The Camaro Project. Part 2. The case for the "track pack".

Undoubtedly, we won't get 4 or 5 models like Mustang. We certainly won't get 4 or 5 powertrain choices.

We're going to need to do more with less.

350Z has one model with various packages to suit the customer's needs. Maybe we could learn something from this.

Without getting into a naming debate, this is what I propose.

Bundling up together, PX's 1LE brakes and 1LE suspension...and some of the other tidbits suggested by poSSum would be a good start. Maybe add some seats and a good shifter.

Make this "track pack" available only on a specific body style, like coupe only.

Why?

Because when suspension engineers tune a chassis they have to take into account the "5th Spring".

What is the "5th Spring"? The chassis itself.
I don't know what level of rigidity the next Camaro will have...nor the detrimental effect convertible or t-tops might have on it...but I am pretty sure that they will alter the way the 5th spring reacts.

If chassis tuners don't have a set rigidity parameter for the 5th spring...they will need to tune things at the lowest common denominator....that is for the more flexy convertible. For the coupe enthusiast...that means some handling and precision gets left on the table....and if that's the case....WHAT'S THE POINT? If not restricted...this GONZO road race package will need to be re-tuned for different weights and rigidities, or just plain watered down.

I say, let's keep it simple.

This won't necessarily be an econo-package....BUT....it would be viewed as a GREAT value for those who may consider it.

If we are talking suspension, wheels, tires, brakes, seats, pedals, shifter etc....we may be talking about a $3-$4,000 package. Maybe less, maybe more. At any rate, it could be priced at a point where the willing wouldn't be turned off on price....but GM would still make a good profit.

Anyone up for a "Track Pack" on your next Camaro?

Anything to add?

NOTE: (Please don't say a supercharger for the 6.0 or a live rear axle....thanks).

Originally posted by Z284ever
If we are talking suspension, wheels, tires, brakes, seats, pedals, shifter etc....we may be talking about a $3-$4,000 package. Maybe less, maybe more. At any rate, it could be priced at a point where the willing wouldn't be turned off on price....but GM would still make a good profit.

Anyone up for a "Track Pack" on your next Camaro?

Anything to add?


Yes, add in a 350hp V8 (over the basecars V6) and call it the Z28 please. :)

I view it like this.. GM picks a class for factory support, where the next Camaro can be competative in The strictly roadrace stuff they develop and use in this program can be purchased on GMPP thru your dealer. Things like HD radiators, coolers, lines, rollcage, harnesses, rims, seat, brake setups, ducts, sumped/baffeled tanks/pans/fuel cells, brakets, etc used in the factory support teams.. This stuff obviously is for roadracing only, not street use...

The stuff might be more expensive than figuring it out all yourself, but your are assured that you have well engineered/fabricated parts thats proven to work and be competative...

Perhaps the factory support team can be linked with a dealership/builder that can officially build a turn key spec race car for you, and with some marketing/sales magic, can also be officially numerated and tracked as part of the racing program... so one can claim they have the official spec racer car #104 built by GM Factory Racing Team...

Oh don't forget the stickers and decals.. lol..

Originally posted by bigsteve7
Yes, add in a 350hp V8 (over the basecars V6) and call it the Z28 please. :)

I'm thinking that it should be available on any V8 Camaro.

Or should this package also be combinable with V6?

"Track Pack" = The original Z/28.

...and please, don't restrict it to hardtops.

why not just call it the 1LE and have a new Camaro model.

I always liked the concept of the 1LE/track package. I think limiting it to hardtop only is a little confining. If you don't want to offer it on vert models, great...but T-tops haven't been found to significantly reduce chassis rigidity or handling ability that I'm aware of.

Originally posted by WERM
"Track Pack" = The original Z/28.

...and please, don't restrict it to hardtops.

Well maybe we can use the C4 as a model.

In 1988 I ordered a Z52 Corvette roadster. I really wanted to get it with a Z51 package and 4+3. The Z51, however was only available on the coupe. The Z52 had most of the same hardware as the Z51...but had softer shocks and some other stuff.

Do you think that this "track pack" should have "Z52 like" settings to make it work on different body styles....or that the coupe could continue with firmer settings, but a softer package should be available for non-coupes?

Originally posted by Z284ever
I'm thinking that it should be available on any V8 Camaro.

Or should this package also be combinable with V6?

Well if its available on any V8 model, what is there to differentiate say a Z28 from a SS? I think making one more of a "all around sports car" (hence the track package) and the other more of a "pure muscle car" would be a good way to separate them.

Just food for thought...

Originally posted by bigsteve7
Well if its available on any V8 model, what is there to differentiate say a Z28 from a SS? I think making one more of a "all around sports car" (hence the track package) and the other more of a "pure muscle car" would be a good way to separate them.

