What performance options should the "base" F5 have?

I'm pretty dead set against the base 5th gen being nothing more than a "secretary special".

Just guessing here....but I wouldn't be surprised if the base engine is the new HV 3.9 V6 with around 230 hp. That lots of power. In fact my '89 IROC came rated with 230 hp....and it was the hottest 3rd gen motor available with a 5 speed.

I think this is enough power to create some interesting performance packages with.

How's this?

F41 package:

-Faster ratio steering
-Retuned suspension (stiffer shocks, springs, anti-sway bars, etc.)
-17" wheels
-"Sport" muffler
-Performance axle ratio

I think an F41 performance package on a base V6 Camaro would make for a cool and popular, fun to drive car.

What other options should the base car have?

That sounds like some nice equipment for a base car.

Plus using the N/A V6 leaves the window open for a GM Performance Parts Supercharger to be offered through dealerships as an aftermarket product like Red Planet had talked about before.

That sounds like an interesting package. In fact, I think that with the addition of maybe 15-20hp and a different hood or gfx it would make a strong RS package. As much as many of us would like to have a blown 6 or small V-8 for an RS, I just don't see it happening. This sounds like a nice start Z284ever.


-Mike

i seriuously think that in order for it to compete, it will have to have atleast 260 hp. much less isnt considered a lot of power by todays standards...not that im complaining;)

definatly the lowest wheels should NOT be plastic wheels, especially poorly designed that scream of cheapness

also a visible stock exhaust tip, instead of one that comes angles down a few inches befor the rear bumper

I am going to say that even the base car needs dual exhaust. The stock one-side-turndown does not cut it at all. An engine that is producing those numbers, should have duals.
Optional 17's is good as well as all the other stuff. Maybe a better shifter option too. Also, I think a few cosmetic things could be good, but nothing too radicle that would upstage a Z28, SS, or the new RS. Maybe something like a different grill or revised spolier, something to that effect.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Also, I think a few cosmetic things could be good, but nothing too radicle that would upstage a Z28,

I agree. I'm not too much into BS fluff. If a base model were to have such an F41 package...people would easily be able to distinguish it by things like it's wheels.

I agree with the Z284ever. :bow:

Something I got to add concerns Z28. If this thing comes with 16" rims, I don't know what I am going to do. In all likelihood, not much, but I will definitely hate if GM did not make 17" wheels standard on Z28 and upper models. Look at Mustang GT - those wheels change the car so drastically! What a great way to design a package that actually appeals to the buyer.

The way I see it:

base model: 220 - 230HP
perf. package on base: 240 - 250HP
Z28: something north of 320 HP (more like Vette's 350, he he)
performance version (in all likelihood it will be SS, like it or hate it) make it 375 +.

I will be really happy with such offerings. Not only will younger crowd be able to afford a peppy 6 cylinder car (I don't really like the word 'peppy' but this time it will do), buyers of more performance oriented models should be able to upgrade their V6 or go with high performance 375+ HP models.

That's some dreaming. On a similar note, make sure those rear ends can take some power. Look at Ford - their 9" are bulletproof. I don't want to spend money for rebuilding the rear end just because I power slided in the rain a couple of times on STOCK, untouched LT1. :confused:

Originally posted by muckz
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Something I got to add concerns Z28. If this thing comes with 16" rims, I don't know what I am going to do. In all likelihood, not much, but I will definitely hate if GM did not make 17" wheels standard on Z28 and upper models. Look at Mustang GT - those wheels change the car so drastically! What a great way to design a package that actually appeals to the buyer.



Seventeens on a Z/28? I'm hoping for little better than that. According to BFG tire info....the base Mustang V8....the GT...will have 18's either standard or optional. I wonder what the Cobra will have?

Originally posted by Z284ever
Seventeens on a Z/28? I'm hoping for little better than that. According to BFG tire info....the base Mustang V8....the GT...will have 18's either standard or optional. I wonder what the Cobra will have?

Seeing how GM had been conservative with wheels, i doubt they'll introduce 18". Perhaps when everyone moves on to 19", as they are 1" behind.

I would love to see something like the Vette - 17" front, 18" rear. But then, they are not very user-friendly in the sense that you can't swap the front and the rear ones for a more even wear and tear.

