Would you buy a supercharged Ecotec Camaro for $20K?

I'm wondering how many here would buy a supercharged Ecotec Camaro of around 230 hp for $20K?

I voted against.

My question is... would this supercharged 4 banger be the base model or the real deal?

Originally posted by HAZ-Matt
I voted against.

My question is... would this supercharged 4 banger be the base model or the real deal?

If by the real deal, you mean V8...the answer is no. This would be standard or optional on the base model.

That is exactly what I meant. I would be tempting, but I think I'd rather have something else.

A turbo or supercharged V6 would be better ;)

:no:

For me I would not concider buying one. I need a V8, thats fine if they offer it for the base model, as long as the Z/28 and or the SS have the V8

Originally posted by HAZ-Matt

A turbo or supercharged V6 would be better ;)

You won't get that for $20G's.

that would be a fine model if they wanted to offer it to women and those who don't want a v8.

"I" wouldn't buy a blown 4 in my Camaro, but if it offered a good package for others that'd be ok with me. Just one thing though, a blown 4 would imply a N/A 4 in the base car....an idea I'm not sure I like.

I voted Yes, although I would most likly only buy a V8 Camaro. Once you get a taste of the V8 you can't go back to the base car.

S/C I4 would be a ok substitute for a V6

No 4 bangers. That is just wrong. A Camaro is too big to have a 4 cylinder and the lack of low end torque will be evident. Even with the blower, I doubt it would be as fast as an NA V6. I'll take that V6 in any form over the I4. I realize that in the F5 GM might want to try some new stuff but I don't think that is a good place to go.

Hmmm....As in most polls I wish there was another option.

I would have voted for supercharged V6 model above the base or as an option for it. It would bring in people that wouldn't necessarily look at a Camaro. It could also be a very good bang for the buck option when you look into rodding it.

Time to grow a little with the times and hedge your bets. I really think it would make the car that much more competitive in the market place.

IMO a S/C option on the RS could be cool but I'd rather see the Camaro outdo the M*stang once again model for model N/A.

Originally posted by IZ28
I'd rather see the Camaro outdo the M*stang once again model for model N/A.

I find it hard to disagree with you, but I'm trying to think beyond just the stang. There are other models in the price range to think about too....RX-8, Z (even if it just seats 2), SRT-4, eclipse, and a host of other "performance oriented" cars in a similar price bracket.

Bragging rights are good, but in the end sales are king. If they can do it N/A kudos, but I remember the hype the Turbo Trans-Am made. Maybe a supercharger/turbo could bring that excitement to the lower price Camaro's. I think that's what Z284EVER was trying to shoot for with the Turbo 4 banger.

As far as Turbo 4 in Camaro, I think maybe it should be reserved for a sport compact dedicated to being an SRT-4 fighter.

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!

Bragging rights are good, but in the end sales are king. If they can do it N/A kudos, but I remember the hype the Turbo Trans-Am made. Maybe a supercharger/turbo could bring that excitement to the lower price Camaro's. I think that's what Z284EVER was trying to shoot for with the Turbo 4 banger.



That's what I was getting at. The last time a 4 cyl. appeared in an F-car, it was the old "Iron Duke". Really, that motor was only an economical prime mover.

GM is hoping the Ecotec will be percieved as a "performance" motor. What better way to get that point across than to put it in a "performance" car. And a S/C Ecotec should be market as an entry level "performance" pakage. It may be a good way to reach a new segment too.

I know GM will have the Cobalt SS and the Ion Redline and others. I've got to tell you though, if I had $20K to spend, and I were shopping those cars and the SRT-4 and others........I'd give this S/C 'd Camaro a look.

It was bad enough that we had the ole iron duke,leave it for something else...oh and put a rainbow sticker on the car while you're at it. :)

You mean to tell me...that if you were shopping for a performance FWD import....you wouldn't consider a RWD alternative?

....because, if I were looking at a performance version of an Eclipse, or an SER or whatever.....and I had a RWD alternative, it would be hard for me to resist.

I'd rather spend $20k on a clean & unmolested 1st gen Camaro.

Originally posted by jg95z28
I'd rather spend $20k on a clean & unmolested 1st gen Camaro.

Yeah.....but it sure would be a shame if it needed to be your daily driver.

Haha.. initially, I misread the title of this thread as "Would you buy a supercahrged ELECTRIC Camaro...."

Back to the subject at hand, it would have to have at least 225-250HP to be worthwhile and compete with the import offerings. Maybe for a daily driver. Then I'd buy a another with the V8 for show'n'go.

Originally posted by Z284ever
You mean to tell me...that if you were shopping for a performance FWD import....you wouldn't consider a RWD alternative? One I wouldn't be doing that in the first place,fwd import or otherwise, and second it would have at least a V6 but moreso a V8.If I were looking for a $20k import it would be an older porsche,rx7 or supra.Camaros aren't econos or tuners.They are an in-your face-fist in the gut if you piss me off-straightline performer-canyon carver and nothing less.

Not in a Camaro..

but maybe in another lighter weight rwd car with a power/weight ratio equiv to a 4th gen LS1 Camaro..

What about a a super charged Colorado 2.8L I4, that engine puts out 175HP in N/A form , that is more than the 3.4L V6 did in the 4th gen.

it would probably put out about 260HP+ with a blower

Originally posted by 91Zman
One I wouldn't be doing that in the first place,fwd import or otherwise, and second it would have at least a V6 but moreso a V8.



That's exactly what I mean. You are happy with the current Camaro paradigm. You wouldn't consider looking much beyond that formula.

Unfortunately, you and I and the rest of us don't seem to want to buy enough Camaros.

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to add a new and different Camaro model that might attract new enthusiasts to the Camaro camp. That's the point of this thread, I guess.

BTW, a couple of weeks ago at a cruise, I saw an 1986 Mustang SVO with a turbo 2.3. The owner said it runs low 13's.

I thought it was pretty cool.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Yeah.....but it sure would be a shame if it needed to be your daily driver. I wouldn't drive any supercharged car as a daily driver... period.

For $20K, you can get a clean unmolested 1st gen from $12-16K, and buy a clean used V6 4th gen for your daily driver.

That's two Camaros for the price of a supercharged rice-rocket.

Not a hard decision to make.

I think the real question that's being asked here is:

"Do you think that a supercharged/turbo Ecotec will add significant value and sales to the Camaro line?"

Not would you buy one (even though that's what the subject line reads) Almost everyone here, I'm sure, would opt for a V8. I really don't think that's up for dispute.

A lot of us have said that we need model differentiation and that that also needs to be displayed in additional power levels. Why not differentiate models further with how the power is made?

There is a need for this in the model line-up and Camaro needs to attract more and different customers. The image of a Camaro driver as a testosterone filled smart-a$$ punk drives more people away than it attracts. Give the masses a decently quick, less expensive, perfomance oriented model that stands out from the crowd with unique looks and power plant. cough...rs...cough...Don't worry, I'm sure you'll still be able to fill your power craving with a dang fast v8 model.

That said, get the execution right. If the car feels right and drives right than it could work.

Originally posted by jg95z28
I wouldn't drive any supercharged car as a daily driver... period.

For $20K, you can get a clean unmolested 1st gen from $12-16K, and buy a clean used V6 4th gen for your daily driver.

That's two Camaros for the price of a supercharged rice-rocket.

Not a hard decision to make.

If you're saying there's no market, than I'll respectfully disagree. What about all those people out there that buy brand new Eclipses, V6 Mustangs, Tiburons, etc., etc. Are they flocking to buy 35 year old cars and used 4th gen V6's? Nope.

To quote a recent movie:

"We're mass communicat'n here!"

5 points if you can guess the name.

Originally posted by jg95z28
I wouldn't drive any supercharged car as a daily driver... period.




Why not? There is nothing more complicated about their use or ownership.

I drove a VW Corrado G60 everyday for about 100,000 miles. The supercharger was absolutely trouble free.

Originally posted by Z284ever
That's exactly what I mean. You are happy with the current Camaro paradigm. You wouldn't consider looking much beyond that formula.

Unfortunately, you and I and the rest of us don't seem to want to buy enough Camaros.

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to add a new and different Camaro model that might attract new enthusiasts to the Camaro camp. That's the point of this thread, I guess.

BTW, a couple of weeks ago at a cruise, I saw an 1986 Mustang SVO with a turbo 2.3. The owner said it runs low 13's.

I thought it was pretty cool. ..and maybe you're not enough of a Camaro fan to realize that a s/c 4banger would be bad,uncamaro like and further hurt the camaro's image.If you want them to try something new with the Camaro shouldn't it be something like a new fuel injection system,factory headers(although 1stgens had them at one time),air filtration or a new ignition system?They could possibly do things to the new Camaro that people are doing to make it faster and if they(customers) want to add a S/C more power to them,pun intended.Those things,a new exterior/interior and maybe keeping the price low/lower could/would also attract new enthusiasts without scarificing or alienating it's current enthusiasts.

Exactly... it would be a neat car.. but don't call it a Camaro.