Just food for thought...

Well, I'm trying not to get into that right now. I just want to gauge interest in the package itself.

I think this is a great idea. I agree that it shold be hardtop only (a la Z06) and that it should be available with either engine. The focus on this model shouldn't be the power output at all.

If this model mkes it and if it's available with either 6 or 8 cylinders, then I wonder which would be best around a tight autocross course? the only thing against the V6 is the DOHC stuff which moves the center of gravity up in the chassis.

My intent with making the option packages lay out the way the did was to allow the 1LE package to encompass what a "Track Pack" package would be.

Bigger brakes, bigger wheels and tires, bigger swaybars, better shocks, maybe even lighter weight/stiffer suspension pieces, possible an uprated differential.

The package SOULD BE a bit rough around the edges. It SHOULD BE a bit stiff (maybe not 1984 Corvette stiff - which was able to cause renal failure). But it SHOULD NOT be the package that gals who want a sharp, powerful cruiser are looking for (a large amount of the Z28/SS market was women).

It should be the next best thing to a turn-key race car.

It should also cost you a few thousand smackers - but it has to be worth it. THat means that the aftermarket can't stumble along in 3 months or so and make a better package for half the price.

I disagree that it should be hardtop only or available on a V6 car.

at least that's my opinion.

I definitely think there is more than ample market for a "track-pack" Camaro. Just go to an autoX event and look at the enthusiasm there. Our local club is ever more loaded down with each event - having 100 cars or more at a meet now. (It's kinda becomming a drag in a way - I was there from 7:30am 'til 6pm and got to run only 5 times at the last event!:mad: )

Anyways, between all the excitement in autoX and road racing and events like the Silver State Challenge, I think it would be a mistake NOT to have such a package for the Camaro.

I also think it should be hardtop only (for SAFETY if not for the rigidity alone). IMO, if you wanna cruise with the top down, put on some Buffet, and slurp on your 32oz Icee, that's great - you don't need the track-duty suspension bouncing you around... you might mess up your hair or spill some Cherry Icee on your leather seats or your new white Polo shirt. :shock: :no:

I think it should NOT be available on V6 cars. If someone wants to be really weird and do a hyper V6/handling car, let them either drop a V6 into the V8 car, or add the suspension and goodies to their V6 car in their garage. I have NO PROBLEM with the factory offering all the peices to the market, but the "packaged car" from the factory should be on the V8 car only. It should also come with badging (not gaudy) that IS NOT available to the masses to allow the "authentic" cars to be visually identifiable. This way, anybody can have it on whatever they want if they are willing to pay for it/do it on their own, but the factory doesn't have to deal with the complications that all the various parts and combinations create on the assembly line (thereby adding cost!). Also, the collectors will have fuel for their fodder as well.

I'd have no problems paying extra for a car that was "all go/without the show". I know there have been many in this forum who have commented on their passion for "sleeper" cars... well this could be a great one!

I vote aye for the "track pack" option!:thumb:

You know where I stand.

Yes to "track pack".

Hardtop only.

It's gotta be good and I'll pay.

I also like the idea of the factory supported race parts, roll bar, harness etc.

Originally posted by poSSum

It's gotta be good and I'll pay.



That's how I feel too.

Originally posted by poSSum
You know where I stand.

Yes to "track pack".

Hardtop only.

It's gotta be good and I'll pay.

I also like the idea of the factory supported race parts, roll bar, harness etc.

You wouldn't be happy if a hardtop track pack was offered alongside a convertible track pack?

Originally posted by PacerX




I disagree that it should be hardtop only or available on a V6 car.

How do you make this all out package available on a convertible without watering it down?

Argh...

OK, I could probably agree with letting convertibles slide...

... but I really love T-tops.

Originally posted by cmc
You wouldn't be happy if a hardtop track pack was offered alongside a convertible track pack?

"Convertible" and "Track Pack" are mutually exclusive.

1. 13.99 or quicker with a convertible = roll bar required.
2. Our local road course "parade" laps (parade = no timing ;) ) convertible without roll bar = there are the bleachers, enjoy :(
3. Suspension tuning: SLP had to revise their Bilstein package to a softer spring, stiffer swaybar to get GM to sign off on it. The SLP Bilstein package is very mild relative to what you would want in a track pack.
4. 1LE: was never available on convertible. Apparently it would have shaken the car apart.
5. 4th Gen SS convertible did NOT get the SS suspension. It was Z28 with SS sway bars.
6. Red Planet has stated emphatically the GM will NEVER factory install a rollbar in their product. (Mind you he also emphatically stated that Holden product would not come to America because of the fuel tank :rolleyes: GO BOB!!! )

My preference would be that the hardtop have a roof unique from the T-top car with additional bracing / rollover protection perhaps even in conjunction with the convertible floor pan to optimize peformance and safety.