Perhaps the top performance model will have 18" all around, yet at present I remain skeptical. I think the only realistic hope we can have is for 17" wheels to become standard on Z28.

Originally posted by muckz
Seeing how GM had been conservative with wheels, i doubt they'll introduce 18". Perhaps when everyone moves on to 19", as they are 1" behind.



Who knows. Maybe GM is beginning to come out of it's long lived "wheel stupor". The Silverado SS has 20's. The Impala and Monte Carlo will have available 17's.

18's on a future Z/28 seems reasonable too me....that is, unless GM blows it.

You really don't need to focus too much on wheel sizes. 17's are just fine if they look good! GM's wheel designs leave a lot to be desired and that's what I'm hoping improves. What good is just having a bigger crappy-looking wheel? I'd also like to see the design of the car before I automatically say the Z28 needs 18's.

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
You really don't need to focus too much on wheel sizes. 17's are just fine if they look good!


17's are just fine as an option for the base model. Even the Ford Focus has 17" wheels, nowadays.

I'm hoping for something more dramatic for Z/28. They just have to work out that unsprung weight issue.

What impact on performance would 18" wheels have? Seems to me that may be a lot of weight at the wheels. That can't be conducive to performance, can it?

Also model differentiation should be more than just a difference in HP available. I agree levels of HP should vary at least by 20HP, but there does need to be more....slight changes to front/rear facia is a good start.

230 HP is a good amount, especially if you're pricing it south of 20K! In the end it really depends on if there is a mid level car.

The F41 package above really looks a lot like the Y87....

18's would look great and definatly have an impact but I too was thinking about a performance disadvantage of those large 18's........................BUT, if those are just an option, that's fine and maybe the all-out high performance Z28 could have some lightweight magnesium 17's.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
18's would look great and definatly have an impact but I too was thinking about a performance disadvantage of those large 18's........................BUT, if those are just an option, that's fine and maybe the all-out high performance Z28 could have some lightweight magnesium 17's.

Magnesium wheels might be interesting, but I doubt we'd see that on a Camaro.

They were (are) available as an option on Corvette for $1500 additional.

Not too many sell...

I think they were a lot more than $1500 originally to boot... like $5000 if I remember correctly.

I don't think they have them anymore for the Vette. I like the idea of them and thought they looked better than the other Vette wheels until the Y2K Vette wheels came out. I only had a problem with the always-looks-dirty appearence of them.

I know they were very expensive but maybe if they are styled really well(I think that is the key) people will pay extra just to show that they have the best and because they can.

..............this is getting a little off topic.

17's are plenty big for the next generation Z28. 18's and up look ridiculous, imo. Plus, they're heavy as hell and ride rougher too boot. I breathed a sigh of relief when I heard the '04 GTO was losing those 18's, and I will do the same if the 5th Gen F-Body rolls out on 16's or 17's.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I don't think they have them anymore for the Vette. I like the idea of them and thought they looked better than the other Vette wheels until the Y2K Vette wheels came out. I only had a problem with the always-looks-dirty appearence of them.

I know they were very expensive but maybe if they are styled really well(I think that is the key) people will pay extra just to show that they have the best and because they can.


Ya , I agree with everything you are saying here... I just don't know how that kindof price tag for a wheel would fit in with a car half the price of a Corvette, when it didn't sell well at Corvette's price point...

FWIW: They are still available on Corvette (Coupe and Vert)...
http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/index.html

When the F5 comes out, we're going to get 2 models, tops. A base and a Z28 probably. They will add models as the years go by like they always do, trying to keep it fresh. They done it with the F4, they did it with the C5, they will do it with the F5.

My personal prediction goes something like this.

07 = base model(RS?) and Z28 no convertable some sorta pace car probably as well (Indy,Daytona, something)

08 = base model and Z28 both coupe or vert and maybe an SS

09 = all of the above with a definate SS, maybe a performance based V6, maybe a Z06ish or 1LEish Z28 with all the go fast stuff

10 = who knows

They gotta change stuff up every year so people will continue to want to get the latest and greatest!

Some thoughts on wheels.

The current Z06 wheels (which look identical to the previous Z06 wheels), are being manufactured by a different supplier. They are stronger, lighter, and cheaper than the previous Z06ers, thanks to new manufacturing techniques. Someone correct me if I'm wrong....but I believe that they are lighter than the previous magnesium wheels.

