Like I said...

... the spreadsheet is done.

I need some computer genius to convert it into a .gif or .jpg file so that it can be posted as an attachment and people without Excel can read it.

If you're not a computer genius, maybe you know one.

I can barely turn these things on.

Mail it to chris@machined.net -- I'll convert it for you. (But I can't host it, this is only a DSL line, and a very very slow one at that.)

I can convert it to HTML (web page), graphic (JPG, PNG, GIF, etc.), or PDF. So whichever's best for you.

.....send it to me at dougharden@earthlink.net

I can host it and convert it.

Could always just print it out and scan it.

Fired it off to CMC a minute ago.

I forward it to you Doug as soon as I get it back.

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
Could always just print it out and scan it.

Like I said, I'm at the shallow end of the gene pool where computers are concerned.

A veritable computational Cro-Magnon.

Eh, computers suck anyway.

PacerX- I sent the conversion back. The HTML version should be fine, if not I can fine-tune it some.

.....send me the Excel spread sheet too....I might convert it to different formats....like a pdf and also offer the original Excel file too.

Originally posted by Doug Harden
.....send me the Excel spread sheet too....I might convert it to different formats....like a pdf and also offer the original Excel file too.

Already got the PDF (as well as PostScript) covered as well, actually. :)

I think CMC converted it to all of them, but probably still needs a host.

Here's the linky:

http://www.machined.net/~chris/fbody/

Oh yeah, the "Fix This Stuff Next Time" spreadsheet will be done shortly.

I'll need a host for that too.

One comment:
Given how nasty the previous Z28 vs. SS posts have gotten, I would recommend avoiding the issue entirely. It was written for four option levels, and you all know where I fall in that argument. SO - take a hard look at the base car and the "Berlinetta".

It doesn't have to be called Berlinetta, it just sorta fit. If the performance options are to be discussed, please keep it to the hardware and avoid the other debate.

Other notes:
1) Wheel and tire size. No wheel goes over 18", and even then only in the rear. My perspective is that wheels over 18" are a waste of weight and money. Others may disagree.

2) The axel ratios are an approximation. As the diameter of the wheel goes up, you can get away with a numerically higher gear and still get a reasonable final drive ratio. My guess is that with an 18" wheel and tire, a 4.11 whould end up around a 3.73-3.90.

3) WHATEVER engine is available in whatever body, the cost to upgrade from the 250hp to 275hp or 375hp to 415hp SHOULD BE relatively low. Much like an LT1 to LT4 conversion or LS1 to LS6. Part of the trick needs to be allowing the dealers to do this upgrade and roll it into the financing WITH A WARRANTY. Added displacement IS NOT the way to do this as I reconsider it.

4) I polled for the HUD previously. Results seemed to be that most liked them, or had never owned a car with one. Personally, I think the HUD is critical and should be added.

5) I've debated in my head an interior feature, and have come to the conclusion that they ALL should have it - a C3 styled "performance plate" mounted to the center console that includes:

Horsepower @ rpm
Torque @ rpm
Displacement
Final Drive Ratio
ETC...

6) Another added feature: Defeatable DRL's/Twilight Sentinel. Everybody wants to be able to turn their own lights off, especially military guys that have to approach gates all the time. The guards get agitated if you don't. Support for this was universal.

7) Make the "Berlinetta" and other cars come stock with Euro-spec interiors (ECE 17.04) and lighting. Then export them.

8) I added wheel options, but kept them within reason. 1LE gets specific (17" front, 18" rear) wheels.

9) Speaking of 1LE - NO stampings for trailing arms in the rear. Welded tubes only. Seriously consider welded tubes in the front for the upper and lower control arms and "K" member, please. Folks will pay for it. Lighter + stiffer = a winner.

..if you don't mind...I'll also host them on one of my sites.

Originally posted by Doug Harden
..if you don't mind...I'll also host them on one of my sites.

Actually I'd prefer it! You know, the candid shot of the Chevy Cobalt is still getting a lot of hits and at times noticably slows down my connection. Hopefully soon enough I'll be able to afford a bigger pipe (as it were).

Thanks!

Here's a link to the files and the notes just posted by PacerX.

http://www.hardenmotorsports.com/5th%20Gen%20Camaro%20Option%20Proposal.htm

Ok, some good stuff here.

I agree with PX, as far as powertrain.....we should be basing this on two displacements. One V6, one V8.

We're sticking with the HF base motor?