There are NVH elements that would be tolerable in a "track pack" hardtop that would be unacceptable in a convertible.

This said, it's much more important for Chevy to get the convertible right, because you can't "fix" things like awkward tonneau design after the fact, whereas performance upgrades are possible, aftermarket seats are available, etc.

Originally posted by poSSum

My preference would be that the hardtop have a roof unique from the T-top car with additional bracing / rollover protection perhaps even in conjunction with the convertible floor pan to optimize peformance and safety.



I'd be all for that...but we've got to keep an eye on weight.

We don't want a "Fat Track Pack".

Also, I don't necessarilly believe it needs to jar your tooth fillings loose either. Chevy learned alot from the '84 Z51. When they revised it a year or two later, it rode much better and actually handled better.

The Z06's ride will never be confused with a Buick....but it is more than acceptable to the 25-30% of total C5 buyers who choose it. And there is no denying it's handling capabilities.

One more vote for a track biased package avalible for hardtops and t-tops. Convertibles shouldn't get this as an option. Honestly it really defeats the purpose of an all out track car. Besides, looking back at history, the original track carving Camaro-the Z/28- wasn't avalible as a vert.

Now the debate of which gearboxes this package should be optioned with... I'd lean more towards a manual-only myself, but the way the market is now it might make more sense to have a slushbox avalible as well.

Originally posted by Sixer-Bird
One more vote for a track biased package avalible for hardtops and t-tops. Convertibles shouldn't get this as an option. Honestly it really defeats the purpose of an all out track car. Besides, looking back at history, the original track carving Camaro-the Z/28- wasn't avalible as a vert.

Now the debate of which gearboxes this package should be optioned with... I'd lean more towards a manual-only myself, but the way the market is now it might make more sense to have a slushbox avalible as well.

PLEASE STAND BY:

I'm about to make a concession.

Although there is not a chance in hell that I would consider a "track pack" with anything short of a manual....but, I am willing to accept an available automatic if it makes this package more popular.

I will not budge on a convertible though.

If they make a track package they need to call it the z28. Back in part 1 of this discussion i brought up the point of gm putting two different displacement v8's in the camaro. Put the 350ci in the ss, and bring back the 302ci for the z28.

Since we are taliking about a "track package", I believe that it needs to have a 6-speed manual, huge disk brakes (let's say 13 inches), racing seats, no funky computer gizmos in the interior (like gps and dvd crap) its adds weight as well as price. Traction control should be an option. Put a IRS with limited slip as the standard rearend. It should be less than $30k so that i can afford one

Coupe only. Sorry convertible lovers. Can't afford the chassis flex in a track car.

I remember reading in motor trend a year or two ago that gm built a 302ci ls1 so it can be done.

Originally posted by Jackass
Put the 350ci in the ss, and bring back the 302ci for the z28.



I'm not sure what the point of that would be.


Other than that, I agree with you.

Originally posted by Jackass
Since we are taliking about a "track package", ...no funky computer gizmos in the interior (like gps and dvd crap) its adds weight as well as price.

But a GPS system could not only help get you to the track (and the Chinese buffet restaurant on the way), but it could give you real-time 3-d speeds, lap times, and trap speeds if you programmed it right!;) :D

You mean you really don't want those in your track car?:(

At least the HUD... it could let you concentrate on the upcoming hairpin curve while watching your exact tach readings and fuel levels...:rolleyes:

Jackass, I'm totally with you - my sarcasm was meant to uncover realities for some, via humor.

Let me say this before I rant...
I am basing all my following comments on the fact that we ALREADY HAVE A GREAT-SELLING BASE CAMARO, AND A GREAT-SELLING UPSCALE UNIT (like RS or something). Now I'm gonna talk specialty car (again :rolleyes: ).

I think something needs to be discussed here and now that has not yet been mentioned. With regards to these "track-pack", Alpha, top-performing, super performing, super-GT, cobra-slaying, option-restricted, non-stripped, CARS...
I base my claims for the top-dawg to be a pure-performer on the fact that I AM NOT going to drive it every day. It would be a "toy" for me, something I would dig out on Saturdays to go get a hot dog and a shake at the drive in, or take to track events/car shows once in a while. I would not rely on this car for everyday transportation, as a work vehicle, or as a grocery getter - therefore I don't care about ride quality, HUD, GPS, leather, or most other luxuries... I just want a fast car ... PERIOD.