Eighteen inch wheels are common sized performance wheels nowadays. With new generations of low aspect ratio tires, with better ride and handling to match. They also provide room for very agressive brakes.

The low buck Mustang GT will have 18" wheels...the Cobra is rumored to have 20's. In addition to looks....we shouldn't leave the increased performance potential of larger wheels off the table.

Let's get out of the 1980's.

20's on a car is rediculus! They can keep those things.

I think the base model should NOT be called RS and should be a different model. I think there will be 3 models when it comes out and will be the same as we have now: base, SS, and Z28. Hopefully, there will be more to follow.

I doubt there will be any real performance avantage for going 17" rims.. 18" would be heavier and have more rotational inertia.. Sidewall would be shorter and stiffer, but at that point, you can argue its not going to help anymore..

You could still fit a nice 13" 4 piston brake setup under 17's, but clearance is tight....

big diameter rims are the highheels of the automotive world.

I wonder if GM would consider the vortec inline 6 as the base F-Body motor?

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL

I think the base model should NOT be called RS and should be a different model. I think there will be 3 models when it comes out and will be the same as we have now: base, SS, and Z28. Hopefully, there will be more to follow.

I tend to agree. I liked it when the base car was called Sport Coupe.

I also liked it better when the F41 suspension package was an option on the 3rd gen Sport Coupe.

Interestingly, when the 3rd gen RS came on the scene, the F41 package was dropped, and it's components became standard on the RS.

Originally posted by Z284ever
the Cobra is rumored to have 20's.

I find the notion of a Mustang rolling on "dubs" to be pretty rediculous. I think there's a fine line between a nice looking wheel and something that looks cartoonish (I'd like to use another word but I'd rather not offend anyone here...)

Make the wheels look nice, make sure they fill up a decent amont of the wheel well, get the right stance. I'm not going to obsess about an inch on the diameter of the wheel.

Who said that Cobra will have 20", or at least that it is rumoured to have such huge wheels? I surely hope this wasn't engineered on some hard core teenage Mustang board, and perhaps there's a more credible source. Still, even if such info came from someone somewhere at Ford, I highly doubt that FoMoCo is willing to package its Cobra with monstrosity wheels. I can understand 19", the likes of BMW and Porsche, but anything more - call me Gino. Include blue light bulbs for windshield washer nozzles, too.

On the topic of wheel sizes and side wall heights... It's been said that 18" wheels require shorter profile tires, at which point the ride gets to be more uncomfortable because less impact is absorbed by the tire and more is transfered to the shock/spring combo. If I remember, I think it was one of the big three magazines that said 18" and above - and the ride gets too uncomfortable. The ultimate judgment was that 17" was the best for appearance and drivability. At the same time, Dodge tuck's 20" wheel has no problems with harsh ride. Why? Even with 20" wheels, the truck has tall enough sidewall to absorb all such impact. What GM could do is go 18", but at the same time increase the overall diameter of the wheel (hence increasing sidewall height) to soften the impact. And play around with rear end gearing to offset any performance loss.

Now for all those asking why 18"? Well, for one, such wheel allows really aggressive brake setup. Not that 99.9% of buyers will need race brakes, but the few enthusiasts taking the car to the track will appreaciate the room to go big on the brakes.

This is why, IMO, 17" should be standard, with 18" being a part of an optional performance package, or something. I think such would be the perfect solution. Besides, this should save about $1500 for those who couldn't care less for chromed wheelz.

On the topic of GTO - I am disappointed that GM did not include 18" wheels. Putting 225 width rubber all around :confused: I pity the fool who drops the clutch on that car :wink: Looking at the width of the GTO, I am wondering if those wheels don't look like skinnies :irk:

earlier in the thread someone said that the wheels for camaros look bad. imo, i cant think of one year where i didnt like the wheels they had, f1-f4 with the exception of the cheap plastic like wheels on the base camaro f4.
also, you gotta think, 18's and everythign helps handling, bigger brakes, etc. BUT, it also makes it harder to turn those big wheels and it does make the ride rougher since it would have to have low profile tires. heres my equation,
smaller rims= easier to turn from a stop, less top speed, poor handling
bigger rims= harder to turn from a stop, higher top speed, better handling
its up to you, weigh the tradeoffs of each
imo, go with 18's as an option

also, how the heck is the cobra gonna have 20's?
its gotta have enough room for suspension travel, and its gotta have performance in mind, which turning 20's isnt exactly an easy task for an engine
not to mention it cant be "goofy" looking if they want it to sell

the base Camraro should come with rims standard, NO HUB CAPS. make 17" an option and duel chrome exhusts a option, or make atleast the exhuat standard, even the 04 Grand Prix has twin pipes with nice tips.