If we think that their is no chance of GM using that in Camaro....should we rethink that?

Where can we find more info on the 3.5L and 3.9L V6 engines?

I'd like to say that you misspelled "RS" as "Berlinetta", but more importantly:

The 'sport cloth' ought to be sport cloth. Look at Lexus IS300 and BMW roadsters to see what I mean. And then offer it on the top-model car, because with all that cornering G-force, you'll need the grippiest, most bolstered seating you can get your hands (or butt) on.

(Just my opinion.)

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
Where can we find more info on the 3.5L and 3.9L V6 engines?

I tried to find a link for you, but I can't find anything where all the info is on one site.

Basically the HV 3.5 and 3.9 are evolutions of the current pushrod 60* V6.

For this discussion...if we're considering this engine family....anything over 230-250 hp will require some forced induction system.

Originally posted by cmc
I'd like to say that you misspelled "RS" as "Berlinetta", but more importantly:

Please let it go. It's not really an issue - GM will figure out the appropriate name.

Berlinetta :yuck: :barf:

I think just about any other name would be better.

Originally posted by Z28x
I think just about any other name would be better.

PLEASE LET IT GO. The name DOESN'T MATTER. What is important is the IDEA behind the car.

I noticed you used the 5 sp auto for the z28/ss, why not the 6 sp auto?

Originally posted by Donutboy97
I noticed you used the 5 sp auto for the z28/ss, why not the 6 sp auto?

Look again....it's the 6speed Manual for the Z28/SS 5 speed is automatic.

And the seats? Anybody else think that's worth bringing up or should I just drop it?

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
Look again....it's the 6speed Manual for the Z28/SS 5 speed is automatic.

I know, but I was referring to the new 6 spd auto that GM is developing

We'll have to avoid hypothetical transmissions as much as possible, I can update as necessary when the time comes - but I'm pretty sure a 5sp high capacity automatic is coming since the 5L40E is already in production... for BMW and CTS (maybe others...).

I thought there was no DOHC 3.5 and that the DOHC motor was 3.6 liters. Not that it is a big deal but I just want to clarify this if it is true.

Everything looks pretty impressive. I really like some of the performance options like gear ratio, and true duals. Now we just have to make them do it. I think we will have done most of the work for GM in building a new Camaro. :)

K, if it's a 3.6 I'll change it.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I think we will have done most of the work for GM in building a new Camaro. :)

LOL!!! We wish!!

PacerX....that's a great job on that spreadsheet. I'd love to see those options on a Camaro. Make mine Z28!

now combine that with factory supported racing in a popular class or two, with the racing parts and safety equipment used available from GMPP/thru your dealer..... and integrate all that in the marketing campaign...

Nice packaging ...but not nice enough to pry any cash out of my pocket.

1. If we were to replace the SS convertible ...
the passenger seat would need to be available with 6 way power adjust as well. Additionally on the seat recliner, infinitely adjustable is more important to me than power adjustable .. and the driver/passenger MUST mirror this feature ...otherwise my wife vetos!

2. If we were to replace the Zed28 Hardtop ....
the 40 HP difference between the Z28 & SS would have to be "lid and exhaust" horsepower that can be easily reproduced aftermarket. What I would much rather see would be a Z28 "track pack" that would offer the SS performance items, the 1LE items plus a couple of extras; pedals, seats (that are 5 pt harness compatible) and a bunch of bells and whistles deletes to the base Camaro equipment level.

I still have a problem with a 275 HP six. Why on earth should a V6 "base" Camaro have near as much HP as my 95 Z/28?

Based on those options... I guess I'm gonna have to buy an SS. :(

Originally posted by poSSum
Nice packaging ...but not nice enough to pry any cash out of my pocket.


2. If we were to replace the Zed28 Hardtop ....
the 40 HP difference between the Z28 & SS would have to be "lid and exhaust" horsepower that can be easily reproduced aftermarket. What I would much rather see would be a Z28 "track pack" that would offer the SS performance items, the 1LE items plus a couple of extras; pedals, seats (that are 5 pt harness compatible) and a bunch of bells and whistles deletes to the base Camaro equipment level.

Great!:thumb:

Alittle off topic....but how about a factory backed racing series.

Maybe the haydays of Trans Am are over....but a '80s style John Player or Motorola Cup style series would get me excited.

Originally posted by jg95z28
I still have a problem with a 275 HP six. Why on earth should a V6 "base" Camaro have near as much HP as my 95 Z/28?