I also have a distinct line drawn between a fast car (like the Z06 or Cobra) and a fast car like a Mach 1, GT, SS, or WS6. To me, they differ in price, seating capacity, design intent, and basic presence. By presence, I mean where you can go in the car and what you can do... for example, I wouldn't think twice about driving a WS6 or GT to a funeral, but would wifey and I show up at a friend's funeral in a RED Z06? Not likely, a funeral should bring out respect and humility - not testosterone and attention-magnets. Certain cars only fit in certain places and situations, ya know? The "track-pack" car should likewise have a dedicated purpose - track work. It should be built for big boys wanting big toys - it should not be the car of choice for a 16 y/o to grow up and go to college in or to raise toddlers in IMO. Those of you picturing a track car that you can also drive around every day and "live" in are not sharing the same vision for this car as I.

Now having said that, who cares about the production levels and associated costs? I have yet to hear anyone say that they would not pay extra for this "specialty" car. Nor does it have to justify itself by being insanely profitable - that's a lame and stupid rule made up on the fly by folks not wanting to do it. The huge sales of base cars should justify the costs and existence of the top-level cars - we've all said that before, so why this sudden rule of "self-justification"?!?! Who says? Think about it for a second... "We can make $15,000 a peice on 1,000,000 SUVs and $7,000 on each of 500,000 cars, and we can offer $5000 incentives to buy our stuff... but we are not going to accept a break-even price on 3000 special units that would excite our most loyal supporters, and could produce $miilion$ in free advertising due to rag covers, articles, comparo-tests, track meets, TV coverage on car shows like MotorWeek, dealer spots, and the like. Nope, sorry, can't do it 'cause we won't make any money on those units." Baloney! . You show me no love, I show you no love. Look across the street guys... the neighbor is doing it... successfully too I might add.

And let's be honest, we talk alot about different engines, different displacements, and so on to get different HP ratings to differentiate the models. "It will cost too much for a specialized powertrain... it will cost to much to do crash testing on a new engine... it will cost to much to tool the line for special engine/tranny packages..." HORSEPUCKEY!!! A simple cam change and chip flash can turn an amateur boxer into a lethal street fighter - I know, I've done it. So it will take $27-gazillion for GM to put a Vette-spec cam in the LS1, and then de-tune the beast via computer a bit? Pah-leeze.

You know what this all boils down to? Having a "CAN-DO" attitude. If GM and certain individuals inside wanted to show the purists some gratitude for their loyalty and support, I don't think anything short of a nuclear holocaust could prevent such a small project from happening successfully.

Like many others, I'm getting kind of tired of this whole rhetorical thing. I grew up in an old-style home with old style values, and I see some good lessons in this situation that my old values apply to very well...
1) You reap what you sew. Sew nothing, reap nothing.
2) Treat others as you want them to treat you. (i.e. loyally)
3) The customer is ALWAYS right, especially the customer with cash in hand.
and probably the best one...
4) You gotta give a little to get a little.

So with that, for a while I'm checking out of this furious debacle that has grown from some good ideas being tossed about. Looks like we got some time to let things sink in anyways... 2006, 2007 maybe?

You guys make it sound so complicated..

"all that has to happen"

GM picks a Series and Class to compete the next gen f-bod in. Something that isn't too pricey or exotic, and too insane on parts.. like SCCA T2, the current LS1 Camaro's do pretty well today in that.. or maybe NASA AI.. or perhaps Motorola Cup, stock class...

GM funds a racing team, with an outside shop, capable of manufacturing parts in a relatively small #'s, and throw them a few GM engineers.

This team, GM engineers, and shop work together in fabricating and selecting parts to make this car into a pure roadracer, according to the class rules.

GM funds this team to go out and win races

After a good season or two, they take what they've built and used, rollcage, seats, harness, coolers, custom brackets, ducts, cams, springs, etc and make them available thru GMPP.. GMPP handles all the orders while the team, shop, engineers actually make/order and QA the parts.



Local club racer, orders these parts, like a rollcage, seats, harness, and fire supression, coolers, brackets follows the guidelines and installs it himself/local shop.. assured that his setup is has been well engineered and tested on the track, everything is going to fit together retlatively well, so the driver can concentrate on racing on the track, instead of the car's core setup.. (overheating, oil starvation, safety, etc)


Profits for the parts should go to GMPP marketing (as in processign the orders, and getting everyhing setup) and fudnign the shop and the team for making and QAing everything.


Sponsering the actual team and engineers for racing, can be seperate.. It would help to also make a deal to have this racing series have good coverage, like on the network channels.. A few Camaro ads in between, and a Camaro taking the checkered flag with media coverage on the race would be grab attention..

Oh, and in a faster class, do the same with the Corvette..

and keep LeMans Vette too..

In fact, do that for all GM vehicles, including trucks.... that can be your unified advertising campaign for cars and trucks. :D

ProudPony.....you are awesome, man!

I agreed with every syllable.

and they can race it in the ALMS gt class.