If I buy a Camaro, it'll have a V8.

Originally posted by 91Zman
..and maybe you're not enough of a Camaro fan to realize that a s/c 4banger would be bad,uncamaro like and further hurt the camaro's image.

Woah. Maybe you don't know just how big of a Camaro fan I am...so I'll let you slide on that.;)

I'll tell you some things that I think hurt Camaro's image though....well never mind, we'll need a whole new thread for that!

At any rate....is the Camaro's image so delicate, so fragile...that doing something slightly different, (we're not talking about an AWD crossover Camaro, after all), than what has been recently done, would really hurt it ....or will it actually help it!?

Is offering a powertrain (IN ADDITION TO THE TRADITIONAL V8 AND V6 MODELS),that GM plans to promote as a performance alternative, that would also interest younger and new entry level buyers in a Camaro so bad? I don't think so.

Personally...it's not a Camaro that "I" would necessarily buy....but then again, I'm not in the market to buy 100,000 Camaros either.

You know, I was just thinking about what could fall in between a V6 and a 4 banger.................what about the Turbo I-5 that is supposed to come out. That would definatly be different and I bet that the numbers would be pretty impressive and since it is not an I-4, Camaro people won't cringe at the thought of it and maybe the import people will see it as one step up from the run-of-the-mill 4 banger. Maybe it could be a new model between the RS(still hoping for a smaller V8) and the base V6 model.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Woah. Maybe you don't know just how big of a Camaro fan I am...so I'll let you slide on that.;)

So I was a little harsh,sorry.:)


I'll tell you some things that I think hurt Camaro's image though....well never mind, we'll need a whole new thread for that!

Sure would.

At any rate....is the Camaro's image so delicate, so fragile...that doing something slightly different, (we're not talking about an AWD crossover Camaro, after all), than what has been recently done, would really hurt it ....or will it actually help it!?

another new thread right there but would be wrong because it would probably hurt others feelings so :death: to that idea.

Is offering a powertrain (IN ADDITION TO THE TRADITIONAL V8 AND V6 MODELS),I understood that IT would be an addition to the current engine lineup.:) that GM plans to promote as a performance alternative, that would also interest younger and new entry level buyers in a Camaro so bad? I don't think so.

Yeah it would(to Us/currrent hardcore enthusiasts)not to mention what Ford fans would say and plus newbies probably don't know enough about the car's history to even care.

Personally...it's not a Camaro that "I" would necessarily buy.

Good. :)


...but then again, I'm not in the market to buy 100,000 Camaros either.

and putting a s/c 4banger in the lineup wouldn't greatly raise sales #'s that much either. :p

PEACE!

First of all, the only 5th Gen Camaro I will ever buy will be the V8 model. Does that mean I think the Camaro should be V8 only? Hell NO!! Most people here seem to not get it, in order for us V8 Camaro fans to have a inexpensive V8 Camaro we need a cheaper non-V8 Camaro. The base Camaro and RS should compete for sales with the RSX, Eclipse, V6 Mustangs, Tiburons, and WRX. These people don't want a used 1st or 4th gen Z28, they want a sporty new car that is fairly quick.

If they can make a S/C ecotec Camaro that is faster that the V6 mustang than I have no problem with it.


engines I would give the OK for the base model.

240HP S/C 2.2L ecotec
245HP 3.9L OHV V6

engines I would give the OK for the RS model.

315HP turbo 3.5L DOHC I5 (from the bel air concept)
285HP S/C OHV 3.5L V6 (from the G6 concept)
300HP S/C 3800

Just keep it simple and use the same old 3800 but add a blower.

240~ HP is fine for a base model. Kinda sucks to lose to a 3.5L Altima though.

You're right... a 4cyl blown Camaro WOULD bring new buyers who wouldn't have looked at a Camaro in the first place...

But... how many people would it turn away because of that same engine?

I wouldn't even consider the car. My F-Body doesn't buzz nor do I want it to.

Also, it's kind of unfair to compare the 20th TTA with a charged Ecotec... keep in mind the popularity of the GN/GNX before the TTA was released.

The HP/Torque of the GN/GNX/TTA was amazing considering ALL of the alternatives.

How many 200-250 HP 4cyls/6cyls are out there now? Too many. Also, last I checked no one is dropping their jaws because of this 'charged Ecotec.

No thanks. Gimme that good 'ol V8.

I say S/C the V6 in the RS as an option instead. :D

I say stay away from the 4. Do Camaro owners really want their car to sound like an import?Nope, no fartcans for us. I do like the idea of the turbo I5 though.
I'd say N/A V6 at 230 hp, 18-21k fully loaded
RS Turbo I5/ S/C V6 285-325, 23-25k fully loaded
N/A V8 Z28/SS 370-390hp, 28-32k fully loaded
Turbo OHV/DOHC V8 Z28/SS/make ZL1 regular production model if possible ~450+hp. 36-39k fully loaded.

Those seem to be reasonable figures (on the low side too) and priced to be a level up from each other where its an upgrade. I see each model being at least a 3-4k gap if not more though especially the highest model. I'm sure it would cost more than I speculate though.

SS can be a possible appearance package or production model if used. Thats enough differentiation and a wide range of possibilities and it can be done in a reasonably priced manner I think. I also have a lot of concepts floating around my head to. There havent been any yet that make me want to buy a new Camaro, need to make some...

S/C V6 :thumb: Just say no to Eco :)

Originally posted by Mikes25thAnnTA
But... how many people would it turn away because of that same engine?

.............................


No thanks. Gimme that good 'ol V8.

I don't think it would turn away any people, its not like they would be making that the only engine. Would you not buy a 390HP Z28 or SS because you don't like the engine they offer in the base car? I will also only be buying the V8 car no matter what GM puts in the base and mid range Camaro. I'd personally like to see a 240HP V6 in the base and a 300HP Forced induction motor (I5 or V6) in the RS or midrange car. If they do decide to go with a S/C I4 I won't mind as long as it puts out very competative performance #'s

One thing that I do hope they do is add a Forced Induction engine under the V8. I think this is important to capture a new segment of the market. hopfully it will be a S/C V6 or Turbo I5 and the price won't be too high.

how bout this?
jus throw the new 3.5L or the 3.6L in for a v6
they make...hmmm let me think..250hp roundabouts, maybe a lil more, i cant remember.
and they can stay n/a which is always a good thing;)

Originally posted by Mikes25thAnnTA
You're right... a 4cyl blown Camaro WOULD bring new buyers who wouldn't have looked at a Camaro in the first place...

But... how many people would it turn away because of that same engine?




That just doesn't make any sense to me. Are you saying people won't buy a V8 Camaro if another engine they don't like is available. That's like saying " I won't buy a black Camaro because they have a shade of red I don't like".

Splain it to me.:)

i think he means, it would be like downgrading a great car
it would be making itself more of a majority car, which the camaro is not
it makes its appeal to a minority of people, not everybody
i dont know how to "splain" it really

Originally posted by 91Zman

Yeah it would(to Us/currrent hardcore enthusiasts)not to mention what Ford fans would say and plus newbies probably don't know enough about the car's history to even care.

So, you're saying "hardcore enthusiasts"would find this (a powertrain that appeals to different car enthusiasts), so bad that they wouldn't buy a 400hp V8 over it? And you're afraid Ford fans would make fun of us? Am I understanding you correctly?


and putting a s/c 4banger in the lineup wouldn't greatly raise sales #'s that much either.


I could see if you said adding another powertrain package would cost too much, or it would overlap too closely with a V6 to be practical. But if they went and actually did it....and executed it correctly, do you really think no one would be interested in buying it?

Yeah, but it also has to appeal to a lot of people to keep it in production and to keep it inexpensive to the general public and to the real enthusiasts.

OK,plain and simple....It is just....WRONG.

You want to bring more/new people into the Camaro world....how about:
advertise-
low prices-
attractive exterior/interior-
larger variety of color choices-
model choices(sport coupe,type lt,RS,Z28,SS or combos of the models mentioned like RS/SS)
engines-base V6/V8(variety of hp ranging from 200 to 280) for the coupe,Type lt,RS
then the variety of H.O. V8s(hp ranging from 330-400+) for the high end models-Z28,SS and the RS or Type LT combo models like the 1stgens and 2ndgens had.If you want to add a s/c to any of these go ahead.I'd just like to see what the people that made fun of the '03 Cobra for having/needing a s/c to get decent hp out of their engine would say.

i'd have to say it would turn away hardcore enthusiasts because its like putting half an engine in the same car
and i would think there are more hardcore enthusiasts they want to sell to, and/or people sitting on the fence debating between stangs and camaros than there are people who want a 4banger camaro

Originally posted by unvc92camarors
i'd have to say it would turn away hardcore enthusiasts because its like putting half an engine in the same car
and i would think there are more hardcore enthusiasts they want to sell to, and/or people sitting on the fence debating between stangs and camaros than there are people who want a 4banger camaro

OK. Let's say I'm in the market for an '08 Z/28. I'm buying that car because it has everything I want. It has a 395 hp LS2, close ratio T56, big brakes, good suspension, 18" wheels, "special' driver's seat, cool styling. I love it, and I'm gonna spend...say $30k for it.