i agree, it was sad to see 3rd gens (all models, even v6's) have dual tailpipe exhaust, and then the 4th gens get these measly one exhaust outlet thing

I dont think its really necessary for a performance base model to have an upgraded suspension. If you want performance, go for the Z28 or SS. Why not just make the base model already have a decent suspension from teh get go? Note how the 350Z shares the same suspension all the way up to the Track model. Now of course a V6 F-body would need a different set of springs than its V8 brother, but still none the less, if you want it to sell make it perform.

I think the only options for the base shoudl be wheels (17s), possibly an additional 10-15hp (exhaust/intake upgrade maybe?) and a rear end ratio upgrade. Also, things like spoilers and body kits would be nice so the car could be dressed up.

You can't really compare the base Camaro with a 350z. All models have the same engine, trans, and things like that so it is like a Z28 with just upgraded suspention and all that. The 350z is really just one model with different options.

I think a suspention package is good for the base car because there still are people out there that can not afford a Z28 for various reasons and have to get a base model. Also, there will be kids whose parents will buy them a car and since the kid has to get a base model, he/she can opt for a sporty package that will let them have a more pleasant driving experience. Before I got my Z28, I could not afford the inssurance and I had to get a V6. So I got a 94' M5(used). I loved that car and would have liked to have the Y87 package if it was available.

I just think it would be a good thing so people don't feel like they are "getting stuck" with a base model.

Originally posted by bigsteve7
I dont think its really necessary for a performance base model to have an upgraded suspension. If you want performance, go for the Z28 or SS. Why not just make the base model already have a decent suspension from teh get go?

You're right it should. But I don't see anything wrong with offering an upgrade for about $500-$800. It would make the base model alittle special.

Wow, so many different opinions, but we see to be concluding that the base model should have 17" as optional.

Then, Z28/SS should have 17" standard, with 18" as optional.


On the topic of turning... What makes a wheel hard to turn is the width, not so much the rim height. The wider the front tire, the harder it is to turn.

Originally posted by muckz
Wow, so many different opinions, but we see to be concluding that the base model should have 17" as optional.




I'd say that you're right.

Put that in the "DONE" folder.:thumb:

Agreed!

when i say turn, you do know i mean like rotate?
not like going into a corner and turning

Originally posted by unvc92camarors
when i say turn, you do know i mean like rotate?
not like going into a corner and turning

OK :) now I know what you meant. Well, you are right because I assume that as we go up in rim size, the weight increases. Assuming, though, that we could use some lightweight materials for the larger rims and if we could keep the weight increase to a minimal (if at all), then I do not see any impact when it comes to rotational/centrifugal forces.

Someone who went from stock rims on F4 to 315/35-R17 wheels measured a 6 or 7 HP loss on the dyno. That's at the rear wheels! But it does help with traction, no doubt about it. Check it out, looks good:

http://u2.netgate.net/~jshapiro/z28/315s/index.html

edit: pardon me, the loss was of 3.6 HP and 3.5 lb/ft. He widened his rims, not replaced them. Here's the link:

http://www.ws6.com/wheels.htm

The base model needs 17" wheels stock, a base V6 with a deal installed supercharger like with the ecotec. The SS/Z28 needs 18" wheels stock. The base model needs to be desirable and I also think that it could use a factory optioned sport suspension system.

Eh... I dunno about all this with 17"ers on a base model.

That is going to increase price of the base car (something everyone agrees has to hit it's target), plus make those who use the car shell out bigger bucks when they need to buy new tires.

16"ers are more logical here, IMO.

18" rims are too much and unneccesary IMO.