The base V6 in the 4th gens out-powers a large majority of the high performance cars from the previous generations, particularly the early 3rd's and late 2 gens. A real-deal 200hp was nothing to sneeze at in 1983.


Originally posted by jg95z28
Based on those options... I guess I'm gonna have to buy an SS. :(

Let's, pretty please, NOT go there.

Also....

I'm not too much into superfluous badging.
ie...if the 1LE package is ordered, no need for an extra badge IMO, those with any interest will know what it is, without a callout..

Originally posted by poSSum


1. If we were to replace the SS convertible ...
the passenger seat would need to be available with 6 way power adjust as well. Additionally on the seat recliner, infinitely adjustable is more important to me than power adjustable .. and the driver/passenger MUST mirror this feature ...otherwise my wife vetos!

1) Passenger 6-way = $$$$ and complexity. I gave yer wife an adjustable lumbar... tell her to suck it up and be a trooper. ;)

I'll be standing WAY over here.

2) The only really acceptable infinitely adjustable recliner in the North American market is the PL Porter unit and it's dervatives... unless you want to buy the one I patented for a former employer.

Infinitely adjustable fore/aft and tip/tilt is a major mechanical pain in the ass - at that point you go power and call it even.

Minor issue with the PL Porter style units - the spring used to polish the rod it operated on after a few bazillion cycles (springs are hella-hard, the rod ain't...). Once it did that, it couldn't hold as well on the rod and bad things start to happen. I like my idea better, of course.

Hrumph... come to think of it... I never got my plaque for that... maybe they didn't patent it.

If not, it's public domain now because it was disclosed. Email/PM me for details.

I did a fore/aft track with it also, at least mentally.

Originally posted by Ken S
now combine that with factory supported racing in a popular class or two, with the racing parts and safety equipment used available from GMPP/thru your dealer..... and integrate all that in the marketing campaign...

This is a good point.

There needs to be a Camaro class in drag racing, like the Pro 5.0 class. The basically defunct truck class that Lingenfelter used to run in would be a good target.

Oh yeah... it sure as HE!! better be faster than the Sport Compact classes.

Add to that the idea of a Showroom Stock racing class and take IROC back - if it still survives.

Originally posted by PacerX
1) Passenger 6-way = $$$$ and complexity. I gave yer wife an adjustable lumbar... tell her to suck it up and be a trooper. ;)


Lessee....

"she" has an Envoy instead of a nice little car based SUV 'cuz it tows the Camaro better.
"he" has a Sonoma so he doesnt' have to put jerry cans in her Envoy.
"he" has a Z28 hardtop (with a pretty generous mod budget) so that "she" doesn't have to live with a roll bar in the 'vert.
"he" has an SS 'vert 'cuz well, isn't that what guys do for their 2nd childhood?
"she" accepts that every vacation (which come is 2 or 3 - one week blocks e every year) includes driving at least 1,000 miles each way because there happens to be some sort of Camaro gathering that "he" would like to attend.

Bottom line ..."she's" not going to be asked to "suck it up" ...."he'll" get a 383 for the hardtop and a set of Recaro's for the 'vert instead :p

I figure I'm being pretty generous ...Chevy can get either the Convertible OR the 1LE right ...and probably get a sale. But "getting it right" is imperative. ;)

...PacerX....if you make any changes to the spreadsheet...just e-mail them to me and I'll revise the web site stuff.:D

Originally posted by Doug Harden
...PacerX....if you make any changes to the spreadsheet...just e-mail them to me and I'll revise the web site stuff.:D

You got it bro.

Pleae take these thoughts into consideration...

Won't the V6 and V8 both be SFI? Pretty much every gas engine is SFI now, so why even mention that?

why even bother with a 5 speed manual? I know the tooling is paid for many times over, but it would be easier to just put the 6 speed in every Camaro ordered with a stick. Plus, that would help with CAFE ;)

ALSO, why not have the standard gear ratio be the 3.42? It would also help with CAFE. Let 3.73s be optional for all models. I have noticed that in today's market, small motored vehicles often have much steeper gears. I can get many exampls if you wish...

Positraction should be standard for all models. It would simply be easier to do at the factory. 1 differential for all models instead of 2. After all, the base Camaro is still a sports car.