Now if Camaro also has a lower end performance package, with 230 horse Ecotec, 6 speed, 17" wheels ( think Chevy rendition of 924/944, 240SX, or Alfa Romeo GTV), for $20K....is that going to make me NOT buy the Z/28?


Don't be ridiculous guys. If you don't like 4 bangers that's one thing....but don't tell me that no one will buy them....or "hardcore" enthusiasts won't buy V8's, if an Ecotec is offered in a Camaro.

That old weezy 100hp Iron Duke didn't stop people from buying Z/28's and Trans Ams when it was available. The 2.3 I4 didn't stop people from buying 5.0 Mustangs either. In fact Ford stepped up a notch and offered a 2.3 Turbo in the SVO and for a couple of years in the GT.

I'm trying to think "out of the box" here.
There maybe lots of reasons for Camaro to NOT have an Ecotec......but I haven't heard one good one yet.

I'd never buy any camaro short of a z28 or SS. It's v8 or no camaro for me.

The S/c ecotec would make for a nnice base engine. But a well built 3.XL Sohc/Dohc v6, would be capable of making more power. Why settle for a sub-200 I4 (which is what the late-base 3.8L camaro made), when you can have a 250hp v6? For that reason, i'd say make the base engine a 3.6L or 3.9L 230-250hp v6, and let the v8's start from 300 on up.

The only reasons not to offer it IMO:

-There is not siginificant demand to support the cost of a Turbo/Supercharged I4 over other power plants.

-Offering a different power plant would present significant cost savings over a Turbo/Supercharged I4 or better fill the power-nitch needed for the Camaro.

If they do offer a 4 banger, I feel the first of many fart cannons I'll see affixed to the rear end of those cars... :o

Originally posted by Darth Xed
If they do offer a 4 banger, I feel the first of many fart cannons I'll see affixed to the rear end of those cars... :o Yeah really..:o :alert:

Supercharged eco for 20k? Great idea! Calling it a Camaro. That's a sin.

Well...what can I say. It seems we see things from different perspectives.

When I say 4 cylinder Camaro...alot of you think clapped out Civic with a fart can and neon lights.

I see it differently. I think of all the neat and fun 4 cyl RWD cars of the past.

I think Porsche 924/944/968, original RWD Celica, Mustang SVO, Alfa Romeo GTV, Nissan 240SX, Cosworth Vega. A S/C Ecotec Camaro would be in good company with these cars.

My personal "big take away"from reading all of these posts is....Ecotec debate aside.....Camaro could stand to benefit from a broader enthusiast base.

Leave this package for the Solstice, and not the Camaro.

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
If you're saying there's no market, than I'll respectfully disagree. ...

The question was "Would you buy a supercharged Ecotec Camaro for $20K?"

I'm just saying I wouldn't.

But there definitely is a market for one.

Yep, I'd buy it - as long as it had a tranny and rear end capable of handling some severe engine enhancements (i.e. none of this weak-ass 4L60/7.625" stuff). I'm also going on the assumption that this thing weighs not much more than 3000 lbs.

Combine all of these, and you've got a light, robust, fast, and easily-modded car. Sounds like Camaro DNA to me. As much as I like V8s, I drive cars and not just engines, so the overall performance of a given package is what interests me.

Originally posted by Z284ever
That just doesn't make any sense to me. Are you saying people won't buy a V8 Camaro if another engine they don't like is available. That's like saying " I won't buy a black Camaro because they have a shade of red I don't like".

Splain it to me.:)


And now you know why I shake my head (and want to bang it into a wall) when I read some threads on this board..........

I don't know what you had in mind when you asked the question Z284ever, but let me throw a few things out there........

I don't THINK that Z284ev. is asking you if YOU'D necessarily buy a 4 cylinder supercharged Camaro........assuming that you are on this board tends to mean that you are a performance car enthusiast....and I would suspect that 99 percent of you would want the car with a big honking V8....the more hp the better.......I think what he's saying (and he's correct) that in order to get the volume up over a period of years.......the car has to appeal to a wider audience. Not everyone wants a big honking V8...if that were the case, all Mustangs would be sold with V8s....they aren't....the majority of them are sold with Base V6s..........(look at the numbers...don't tell me what you think they sell...give me the facts when rebutting.........)

If you're saying that you'd never ever consider buying a 5th Gen Camaro with a big honking V8 (class leading performance) because we also offered a supercharged 4 cylinder, then I guess I'm wondering 'What the heck?!?!?!?!?'

Yup, we offered 396s and 302s and 350s in the '67 Camaro....but a whole buncha them were built with the 230 and 250 inline 6.....

IMO, a V6, like Mustang has, offer a better 'performance image' than a 4-cylinder, supercharged or not...

I would be one of those buying the V8 Camaro, and the only way a 4-banger would stop me from buying the V8 model would be if somehow the base Camaro became some crazy fart-cannon wannabe bling bling car and that image reflected on me as a V8 Camaro driver...

I want nothing to do with that crowd, and I don't want to be associated, in any way, with that crowd.

If a 4-banger were offered, would that image develop? I don't know the answer to that... it is at least possible...

Originally posted by Darth Xed
IMO, a V6, like Mustang has, offer a better 'performance image' than a 4-cylinder, supercharged or not...

I would be one of those buying the V8 Camaro, and the only way a 4-banger would stop me from buying the V8 model would be if somehow the base Camaro became some crazy fart-cannon wannabe bling bling car and that image reflected on me as a V8 Camaro driver...

I want nothing to do with that crowd, and I don't want to be associated, in any way, with that crowd.

If a 4-banger were offered, would that image develop? I don't know the answer to that... it is at least possible... :bow: :bow:

Very well put Darth :thumb:

Originally posted by Darth Xed
.................................................. ...................
If a 4-banger were offered, would that image develop? I don't know the answer to that... it is at least possible...

That is a good point, but I don't think we would see many "fart can" Camaros, most of the fart can cars seem to be FWD econoboxes that are 5 or more years old, you don't really see any V6 4th gens with fart cans so I don't think you would see any 5th Gen. Do you think there will be a lot of fart can Solctices? Do you think there would be fart can I5's?

Originally posted by Darth Xed
some crazy fart-cannon wannabe bling bling car...

That made me laugh:D. I just pictured some ricer revving his car and the sounds "fa*faar*faaaarrrrrrrrttttt*" emanating from his/her 6" exhaust.

Honestly though, every make has (at one time or another) had a bad stigma attached to it (redneck, yuppie, ricer, girly, etc...). Are we all redneck for driving American v8's? No, not all of us;).

A 4 banger may or not be good for the Camaro when compared to a well-built v6. Personally, the SVO mustangs happen to be some of my favorite Mustangs. The car outhandled Euro cars costing 3 times as much, and had the straight line acceleration close to that of the much larger 5.0 v8. It was truly an attractive package, and a 4 banger can be an attractive performance package if done and executed right. Btw, i'm not suggesting that the 4 banger cost more than the z28 as was with the case of the SVO's and 5.0's. I'm saying that a 2XXhp 4 banger may not be a bad start or a bad base engine (i still wouldn't buy, even if it was discounted).

I doubt that the fart-cannon wannabe bling-blingers would care for a camaro be it I4 or v8. I'd think that they’d mostly stick to imports and sport compacts which suites their image, bling bling lifestyle, and personal tastes much better. That isn't going to change just because of the addition of a S/c 4 banger. To them, it’s still a camaro (translation: Another car they couldn't care less about). Would most of us dump our american v8's for Toyota/Nissan/Honda just because they too have come out with a v8 sports coupe? I think most of us wouldn't.

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0


I doubt that the fart-cannon wannabe bling-blingers would care for a camaro be it I4 or v8. I'd think that they’d mostly stick to imports and sport compacts which suites their image, bling bling lifestyle, and personal tastes much better. That isn't going to change just because of the addition of a S/c 4 banger. To them, it’s still a camaro (translation: Another car they couldn't care less about). Would most of us dump our american v8's for Toyota/Nissan/Honda just because they too have come out with a v8 sports coupe? I think most of us wouldn't.


Fair enough... and great point! A S/C'd I4 very well may not appeal to this segment.... but... if it doesn't... why are we going down this road at all?

The supposed whole idea of offering this type of engine would be to grab a new group of enthusiasts to bolster the Camaro 'base car' sales.

If the car doesn't appeal to the "Tuner crowd", who is it going to appeal?

It just seems like an experiment doomed to fail. It could grab the "tuner crowd" and alienate by association, a lot of the anti-ricer group.

If it doesn't appeal to the "tuner" crowd, then it has failed.

I don't know that a 4-banger base Camaro is going ot draw buyers from other segments such as 4-door family cars, minivans, trucks, or SUV's... at least anything worth mentioning.

The Camaro (as the Mustang is) should be the Anti-Rice It should stand up and be proud of what it is and build on it.