These 18's are too much?
http://www.tirerack.com/upgrade_garage/WheelSearch.jsp?autoMake=Chevrolet&autoModel=Camaro+Z28&autoYear=2002


EDIT: You must manually click on the 18" wheels.:)

Yes. :)

"What performance options should the "base" F5 have?"

To stay relevant to the post, 18's have no place on the base car.

17's maybe as an option. Standard should be 16's.

The base care shoudl have some sort of performance package that is better than what Y87 was. The only important thing you really got was a LSD, and 3.42's if you drove an auto. Some kind of engine enhancement would be nice. Maybe have a different cam. At least with the 3800 Series II (L36) there is much room to improve performace considering the wimpy cam it is given from the factory. A GM backed supercharger package would have been great. This is the application where it was needed moreso than on such cars as the Grand AM.

Originally posted by Z284ever
These 18's are too much?
http://www.tirerack.com/upgrade_garage/WheelSearch.jsp?autoMake=Chevrolet&autoModel=Camaro+Z28&autoYear=2002


EDIT: You must manually click on the 18" wheels.:)

Wow, they actually do look awesome.

People, people. All we are saying is that 17" should be OPTIONAL on the base model, NOT standard. Hence if buyers want low cost base model they will not be charged for 17". But the ones that want those rims - well, they pay an upgrade fee and get them.

So what about a limited slip differential.....................should it be standard? I am thinking that with increased power and maybe a reduction in weight, this might be necessary. In my girlfriends 90' TBI Formula, the car does not have the limited slip and it really hurts the car. I can't give it any gas from low speeds around a turn without it spinning like crazy. Also, unless it is on a really good surface, you can't floor it from a standstill without the same problem. All of this from a car with an A4 and 2.73's. So if this is the case, a car with 50-600 more hp and probably the same level of torque would really benefit from this, especially for the manual.

I guess I am going to say that it should be standard. I am thinking that the added cost would only be about $100 if every Camaro had this. I don't like the idea of adding too much to the base car but this might be necessary...............or, they could make it part of the base performance package and try to get people to spend the extra dough on those options.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
So what about a limited slip differential.....................should it be standard?
I guess I am going to say that it should be standard.

Oh, heck yes!! My 98 V6 was harder to drive in slippery conditions than my Z28 because of this. If the auto shifted during a turn in the rain and you had just a bit too much gas than there was a chance of losing the rear end....I had to be extrememtly cautious in my V6.

Limited Slip Standard. No question.

Yeah, I also forgot to mention that the Formula is bad in crappy weather becasue of this deficiency. I was going to ask how the 3.8 Camaros did because I have never driven one, just the 3.4 that I used to own. And if the 3.8 had problems, them the new base car would have it worse.

During an interview with John Heinricy (F-car chief engineer), afew years ago...he said he was considering making available a 1LE type package on the base V6 4th gen.

I always thought that was a neat idea...eventhough it never saw fruition. I could imagine such a package really interesting autocrossers .....especially if they didn't want to spend the bucks on a *Z/28 1LE.



****EDIT: But of course we all agree that future Z/28's should incorporating all 1LE gear as part of "the package"........right?****

future Z/28's should incorporating all 1LE gear as part of "the package"........right?****

A little off topic...but I'd agree conditionaly...

If Z/28 is a purpose built performer/road racer than we also need a more "comfy" model to incorporate both equipment that people wouldn't want on a Z/28 type car and a suspension that isn't bone jaring.

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
A little off topic...but I'd agree conditionaly...

If Z/28 is a purpose built performer/road racer than we also need a more "comfy" model to incorporate both equipment that people wouldn't want on a Z/28 type car and a suspension that isn't bone jaring.

I agree completely and unconditionally.:thumb:

Originally posted by Z284ever
During an interview with John Heinricy (F-car chief engineer), afew years ago..



John Heinricy, eh? Hmm... don't .... trust...the.....guy.....who .....has.... RICY as part of his name.

Originally posted by muckz


John Heinricy, eh? Hmm... don't .... trust...the.....guy.....who .....has.... RICY as part of his name.



:eek: :eek: :lol: :lol: :bow: :bow:

Originally posted by muckz


John Heinricy, eh? Hmm... don't .... trust...the.....guy.....who .....has.... RICY as part of his name.

:lol: :lol: :lol: