turbo V8. Cobra vs. Camaro, Blower vs Turbo. Even if it's slightly more expensive, the turbo would open up the turbo F-Body market, differentiate the Camaro model it is in from any other and be very sought after like the Turbo T/A's of the 3rd gen era but now more common. Superchargers are everywhere and far outnumber turbos. If GM puts together a well done turbo LSx in the high end Camaro, good things are going to happen in our camp again. I think that goign turbo for the high end performance model will open many new doors for the Camaro. Cobra can play with its pulleys and its HP draining blower, I think we'd like the efficiency turbo can offer and ability to just throw on a boost controller and call it a day. Then kill me now 'cause I'm buying a Cobra! :D

I don't want no stinking turbo in MY 5th gen Camaro! I want my power at WOT from idel. I don't want to have to wait for a stinkin' turbo to spool up. HP drain on modern superchargers is :bs: This aint no 6-71 Jimmy son! Gimme a supercharger over a turbo any day of the week.

Remember the old addage... Injection is nice, but I'd rather be BLOWN! :D

It is obvious that the Cobra's sole mission in life is to challenge the Corvette. When the Z06 goes to 500hp and the base Vette goes to over 400, would anybody be surprised if the Cobra's horsepower rating gets bumped also? With the Shelby version of the Cobra (almost a scary though, but in a good way!) being mentioned these days, I would expect nothing less.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Camaro NEEDS three basic models:

1) The Budget GT - Fun. Affordable. Good looking. A joy to drive and own. Beautifully put together.

2) The Luxury GT - Fast. Powerful. Comfortable. Upscale. High option content. If you're gonna have a Nav system....this one should have it.

3) The Performance GT - Very fast. World class braking and handling. Serious look. Content limited.

I really and truly believe in this formula for Camaro. Every successful Camaro generation used this formula to great advantage. Which one (Alpha or Beta) goes where?

1. Base
(RS option or model should be here)
2. SS
3. Limited/all-out Z28

That's the only way it makes sense and should be.

Originally posted by Z284ever
For the purposes of this dicussion, let's not name names...




Originally posted by IZ28
1. Base
(RS option or model should be here)
2. SS
3. Limited/all-out Z28

That's the only way it makes sense and should be.


:think:

Originally posted by WERM

Basically - two different UNIQUE cars. One for the real extremists, and one for everyone else who just wants a great fast car. But the key is that neither is "better" than the other.



I say, put WERM in charge of GM.....he gets it.

For both Alpha and Beta to both prosper and add value to the Camaro name, they both must be unique, desirable, not better from each other...but different, and aimed at different niche's.

I believe that his is the definitive post of the thread!:bow:

Going back to the original question at hand...

We have two Camaro performance models. They seem to be creating some friction among us. They also seem to be creating an identity crisis for Camaro....that GM is unable/unwilling to resolve.

If by two "performance" models you mean stripper model and luxury/full-frills model (you weren't neccessarily clear), quite honestly, I don't see a need for a stripper performance Camaro. Base Camaro with a V6 yes... but if you're basically talking about a fully optioned (sorry I'm going to use that word) "SS" and a stripped down version with all the cosmetic crap taken off but with all the performance goodies in tact.... why bother?

I don't want a stripper car.

I just want a badass V8 powered high horsepower Camaro... with leather seats, AC, PW, PL, alarm, etc.

:confused:

I definitely think there can be two performance models.
You can have one with modest performance that would just out perform the Mustang GT. Then another one that would have more power (50hp) or whatever the magic number may be.

I don't think you will get a camaro that will be able to compete with the Cobra. Ford is turning the Cobra into a corvette competitor and GM isn't going to make a camaro that can compete with the vette long term (ie not just one year exceptions like the TTA)

I think if there is a two level camaro it would compete with the Boss or Bullit mustangs. Then the vette, Viper and the cobra will duke it out for the fastest american sports car.

I would like some different looks for the two upper camaros, either a front clip or 2 different hoods or soilers whatever it will be. Maybe one with IRS the other without. There are many different ways you can differentiate them.

As far as power adders, by the sound of it this would probably end up being a dealer installed option to lower the complexity during production. So there could be a lot or different variations in the end when model and dealer options are available.

Originally posted by jg95z28
Going back to the original question at hand...



If by two "performance" models you mean stripper model and luxury/full-frills model (you weren't neccessarily clear), quite honestly, I don't see a need for a stripper performance Camaro.



NOPE! That wasn't what I was trying to get at, at all.

And really, I'm not sure where this notion of a stripper performance model started anyway. There is a difference between limiting performance sapping features and a stripper.

Lets face facts...from a marketing point of view, Alpha or Beta are interchangeable.

In fact, they have swapped positions a couple of times.

The question I posed is, in order to reduce brand schizophrenia, does one model need to be dropped or do both need to be differentiated?

Just to share my thoughts....

1. Base Camaro, V6
2. Camaro Alpha, A 302 or 350 that is better at handeling.
3. Camaro Beta, a 396 LS1 (:D ) that is better for speed

Option 1: RS, better handeling abilities
Option 2: 1LE, the "stripper" version, drops everthing not needed for performance.

It would be nice to have limited run Yenkos or COPO cars with a small block 427 to deal with the cobra (plus I love Yenkos).

I tired to base these on the 1st gen. Camaros with a little bit of moderness injected in.

Originally posted by Got-LT1
Just to share my thoughts....

1. Base Camaro, V6
2. Camaro Alpha, A 302 or 350 that is better at handeling.
3. Camaro Beta, a 396 LS1 (:D ) that is better for speed

By the time Camaro comes back, Chevrolet will be up to Gen IV DoD powerplants.

#2 & #3 Don't exist on that platform. :rolleyes:

I'm not big with DoD. Didn't they try it in the 80's and it sucked? I'm sure they made improvements but i still don't like the idea. i like all my power all the time (why i don't like turbos) and all my engine there all the trime (why i don't like DoD).

Originally posted by Got-LT1
I'm not big with DoD. Didn't they try it in the 80's and it sucked? I'm sure they made improvements but i still don't like the idea. i like all my power all the time (why i don't like turbos) and all my engine there all the trime (why i don't like DoD).

After reading reviews and articles on it, it seems DOD has improved vastly over what you may remember. Activation and deactivation of cylinders is imperceptable. Nothing like turbo lag in the least. Writers on a test drive said that the only way they knew the system was active was a little light on the dash. They drove something like 10 miles and the system had activated/deactivated cylinders more than a hundred times if I remember correctly.

The truth is you don't need that power all the time. If you do, than drive with your foot on the floor for the entire trip....If you really can't tell if the system is on or off, then what's the difference? Maybe exhaust idle note.....What do you get in return? A 15-20% increase in gas milage/range or more power....I think it's more than worth it.