I still feel very strongly that the traditional Camaro formula works. It just needs to be on a high-quality, modern platform with marketing support and dealer excitment.

A V6 does more than an I4 would for Camaro, IMO. If you want to do the S/C thing, fine... but do it on the V6.


FWIW, I usually agree with Red Planet on just about everything he says... on this issue, though, I respectfully disagree, and hope I can put forward a valid counterpoint. :)

Darth, i agree with you. I don’t think GM should cater a Camaro to the “tuner crowd”. I could see why you’d think this would lead to the camaro becoming another civic (and becoming popular with the ricers).

I’d personally wish for the base engine to be a small sub-250-270hp 4.XL v8, but economics wouldn't allow that. A 6 is the other nice solution.

I think that a well built v6/I6 would be better than a 4 (blown or not). Even the archaic 3.8 isn't bad with a S/c thrown into the mix. Now a S/c'ed 3.8 wouldn't be a bad idea.

They wouldn't use the current 3.8 because by the time the Camaro comes out, that engine will be on it's way to being replaced...........I believe.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
They wouldn't use the current 3.8 because by the time the Camaro comes out, that engine will be on it's way to being replaced...........I believe.

I've heard...Is the 3.9L pushrod its replacement?

Originally posted by Darth Xed
IMO, a V6, like Mustang has, offer a better 'performance image' than a 4-cylinder, supercharged or not...

I would be one of those buying the V8 Camaro, and the only way a 4-banger would stop me from buying the V8 model would be if somehow the base Camaro became some crazy fart-cannon wannabe bling bling car and that image reflected on me as a V8 Camaro driver...

I want nothing to do with that crowd, and I don't want to be associated, in any way, with that crowd.

If a 4-banger were offered, would that image develop? I don't know the answer to that... it is at least possible...

Well put Darth! The idea of a Camaro with a fart-can and multi-level wing makes me shudder. I've already seen a few 6 cylinder 4th gens around here that have gotten the "rice" treatment. Sad. The pricing of the car would slot it directly into the category with the WRX, SRT-4, and other cars like these. Those are exactly the kind of cars that you see all decked out with tacky bodykits and 7" fart cannons. Hoping that the car doesn't appeal to this crowd is wishful thinking imo. I do agree that a rwd car sporting a blown 4 could have appeal, just don't call it Camaro. Let the Solstice or something else slot into that segment.

I don't think that the Camaro will ever be a high volume car again. With platform and component sharing it makes it more feasible to produce a car that doesn't sell 150k units a year. In other words, maybe we don't need to appeal to everyone. Don't get me wrong, the Camaro does need to find new buyers when it returns, but it doesn't need to bridge all segments and classes to attract everyone. Let's not over-extend ourselves. Performance car first, everybody's car second. I truly hope that GM can find a way to make a business case for a lower volume Camaro. And that is exactly what I want, a Camaro. I don't want a WRX, SRT-4, Mustang, Civic, Vega, 350Z, RX-8, etc. I NEED a Camaro. If we don't get a true Camaro, what's the point....


-Mike

Originally posted by Red Planet

I don't know what you had in mind when you asked the question Z284ever, but let me throw a few things out there........

I don't THINK that Z284ev. is asking you if YOU'D necessarily buy a 4 cylinder supercharged Camaro


Well, maybe I should have rephrased the question.....but I really wanted to aim at center of mass with a direct question, to see what the reaction would be on this board. I'm sure this is one of the most anti-4banger sites on the internet....and yet over 14% of YOU would buy.


I don't really know if an Ecotec in a Camaro is ultimately a right or wrong move.....but I know it would be good if more people liked Camaros. The same people that currently would never consider a Camaro. And yes the very same people who "look down" on Camaros.

Sooo, how do you do that?


And regarding this cliche' that four cylinders = Rice......please spare me. You wouldn't believe how many riced out 4th gens I see. What does that mean? I also see so many beautiful RWD I4's. What does that mean?

Anyhoo.......I was really hoping that we could have had a more objective debate on this.



BTW...Is there a full moon out tonight? Red Planet and I are in complete agreement.;)

4 banger would only be a ploy to cater to the ricer market. I say "hell no".

Originally posted by Z284ever


And regarding this cliche' that four cylinders = Rice......please spare me. You wouldn't believe how many riced out 4th gens I see. What does that mean? I also see so many beautiful RWD I4's. What does that mean?

I never said 4 cylinders = rice. I said it could lead to a ricer image, something I have ZERO deisre to be associated with in any form. And I even said I honestly don't know if that would happen.... but it COULD happen.

A 4-banger adds fuel to that potential fire. "Tuners" favor 4-bangers to V6's.

As for "Riced-Out" 4th gens... I have seen a couple, but they are few and far between. No where near like the amount of "riced-out" 4-cylinder cars... Eclipse, Talon, Civic, Cavalier, Focus, Corolla, et al.




Anyhoo.......I was really hoping that we could have had a more objective debate on this.



How can you hope to have an objective debate on a purely subjective topic??? "Would you but a Supercharged EcotechCamaro for $20k" is the title! :p ;)

Originally posted by Z284ever



And regarding this cliche' that four cylinders = Rice......please spare me. You wouldn't believe how many riced out 4th gens I see. What does that mean? I also see so many beautiful RWD I4's. What does that mean?

After reading past discussions on here about what is considered rice, I feel some people have quite an overreaching definition of the term.

I4 Turbo RWD does not equal rice. Not all foriegn/turbo I4 enthusiasts are ricers.

Some of you said it would not appeal to ricer market, so don't do it. Some said it would, so don't do it.

Make a business case for less sales? In my view you're painting yourself into a corner there. The same 'ol crowd can't carry a new car....

Z284ever....Good job bringing in some controversy...I love it. If you had said Supercharged V6 you would've gotten a heck of a lot more support I'm sure. But I think you may also be right in saying that it might not be able to be done for <20,000.

I myself voted that I wouldn't buy it, but obviously I wouldn't be against it. The "real deal" cars would always be the SS and Z28. Anyone who bought a Tubo Eco IMO would always be eying those cars to move up into. Voila, RWD V8 enthusiasts...

Good discussion...I'd love to hear other serious ideas to bring new faces to Camaro.

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!


I myself voted that I wouldn't buy it, but obviously I wouldn't be against it. The "real deal" cars would always be the SS and Z28. Anyone who bought a Tubo Eco IMO would always be eying those cars to move up into. Voila, RWD V8 enthusiasts...

Good discussion...I'd love to hear other serious ideas to bring new faces to Camaro.

This, is certainly the potential upside of that scenario!

Yes, it COULD happen that way as well.

Quesitons though:

Would a S/C'd I4 be any cheaper than a N/A V6?
Would a S/C'd I4 draw a bigger crowd than a N/A V6... or just a different crowd?

Mustang seems to do OK with a V6....

Potential could go both ways:

It could be a success...but then the real fans would have to deal with the ricer punks at car shows or whatever.With the Fast and the Furious movies the Camaro would be the blame for street racing/deaths.It could also be the butt of all jokes with the mustang/camro/muscle car crowd and hurt sales.Sales would probably drop off due to the bad publicity associated with the type of people who would buy it.
It could be a failure and a waste of time,money and resources for GM and be cancelled in 2 years like the Iron duke cars were.

It's the association with the ricer crowd was what I was trying to get at with my posts and that it is just plain wrong to begin with.I'm sorry that I don't agree with this idea for the Camaro but it would have been a good idea with another car.

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
I4 Turbo RWD does not equal rice (911 Turbo rice? NOT).

The 911 Turbo is not an inline and it is not a 4 cylinder.

Originally posted by Z284ever
...Is there a full moon out tonight? Red Planet and I are in complete agreement.;)
HEhe!:D Me too.

I've been reading this thread, and finally can't take it anymore - I've gotta post.:dead:

The first thing to understand is that this site caters to a performance crowd - period. Everyone here probably owns V8 versions of their beloved car, be it Firebird, Camaro, Mustang, or whatever. We made this purchasing decision on our own merits - 'nuf said about our free-choice favorites. Now as for "the other models"... let's be like big boys and girls and put on our thinking caps for a minute.;)

Originally posted by 91Zman...If you want them to try something new with the Camaro shouldn't it be something like a new fuel injection system,factory headers(although 1stgens had them at one time),air filtration or a new ignition system?They could possibly do things to the new Camaro that people are doing to make it faster and if they(customers) want to add a S/C more power to them,pun intended. Those things,a new exterior/interior and maybe keeping the price low/lower could/would also attract new enthusiasts without scarificing or alienating it's current enthusiasts.;)
The last F4's were the fastest ponycars on the road. They still died.
Speed alone DOES NOT SELL. What part of that don't some people understand?:confused:

Originally posted by Z284ever...That old weezy 100hp Iron Duke didn't stop people from buying Z/28's and Trans Ams when it was available. The 2.3 I4 didn't stop people from buying 5.0 Mustangs either. In fact Ford stepped up a notch and offered a 2.3 Turbo in the SVO and for a couple of years in the GT.