I am a proponent for an optional "better" brake package, but why 2 of them? In fact, if every model other than the base model has better brakes, why even offer the regular brakes on the base model? That's more cost. I think ALL Camaros should have EXCELLENT brakes. Think of this... your son or daughter wants a new Camaro for their first car. As a parent, you probably don't want to pay the insurance on the high power model and you realize that accidents happen to everybody, so you put them in a base model Camaro. Which brake package would you want them to have? :think:
IMHO The only benefit of giving the base car subpar brakes would be so it can have 16" wheels.
And since I'm all about reducing the number of different components on this car to keep teh overall price down, I question why a 16" wheel is even needed anymore? By the time the Camaro comes out, how many new cars will still riding on 15s or 16s? The same cost would go into designing a 16" wheel as a 17" wheel, but if more of your models use 17s, then they will be able to use the same tires.

Back to brakes, what would be different in the "1LE Ultra Performance Brake Package" ???

Cruise control should be optional for the base model.

You have "Sport Appearance Package" optional on the Z28, but then have this "Z28 Appearance Package (*can be combined with Sport Appearance Package)" So don't make the Sport appearance optional on the Z.


If you haven't noticed, I am all for making even the base Camaro a real sports car. This version of the car would compete against all kinds of import competition. yes, the "Berlinnetta" package would help out, but even the base Camaro needs to be able to hold it's own against the top of the line Civic. Or maybe at least the Si version. The Berlinnetta should be able to make short work of the Type-R Civic.

All in all, by making the base model better, you make every model better.

Yes Sir,
I think I could put something together with those options that would make me happy.

Oh yeah an the RPOs for the engines should be:
SS: LS7 (6.4L) or LS2 (6.0L) rated at 425HP
and
Z28: LS6 (5.7L) rated at 400HP

Originally posted by AdioSS
Pleae take these thoughts into consideration...

Won't the V6 and V8 both be SFI? Pretty much every gas engine is SFI now, so why even mention that?

Most likely they would be, but if you watch the nomenclature in many manufacturer's brochures they tend to keep the alphabet soup down to a dull roar. Imagine reading this:

"3.5L SFI VVTi DOHC 90* V6 w/ DOD"

I've got an engineering degree and it takes me 5 minutes to sort through that mess.



Originally posted by AdioSS
why even bother with a 5 speed manual? I know the tooling is paid for many times over, but it would be easier to just put the 6 speed in every Camaro ordered with a stick. Plus, that would help with CAFE ;)

Throwing a T56 behind the V6 would be pretty expensive. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, but the business case would have to work out to justify it.



Originally posted by AdioSS
ALSO, why not have the standard gear ratio be the 3.42? It would also help with CAFE. Let 3.73s be optional for all models. I have noticed that in today's market, small motored vehicles often have much steeper gears. I can get many exampls if you wish...

1) Gear ratios are an approximation.

2) GM, because of they make the best production motors on the planet, tends to have their torque curves in the right places - other manufacturers don't. This allows GM to run a numerically lower final drive in many cases and get better fuel economy while still laying the smack down on the bad guys.

This is EXACTLY why 2001 Cobras match 2001 SS's out of the hole - and get whacked up top. The Cobra has a MUCH HIGHER final drive than the 3.42 I got stock. When I was stock, we'd run pretty much even in 1st, I'd pull slowly in second, and in third it was "SEE YA LATER BUB!".

BMW M3's have the same problem.

A rule of thumb with racing a 4th gen car was:

"If we're even through second, I'll dust him in third."

3) Big wheels and tires push the actual final drive ratio down. GM Powertrain would spend LOTS of time and money figuring out what is appropriate for each combination, but I'm willing to bet you won't see anything radical like a 4.56, and the base car probably won't get over a 3.42 - if the wheels and tires stay the same height.



Originally posted by AdioSS
Positraction should be standard for all models. It would simply be easier to do at the factory. 1 differential for all models instead of 2. After all, the base Camaro is still a sports car.

If the business case can justify a posi standard in the base car, I say go for it. If not, then the base cars get the peg-leg.



Originally posted by AdioSS
I am a proponent for an optional "better" brake package, but why 2 of them? In fact, if every model other than the base model has better brakes, why even offer the regular brakes on the base model?

Cost.



Originally posted by AdioSS
That's more cost.

Nope.

Z28/SS/Berlinettas would be the cars that need beefy brakes - and the buyers of those cars will pay for them. The base car can't justify the cost and the weight, and the 1LE is going to be expensive.