BINGO! Z284ever is spot-on here. Red Planet too. Not only was the iron duke available, but it sold VERY WELL. The first 3rd gen I ever sat in was a 4-banger. The I4 mustangs from '79 to '93 outsold the V8 by a healthy margin - like 2 to 1. If you really want the exact sales stats, I'll post 'em when I get home - don't have them at work. That's where the volume comes from, like it or not. And if you don't want volume, you won't get your car back anyways, so either accept it, support it, and get ready for your V8 option, or fuggedaboudit - the whole Camaro model. Especially so at GM where the Corvette already is locked in as your limited production V8 RWD sportscar. There's no room for 2 like that.

And KUDOS to Z284ever on another level... the Turbo Mustangs are among the most sought after fox-bodies for collectors today. The early '82-'83 Turbo GTs are bringing premiums over V8 cars, and the SVO's are going ballistic in collector value, hitting the mid $20's for pristine cars. The collectors after these cars want something different, something other than a V8 and stripes like every other GT or LX on the road. They offer a twisted, european, slightly exotic flavor to a purely American model car. Would it really hurt Camaro's image to have some limited edition cars that could bring desireability/collectability at some level other than V8 rumble... methinks not.:no:

Lastly, the first Mustangs in '64 and the first Camaros in '67 offered basic I6's that were misers, bulletproof, and trustworthy as hell. You could fix anything on them with a 1/2" wrench and a coathanger. They were also the lowest CI, lowest performing engines available - used in cars that were intended and marketed as sporty compacts - not land-missiles. Both models offered V8s and big HP, but their bread and butter were the basic I6 engines. (Ford didn't even offer the I4 at all until 70, and the first came in the German built and imported Capri. The 2.0L came out in the Pinto in '71, and the first I4 in a Mustang came in '74 as the 2.3L-2V, and stayed 'til '94. The car was actually designed to use that engine for the economy. GM's history, I don't know so well.) So for those of you who don't think any I4 belongs in a "musclecar" model (Camaro, Mustang, or any other), you need to rethink your position. These cars were born with the smallest HP engines the companies had available, they were cheap, economical, and had appeal to everyone - non-racing, non-gearheads included. They sold like the dickens because of it, and that is exactly why these cars are as popular as they are even today.

I'm all for offering a unique and maybe even "special" or limited edition turbo-I4 Camaro! If it does attract the Honda and Nissan guys... so what! Heck I think that'd be great, they have money too ya know?
And for all you big LS1 guys with lids, NOS, 6-speeds, and $1000 stereos that think V8's are the only engines and your crap don't stink... Once you get your arse handed to you by a guy with a turbo4, dial-a-boost, and a fuel system, please send me a letter explaining how the crow went down... was it grilled or fried?:p
Doesn't ANYONE recall the "mini-van dad" around here...;)
I seem to recall his site has a specific Mpeg of him doing an LS1 car by about a second. And Lord knows he had the aerodynamic advantage in his minivan at over 100mph too.

'nuf said.
I'm with you all the way Charlie. I hope your thread has at least got some guys thinking anyways!:thumb:

Originally posted by Darth Xed




How can you hope to have an objective debate on a purely subjective topic??? "Would you but a Supercharged EcotechCamaro for $20k" is the title! :p ;)

OK Darth...you got me.

But I just want to explore ways to make the Camaro more appealing to more people. Just adding more and more power....alone....won't quite do it either. We need incredibly good looks, great quality and refinement......and something to "hook" new people. Even people who don't buy Camaros...still need to like them. It's that whole image thing.


I'm going to let you guys in on a little secret.

SHHHHHH. Don't tell anyone, but.........Some people actually look down on us because we own Camaros. OH YES! IT'S TRUE! THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE!
Just the same way that some here may consider anything that is, Foreign/Domestic/Different/ FWD/IRS/non-V8/Turbocharged as "RICE".

Yes boys and girls....Camaro could use an image make over. And alot more people need to "want" a Camaro.....some of them have to actually buy one too.

Originally posted by ProudPony





The last F4's were the fastest ponycars on the road. They still died.
Speed alone DOES NOT SELL. What part of that don't some people understand?:confused:


That wasn't what I was percieving in that post at all.Just an idea to make the Camaro attractive to new buyers not..oh boy..speed speed faster faster grunt grunt crap.Maybe it was a ludicrous idea but all I was saying was that GM could sort of like pre-modify if ya will,the cars with aftermarket stuff.Nothing major but little things like brakes,ignition or whatever or at least have the option to do so.It's for when peope order their car to have these things in their cars.The option list would have to be limited though because it could get/be rediculous.Some cars do come with aftermarket stuff,like the '03 Cobra.

Originally posted by 91Zman
That wasn't what I was percieving in that post at all.Just an idea to make the Camaro attractive to new buyers not..oh boy..speed speed faster faster grunt grunt crap.All I was saying was that GM could sort of like pre-modify if ya will,the cars with aftermarket stuff(little things like brakes,ignition or whatever) or at least have the option to do so for when peope order their car to have these things in their cars.The option list would have to be limited though because it could get/be rediculous.Some cars come with aftermarket stuff,like the '03 Cobra.

I agree 100% that those are things guys like us want to see on the cars - no doubt about it. But a large percentage of folks who would by Camaros and Mustangs are females and/or nerds that will never mod their car in any way, and never have it over 80mph either. They just don't care about V8s, or mods either, but there are lots of them out there and they DO have money, and they DO buy cars.

We can get a whole lot more sales if we broaden the appeal of the car at the BOTTOM end of the performance spectrum, than enhancing the top - that's all I'm saying.

Now, GM could help out the top-performance sales too if they would design the next car to be easier to work on/mod (as in not going through the glove box to change the #7 and #8 plugs, or removing the windshield to take off a valve cover). So yes, they could definitely make the enthusiasts a happier guy too. But the returns on that kind of investment dollar will pale next to the returns of marketing a unique lower-level unit to an entirely different crowd - like a turbo 4 could do.

Your point is well taken, but see my side too.:thumb:

Originally posted by 91Zman
..and maybe you're not enough of a Camaro fan to realize that a s/c 4banger would be bad,uncamaro like and further hurt the camaro's image.If you want them to try something new with the Camaro shouldn't it be something like a new fuel injection system,factory headers(although 1stgens had them at one time),air filtration or a new ignition system?They could possibly do things to the new Camaro that people are doing to make it faster and if they(customers) want to add a S/C more power to them,pun intended.Those things,a new exterior/interior and maybe keeping the price low/lower could/would also attract new enthusiasts without scarificing or alienating it's current enthusiasts.

Let me tell you something I know "z28forever" personally and if there is anyone that LOVES camaros it's him.

Originally posted by Z284ever



I'm going to let you guys in on a little secret.

SHHHHHH. Don't tell anyone, but.........Some people actually look down on us because we own Camaros. OH YES! IT'S TRUE! THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE!
Just the same way that some here may consider anything that is, Foreign/Domestic/Different/ FWD/IRS/non-V8/Turbocharged as "RICE".

...and adding a s/c 4banger would sway/improve other's perceptions of us?:no:

thanks for the scoop :p

Originally posted by ProudPony
I agree 100% that those are things guys like us want to see on the cars - no doubt about it. But a large percentage of folks who would by Camaros and Mustangs are females and/or nerds that will never mod their car in any way, and never have it over 80mph either. They just don't care about V8s, or mods either, but there are lots of them out there and they DO have money, and they DO buy cars.

We can get a whole lot more sales if we broaden the appeal of the car at the BOTTOM end of the performance spectrum, than enhancing the top - that's all I'm saying.

Now, GM could help out the top-performance sales too if they would design the next car to be easier to work on/mod (as in not going through the glove box to change the #7 and #8 plugs, or removing the windshield to take off a valve cover). So yes, they could definitely make the enthusiasts a happier guy too. But the returns on that kind of investment dollar will pale next to the returns of marketing a unique lower-level unit to an entirely different crowd - like a turbo 4 could do.

Your point is well taken, but see my side too.:thumb: I do see your point but I just think that it could have been done with a V6.

Originally posted by steves
Let me tell you something I know "z28forever" personally and if there is anyone that LOVES camaros it's him. I did apologize. :confused:

Originally posted by HAZ-Matt
The 911 Turbo is not an inline and it is not a 4 cylinder.

Doh! :eek: WTFWIT (what the f--- was I thinking?!?!)

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Darth, i agree with you. I don’t think GM should cater a Camaro to the “tuner crowd”. I could see why you’d think this would lead to the camaro becoming another civic (and becoming popular with the ricers).


The purpose of a 4 banger would be to get in more people to buy cars. If you haven't noticed the "rice" crowd has moved in on this hobby and is slowly taking over. If you are worried about the fart cans, huge wings and Camaros being "riced out" that happens today. I wish you guys would get over with this debate of "V8 is better than 4 banger". If any of you "enthusiasts" have any clue you would see that these ricers are blowing away your beloved Camaros everyday. I think that most ricers are ignorant, but they are the ones that buy alot of cars and really help this hobby to keep going. The whole idea is to have a model of Camaro to cater to everyone and I don't think that is a bad idea. The mustang has a model for every type of person, and a mustang that fits in everyones budget. Thats why the Camaro failed, among other things.

Originally posted by 91Zman
I did apologize. :confused:

Sorry I just tuned in.

Originally posted by steves
The purpose of a 4 banger would be to get in more people to buy cars. If you haven't noticed the "rice" crowd has moved in on this hobby and is slowly taking over. If you are worried about the fart cans, huge wings and Camaros being "riced out" that happens today. I wish you guys would get over with this debate of "V8 is better than 4 banger". If any of you "enthusiasts" have any clue you would see that these ricers are blowing away your beloved Camaros everyday. I think that most ricers are ignorant, but they are the ones that buy alot of cars and really help this hobby to keep going. The whole idea is to have a model of Camaro to cater to everyone and I don't think that is a bad idea. The mustang has a model for every type of person, and a mustang that fits in everyones budget. Thats why the Camaro failed, among other things.

I have a problem with several of your points:

1) Noone is saying every Camaro should be a V8, so don't put it forth like that. What we (or at least I) am saying is that a V6 is more appropriate for this application.

2) I do not believe that the "tuner crowd" are "the ones that buy alot of cars and really help this hobby to keep going" ... They buy mostly USED cars... sure, some buy new, but no where near the majority.

3) You use Mustang as a successful example... well, where is Mustang's 4-banger?!?!?!?

Originally posted by 91Zman
I do see your point but I just think that it could have been done with a V6.
Remember, I'm not saying the turbo4 should REPLACE the V6 - I think that would be all wrong too. I have said many times that I am for the V6 as the STANDARD for the base unit.

My position - in this thread anyways - is to endorse Charlie's idea about OFFERING SOMETHING DIFFERENT. The turbo4 could be marketed in the Camaro lineup just as the SVO or turbo GTs were in the Fox lineup, right with the big V8s and the other base units. It could bring additional - and sorely needed - attention to the cars from folks who would otherwise pass it up. It is up to GM to decide if it is cost-effective and capable of being done though, not us.

FWIW, given the attention and money that tuners are putting into 4-bangers these days, I'd kinda like to see Ford put out another "SVO" or turbo GT - I think they'd sell like $.25-hotdogs. They are doing it with the Focus, but I'd like to see them offer something to the "rice" crowd in a Mustang too - heck they are ricing them anyways, why not cater to them? Anybody notice the Mustang that got squished in 2F2F? He!!, I was just happy to see a Mustang get screentime in that flick (regardless of how bad it looked.:cry: ). THAT alone will sell some Mustangs, I feel sure, and the more they sell the better IMO.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I have a problem with several of your points:

1) Noone is saying every Camaro should be a V8, so don't put it forth like that. What we (or at least I) am saying is that a V6 is more appropriate for this application.

2) I do not believe that the "tuner crowd" are "the ones that buy alot of cars and really help this hobby to keep going" ... They buy mostly USED cars... sure, some buy new, but no where near the majority.

3) You use Mustang as a successful example... well, where is Mustang's 4-banger?!?!?!?


1) I am not saying the Camaro should have a 4-cyl as a base motor either. GM is really pushing the eco-tec and if it does end up in the Camaro it's not a bad thing. The eco-tec can be tuned to perform like any V8, and I think that scares everyone.

2)Where I live most of the kids I see have new Civics. They are cheap you can pick one up for $12k, and if they buy used they have RX-7's, 300ZX's, ect. But usually when I see a "tuned" car it is a "ricer". I don't see as many F-bodies moded or Mustang's for that matter. That's why I said that.

3) The Mustang is successful because it has a model that caters to everyone's needs. I am sure if Ford had a 4-banger that could make over 200hp it would be in the mustang. Remember the 79-93 Mustang with the 2.3. I am sure they sold more 4-cyl's than V8/V6 combined.

Originally posted by ProudPony
Remember, I'm not saying the turbo4 should REPLACE the V6 - I think that would be all wrong too. I have said many times that I am for the V6 as the STANDARD for the base unit.

My position - in this thread anyways - is to endorse Charlie's idea about OFFERING SOMETHING DIFFERENT. The turbo4 could be marketed in the Camaro lineup just as the SVO or turbo GTs were in the Fox lineup, right with the big V8s and the other base units. It could bring additional - and sorely needed - attention to the cars from folks who would otherwise pass it up. It is up to GM to decide if it is cost-effective and capable of being done though, not us.

FWIW, given the attention and money that tuners are putting into 4-bangers these days, I'd kinda like to see Ford put out another "SVO" or turbo GT - I think they'd sell like $.25-hotdogs. They are doing it with the Focus, but I'd like to see them offer something to the "rice" crowd in a Mustang too - heck they are ricing them anyways, why not cater to them? Anybody notice the Mustang that got squished in 2F2F? He!!, I was just happy to see a Mustang get screentime in that flick (regardless of how bad it looked.:cry: ). THAT alone will sell some Mustangs, I feel sure, and the more they sell the better IMO.



Thank you.

Originally posted by steves
1) I am not saying the Camaro should have a 4-cyl as a base motor either. GM is really pushing the eco-tec and if it does end up in the Camaro it's not a bad thing. The eco-tec can be tuned to perform like any V8, and I think that scares everyone.


I am not against a mid-level motor, but if you have a Base V6, then an intermediate S/C'd I4, then a top of the line V8, well, that really adds to the confusion, IMO. Plus, I doubt we are going to actually see an I4, a V6 AND a V8 all in any Gen 5 Camaro...

Is a 230 hp S/C'd 4-banger even going ot be exciting to many people anyway? I mean, family cars are putting out this much hp right now.

And what if the tuner-crowd rejects this whole thing because they don't like the "Camaro-image" (The reverse angle of all this)? Then this is all money down the drain.


2)Where I live most of the kids I see have new Civics. They are cheap you can pick one up for $12k, and if they buy used they have RX-7's, 300ZX's, ect. But usually when I see a "tuned" car it is a "ricer". I don't see as many F-bodies moded or Mustang's for that matter. That's why I said that.


I doubt any new base Camaro is going to come in at $12k... so we are going to offer something here that would already be priced out of it's market? Heck, I think a $16k base Camaro would be a great starting point... and I doubt even that can happen!



3) The Mustang is successful because it has a model that caters to everyone's needs. I am sure if Ford had a 4-banger that could make over 200hp it would be in the mustang. Remember the 79-93 Mustang with the 2.3. I am sure they sold more 4-cyl's than V8/V6 combined.

But.... they are doing it without the I4 right now .

Well, I don't want the Camaro/Firebirds to become the "Jack of all trades/master of none" The next F5 should be designed to be a sleek 2+2 sport coupe/convert with a V8 in priority..

I don't want any stubby sport compact influence.... I can't even imagine how you can combine the two together...

They should attract people by being a sleek RWD 2+2 sports coupe/convert with relatively big smooth powerful engines..

Something different? How about the options to get: displacement on demand, active suspension, a real hi perf paddle shift trans..

Let another car thats better suited carry the I4 forced induction route.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I am not against a mid-level motor, but if you have a Base V6, then an intermediate S/C'd I4, then a top of the line V8, well, that really adds to the confusion, IMO. Plus, I doubt we are going to actually see an I4, a V6 AND a V8 all in any Gen 5 Camaro...

Is a 230 hp S/C'd 4-banger even going ot be exciting to many people anyway? I mean, family cars are putting out this much hp right now.

And what if the tuner-crowd rejects this whole thing because they don't like the "Camaro-image" (The reverse angle of all this)? Then this is all money down the drain.



I doubt any new base Camaro is going to come in at $12k... so we are going to offer something here that would already be priced out of it's market? Heck, I think a $16k base Camaro would be a great starting point... and I doubt even that can happen!




But.... they are doing it without the I4 right now .



I agree with you. But the whole idea is to try and get different people to look at Camaro. If more are sold GM will spend money to advertise, ect. If a model is not selling or reaching it's sales goal GM will get rid of it. If a 4cyl will appeal more to different costumers then they should do it, only if they can get it right.
When I say that I mean: cheap, look good (this is very important), and good quality. If GM does that I think they will sell like hotcakes.

Originally posted by steves
I agree with you. But the whole idea is to try and get different people to look at Camaro. If more are sold GM will spend money to advertise, ect. If a model is not selling or reaching it's sales goal GM will get rid of it. If a 4cyl will appeal more to different costumers then they should do it, only if they can get it right.
When I say that I mean: cheap, look good (this is very important), and good quality. If GM does that I think they will sell like hotcakes.

To do it right, wouldn't you want ot he I4 to be in a smaller car that doesn't need the extra room to accomidate the V8? It just sounds like putting an I4 in would be a kludge comprimise.. Rath have the money spent to concentrate on making inexpensive, looks, and quality..