Originally posted by AdioSS
I think ALL Camaros should have EXCELLENT brakes. Think of this... your son or daughter wants a new Camaro for their first car. As a parent, you probably don't want to pay the insurance on the high power model and you realize that accidents happen to everybody, so you put them in a base model Camaro. Which brake package would you want them to have? :think:

My son or daughter IS NOT getting a RWD high-performance car for their first car.

They're getting an el cheapo FWD slug with a manual transmission (like my current beater Cavalier - which is EARMARKED for my daughter to learn with) so they can learn to drive safely.

Again, the base car cannot justify the cost and the weight. We have CAFE to think about too.



Originally posted by AdioSS
And since I'm all about reducing the number of different components on this car to keep teh overall price down, I question why a 16" wheel is even needed anymore? By the time the Camaro comes out, how many new cars will still riding on 15s or 16s? The same cost would go into designing a 16" wheel as a 17" wheel, but if more of your models use 17s, then they will be able to use the same tires.

Again, COST. You're building a $30,000 base car.



Originally posted by AdioSS
Back to brakes, what would be different in the "1LE Ultra Performance Brake Package" ???

My thought is to basically throw the C5/C6 brakes on the car with cross-drilled and slotted rotors and sticky pads. Honestly, the pad is really the majority of the difference. If you buy a 1LE, you better be ready to put up with some dust and regular pad changes.



Originally posted by AdioSS
Cruise control should be optional for the base model.

That could be included in an option package.



Originally posted by AdioSS
You have "Sport Appearance Package" optional on the Z28, but then have this "Z28 Appearance Package (*can be combined with Sport Appearance Package)" So don't make the Sport appearance optional on the Z.

This mimics the 4th gen - you could get the cladding package on a Z28, but not an SS. Z28's will have a separate appearance package anyway (badging and such, maybe a different spoiler).



Originally posted by AdioSS
If you haven't noticed, I am all for making even the base Camaro a real sports car.

I'm not. If you want a sports car, then pay for a sports car. We (the group) agreed that a V6 sports car was possible and slotted the "Berlinetta" idea for it, but Camaro IS NOT a Corvette. It must cater to a lower price point and have sporty performance.

The more expensive, higher optioned, more powerful cars handle the sports car segment, and we put a lot of brainpower into determining the features those should have.

The base car's target should be exceptional appearance, good handling, comfortable, low maintenance, adequate power and braking and above all reasonable cost.



Originally posted by AdioSS
This version of the car would compete against all kinds of import competition. yes, the "Berlinnetta" package would help out, but even the base Camaro needs to be able to hold it's own against the top of the line Civic. Or maybe at least the Si version. The Berlinnetta should be able to make short work of the Type-R Civic.

ANY Camaro's target IS NOT and SHOULD NEVER BE a Civic. That's what Cobalts are for. Base 4th gens already make short work of Civics.

The Berlinetta's target is the G35/350Z/WRX market. It should easily come in under the price of the Japanese competitors and provide better performance and features.

For the base car, we're aimed squarely at the V6 Mustang and Sebring market. I think the V6 Mustang and Sebring are, dare I say it, no hurdle whatsoever - a properly designed GM entry should blow them both away with ease in every respect.



Originally posted by AdioSS
All in all, by making the base model better, you make every model better.

Up to a point. Make it too expensive and nobody buys it. $30,000 is too much for a base Camaro.

Originally posted by PacerX
ANY Camaro's target IS NOT and SHOULD NEVER BE a Civic. That's what Cobalts are for. Base 4th gens already make short work of Civics.

That's not entirely true! The Civic Si is within a half a second of a V6 Camaro in acceleration and quarter mile (as close as a tenth depending on the magazine).

http://v6camaro.homestead.com/files/v6performance.htm
http://www.modernracer.com/hondacivicsi2002.html

The V6 Mustang is not the only competitor of the base Camaro. You've got to look at other "performance" cars in the ~$25k price range.

Acura RSX
BMW 3 series
Dodge Neon SRT4
Ford Focus SVT
Honda Accord Coupe
Honda Civic Si
Hyundai V6 Tiburon
Mazda6
Mazda Miata
Mazda RX-8
Mini Cooper S
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
Subaru Impreza
Toyota Camry Solara
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR-2
Volkswagen GTI
Volkswagen New Beetle Turbo

THESE are the cars and the types of cars that killed the F-body as we knew it. This is the Camaro's competition. And they are all priced under $30k in today's money.

By the way, of the cars I listed above, wanna guess how many have 6 speed manuals? About half...;)