Originally posted by steves

When I say that I mean: cheap, look good (this is very important), and good quality. If GM does that I think they will sell like hotcakes.

This is a winning statement! (Though I'd replace "cheap" with "reasonably priced" ;) )

I am a firm believer that the "Camaro formula" is still very valid and can be successful...

If you look at the F4, it had:

1) Very limited marketing after it's initial launch.
2) Very little money put in it for updates. A car like this needs to have small changes more often. After all, this is an enthusiasts car.
3) The F-platform was ancient and outdated compared to even economy car offerings from other manufacturers...
4) Quality, while better than the past, just wasn't on par with everything else out there.
5) Dealer support was dismal. The barely stocked any F-cars, and when they did they were all very similar.


A good looking, modern, quality built Camaro would be very successful, IMO using the traditional Camaro formula.

Originally posted by Ken S
To do it right, wouldn't you want ot he I4 to be in a smaller car that doesn't need the extra room to accomidate the V8? It just sounds like putting an I4 in would be a kludge comprimise.. Rath have the money spent to concentrate on making inexpensive, looks, and quality..

GM already is spending money developing this motor anyways. I don't think it will cost much to drop in a camaro.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
This is a winning statement! (Though I'd replace "cheap" with "reasonably priced" ;) )

I am a firm believer that the "Camaro formula" is still very valid and can be successful...

If you look at the F4, it had:

1) Very limited marketing after it's initial launch.
2) Very little money put in it for updates. A car like this needs to have small changes more often. After all, this is an enthusiasts car.
3) The F-platform was ancient and outdated compared to even economy car offerings from other manufacturers...
4) Quality, while better than the past, just wasn't on par with everything else out there.
5) Dealer support was dismal. The barely stocked any F-cars, and when they did they were all very similar.


A good looking, modern, quality built Camaro would be very successful, IMO using the traditional Camaro formula.

I totally agree.

Originally posted by steves
I totally agree. Me too!

I don't know about you guys, but i still like the Turbo I-5 motor idea in a totally new model (a name not from the past). It's forced induction, which is always cool. It is an inline motor, overhead cams, and it is a five cylinder so it is something new and fresh to a Camaro(not counting the old strait 6). I bet it could be modded easily too. The only problem is, I don't know how much this would cost or if it would overlap a smaller V8 model in horsepower and price.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I don't know about you guys, but i still like the Turbo I-5 motor idea in a totally new model (a name not from the past). It's forced induction, which is always cool. It is an inline motor, overhead cams, and it is a five cylinder so it is something new and fresh to a Camaro(not counting the old strait 6). I bet it could be modded easily too. The only problem is, I don't know how much this would cost or if it would overlap a smaller V8 model in horsepower and price.

From what I understand the turbo i-5 is too tall. It would be different, and would probably make hp numbers like a small V8.

A few questions regarding this S/c'ed ecotec....

1) Isnt it a transversely mounted engine/tranny combo suited for FWD platforms? Would getting it into a RWD platform (Camaro) be cheap or worth the effort when 6's are readily available? I know the 3.8 was available for FWD and RWD platforms, but is it the same case with the ecotec since i've only seen them in FWD applications. EDIT: The Solistic (sp?) is RWD right and will be powered by an ecotec?

2) Weight and size issue of the car (this case camaro). The camaro is no compact, and the 4th gen was a fairly large/heavy car. Even the base model weighed more than a A4 Mustang GT coupe. Assuming the dimension and weight don't change much, would a 4 banger be better suited than a v6 for such car? The SVO mustang was a small light car (2800-2900lbs).

3) Would this Sohc/Dohc Supercharged I4 be necessarily any more fuel efficient or lighter than an all-aluminum N/A pushrod v6 or even a Sohc v6? Would it be cheaper?

id say go with displacement on demand...if you want something "fresh" in the camaro
make it like a 4-6 type deal, im sure people wouldnt mind that
or you could even do 4-8
i havent seen the lineup of engines for gm in a while so im not sure which ones they offer

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
A few questions regarding this S/c'ed ecotec....

1) EDIT: The Solistic (sp?) is RWD right and will be powered by an ecotec?

There you go.



2) Weight and size issue of the car (this case camaro). The camaro is no compact, and the 4th gen was a fairly large/heavy car. Even the base model weighed more than a A4 Mustang GT coupe. Assuming the dimension and weight don't change much, would a 4 banger be better suited than a v6 for such car? The SVO mustang was a small light car (2800-2900lbs).

Weight is the biggest issue that I see in a 4 cyl. Camaro. Unless the F5 can shed a couple of hundred pounds or so....we may get "Marauder Syndrome" . Then again....just guessing.....the reduced mass of an I4 and it's associated driveline components, (lighter clutch, flywheel, tranny, axles, etc.) may be worth a couple of hundred pounds right there.



3) Would this Sohc/Dohc Supercharged I4 be necessarily any more fuel efficient or lighter than an all-aluminum N/A pushrod v6 or even a Sohc v6? Would it be cheaper?

I'd say it would probably be lighter than an iron V6. I'd doubt an aluminum S/C DOHC I4 would be cheaper than an iron or even aluminum pushrod V6 though. But it sure would have lots more "tunability".

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I don't know about you guys, but i still like the Turbo I-5 motor idea in a totally new model (a name not from the past). It's forced induction, which is always cool. It is an inline motor, overhead cams, and it is a five cylinder so it is something new and fresh to a Camaro(not counting the old strait 6). I bet it could be modded easily too. The only problem is, I don't know how much this would cost or if it would overlap a smaller V8 model in horsepower and price.

I think the Bel Air's T I5 is an interesting engine....but it may have it's drawbacks. Any car that uses it will require a high firewall (very un-Camaro like)...the engine is pretty tall.

Also, several months ago I had a conversation with someone who drove the Bel Air concept. He was completely unimpressed with the engine's lack of smoothness. Let's hope "Powertrain" gets that sorted out before production starts.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Also, several months ago I had a conversation with someone who drove the Bel Air concept. He was completely unimpressed with the engine's lack of smoothness. Let's hope "Powertrain" gets that sorted out before production starts.

Well, it was still a concept engine built just for a show car, I'm sure the production version will have all the bugs worked out.

Originally posted by Z284ever
I think the Bel Air's T I5 is an interesting engine....but it may have it's drawbacks. Any car that uses it will require a high firewall (very un-Camaro like)...the engine is pretty tall.
That's the only problem I see with an inline engine. Do you guys realize how long the strokes are on GM's 4 cyinders? The Ecotec is 3.724" and the Vortec I6/5/4 has a stroke of 4.016":eek: That's straight up and down, not at an angle like in a V engine. I don't see how they could fit that in a performance car:rolleyes:

Originally posted by AdioSS
That's the only problem I see with an inline engine. Do you guys realize how long the strokes are on GM's 4 cyinders? The Ecotec is 3.724" and the Vortec I6/5/4 has a stroke of 4.016":eek: That's straight up and down, not at an angle like in a V engine. I don't see how they could fit that in a performance car:rolleyes:

You put the engine in at an angle like BMW does with the I6 M3

Originally posted by AdioSS
That's the only problem I see with an inline engine. Do you guys realize how long the strokes are on GM's 4 cyinders? The Ecotec is 3.724" and the Vortec I6/5/4 has a stroke of 4.016":eek: That's straight up and down, not at an angle like in a V engine. I don't see how they could fit that in a performance car:rolleyes:

The Ecotec is less than an inch taller than the LS1.

no, it should only be an option, not a standard and surely not the real deal. there should ALWAYS be a V8 option in a camaro. i still wouldnt buy it though.

Originally posted by 96LT14u2Nv
no, it should only be an option, not a standard and surely not the real deal. there should ALWAYS be a V8 option in a camaro. i still wouldnt buy it though.


Well...of course not. No one in their right mind would suggest that Camaro not have a V8.

Guys if you think adding a 4 cylinder will change the Camaros image, man, no. The only way to change an import guy's mind about the fbody is to take them for a ride, beat the hell out of a turbo civic with exhaust and intake and be like "Man, this car is bone stock, it's how they come from the factory." That is the only way, otherwise if it has a 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16: we're still all mullet heads that never got past 4th grade and can not hold a job. Dont get pissed at me for saying that, its just the truth about what they think (lol unless you called the 4 cylinder the Camaro Type R, esp using yellow lettering).

Im not behind the 4 cylinder anyways, there's a time and a place for everything and this is neither of them. Every once in a while you just have that gut feeling that something isnt right, and this is one of those times. And if for some god unknow reason they decide to do this, at least turbo charge the freakin thing. Nothing against superchargers, but if they're that gung-ho about breaking into the import market with the fbody (jesus that sounds wrong) it needs a turbo.

Originally posted by Chuck!
Guys if you think adding a 4 cylinder will change the Camaros image, man, no. The only way to change an import guy's mind about the fbody is to take them for a ride, beat the hell out of a turbo civic with exhaust and intake and be like "Man, this car is bone stock, it's how they come from the factory." That is the only way, otherwise if it has a 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16: we're still all mullet heads that never got past 4th grade and can not hold a job. Dont get pissed at me for saying that, its just the truth about what they think (lol unless you called the 4 cylinder the Camaro Type R, esp using yellow lettering).



I don't know Chuck!, call me slow...but I believe that I have missed your point.

Are you saying that the only way that we can prove we are not 4th grade "edumacated" mullet heads is to take import drivers for a ride and show them the LS1 is faster from 0-60 than a 1.8L Civic. Ummm.....don't you think that they already know that?


Everyone that buys an import (in fact most that buy them new), isn't some dipsh!t ricer. I'd bet some of them are actually car enthusiasts that know what they are buying. And those who aren't enthusiasts, know what they like....and that's what they buy.


And now we have become so clever that we can arbitrarily decide which segment should not be compelled to buy a Camaro in order to protect some undefined reputation.

BTW, what is this reputation that we need to hold and protect from the so called "ricers"? And why would a fresh influx of new customers hurt the Camaro?

Originally posted by Z284ever
[?


BTW...Is there a full moon out tonight? Red Planet and I are in complete agreement.;) [/B]



naw.....we agree on a lot more than we disagree. It is obvious we both have a passion for the Camaro and want it to be the best.

As you can see by this thread, there are NO easy answers. Regardless of what a poll may say on this site, it is likely that the results on other sites may differ. No question about it, the next Camaro HAS to be V8, HAS to be faster and more powerful than the '02 (and lead the class in overall performance) HAS to be recognizable as a Camaro.....and HAS to do it at a Chevrolet price.

(wow...I hate threads that go to a gazillion pages....takes me forever to read thru the various sites!)

Now...I'm not entirely sure why this post was put here....but let me tell you some history.

a while back, we were talking.....about 'what ifs' -- and I missed one meeting where there was a thought about a base 4 cyl engine rather than a V6. Someone made the comment in this meeting that " .....'redplanet' will throw a rod when he hears this!"

And....my first reaction when I heard about this was "no way." But then I started to think about it....what would happen if we offered a 'base' Ecotec' where a young guy or gal (who doesn't have the bucks for insuring a high performance V8) could buy a very reasonably priced Camaro...go down to his or her dealer...and buy a turbocharger that bolted right on...and was warranted by GM? (in my book, we need to be thinking of ways to make it easier for you guys and gals to do mods using validated stuff....validated and warranted by GM.......) Like it or not, a car has to find a way to keep a loyal following...and in the passenger car market today...which is continuing a decline, you'd better find a way to do that. (lest your buyers become older and older and older.........and that spells trouble.) So the way to get a younger buyer, in part, is insurability. The insurance industry is not suddenly going to become 'benevolent' and drop the rates anytime soon on a high performance car....just isn't gonna happen. One of the reasons the tuner market has been so successful is that you can purchase a 4 cyl coupe or sedan at a low price....tune it to kingdom come...and still have reasonable insurance....'cause the insurance company still thinks it has 120hp, not 450hp!

So....not positive that this is why Z284ev. started this post, but I know we talked about it when I visited Chicagoland........and it certainly lit a few fuses!

now.....opinions have been thrown back and forth on this site since the beginning of time......and sometimes those opinions have been based in fact............and other times (more often than not) opinions have not been based in fact......

As I've said in person and on the radio and on the TV and on this and many other sites many many times...there are tons of reasons why the 4th gen did not sell in huge numbers. One of the reasons is that the style did not change in 10 years.....(this, in a segment where styling is the number one motivator) (that is a fact, by the way---the part about the number one reason for purchase........CAMIP data)

BUT........did anyone ever take the total number of Camaros sold by generation and apply it to the total PASSENGER car market and look at the penetration percent?

Please do..................

I think you'd be surprised to find that the 4th gen was not the failure that many on this site think it was. (it sold well over 100,000 a year early in the lifecycle...not including Firebird) Don't forget, the total passenger car market has declined over the past twenty years as buyers moved to trucks. Moreover, in 1967, Honda didn't even build a car for the United States....Nissan was Datsun, Toyota was unheard of in many states.......and many people who had heard of 'em called 'em "TIE - otas" and Mitsubishi, Lexus, Infinity, Isuzu, Kia, Hyundai, etc were not even thought of in terms of a network of dealerships in the United States......................so.........you have to look at a much LARGER picture before making assumptions............

NOW.......

The next gen Camaro has to sell a reasonable volume over the lifecyle.......and there are ways to do that. Yup...styling has to change and be updated....Mustang had updates every two/three years including front and rear caps, sheetmetal, interior, wheels, etc. Did I want to change the 4th gen stylingwise? BOY HOWDY! (but remember that fellow whose name started with a Z?) The money we did get went into powertrain improvements and things like traction control and electronic braking, etc......and the car has to improve in all ways......and still be 'class leading' in terms of overall performance, quality, reliability, etc.

Marketing/advertising has been beaten to death by a lot of people....but they don't see the bigger picture...and they weren't privy to internal numbers and a lot of info. It's one thing to be able to talk about it...another all together when you're the guy or gal that has responsibility to the stockholder. (I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about Sr. Mgmt.) Like it or not, GM is in the business to make money.........the stockholder demands it..........get used to it.

The original success of the Camaro...wayyyyyy back in the fall of '66 I believe was the total package.....a kick-ass styled car that rode great (read the literature from back then) handled well, gave you performance (if you so wished) that approached Corvette at a more reasonable price point that just about everyone could afford. Furthermore, it allowed you to tailor a car "just for you." with a gajillion options. The option thing ain't gonna happen, guys and gals, because 1967 was not 2003. The world has changed and you'd bankrupt yourself out of the chute.....so we have to get smarter at offering 'packages' along with "Regular Production Accessories" (which we are now doing on several truck lines....the truck is built without the 'accessory' but it shows on the invoice and the accessory is shipped to the dealer for installation...........

Furthermore, the car has to be built to make it easy to add performance items......(and I won't go into that right now.....for confidentiality reasons........)

.............. (whew..........)..........

I guess I'm all over the place in my thoughts as I type this........but had to chime in.........

Evening Red,

I like the idea of supporting the Camaro with more 'aftermarket' accessories, but would an Ecotec Camaro be stepping on toes? If the performance of the V8 Camaro is going to be better than the 4th gen, 130 HP - 320 HP is a huge gap (not accounting for the underrated LS1 horsepower numbers). Would an Ecotec base model hurt the performance and technology in a V6 Camaro? On top of that, would it step on the toes of the Cobalt/Cobalt SS? Would the Cobalt/SS take *too much* sales from an Ecotec Camaro? People tend to go for compact cars when they want 4-cyl. performance.

Makes one wonder if the size of a potential next-gen Camaro is being hinted at here...

I like a lot of what I am hearing about the future Camaro here... but I honestly think that a base V6 is more appropriate, and can still offer everything being presented here... factory backed, dealer installed turbo / supercharging, etc...

Also, I'm glad the styling updates are being addressed. To me, this would go a step away from a retro theme (I hope)... I'd think a retro styled debut would "paint yourself into a corner" as far as future (and hopefully frequent) styling freshenings go.

It's good to hear a lot of stuff is being discussed where it counts.

Originally posted by Red Planet

So....not positive that this is why Z284ev. started this post, but I know we talked about it when I visited Chicagoland........and it certainly lit a few fuses!




Wow! I'm surprised you didn't go over the character limit on that post.:eek:

Believe it or not...in between making a living and catering to every whim from my wife and kids.....I spend alot of time thinking about what would make Camaro a better car...a more successful car.

For some of the same reasons you mentioned, I started thinking about Ecotec and Camaro sometime ago..... http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41297&highlight=Ecotec......especially, since GM seemed poised to turn Ecotec from merely basic motivation, to an honest to Betsy, highly tunable performance choice.

After our conversation in Chicago....I started thinking about it alittle harder.

Why here?

Because this forum is the Mecca of all things regarding future Camaros. We have the liveliest debates and most advanced idea sharing on this topic, than anywhere else on the net....maybe even anywhere else period!

The point of all this, I guess, is my belief that Camaro must evolve to succeed. That doesn't mean throwing away the "formula" that is Camaro.....believe me, I would never stand for that.

But Camaro's perception must somehow be enhanced by those who would (or even currently wouldn't) consider buying them.

V8's are an absolute must. But I believe that it would sure help if their were a Camaro variant that was easy to afford, easy to insure, easy to hot rod, tapped into a growing aftermarket....and of course great looking and fun to drive.

For all those waiting for a $20K 400hp V8 Camaro.......I've got some news for you..IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN .
And it's not realistic to expect it.

Maybe Ecotec is the answer...maybe not. But it's a segment, a price point, and a demographic that needs to be addressed...and it needs to be addressed by Camaro.

Anyone have any better ideas.............?

Yeah, make the Z28 the top car. ;)

A four cylinder in a Camaro? Heyall naw!! I don't care if it puts out a thousand horsepower, NO! As for everyone talking about the blown 6cyls...why not just put the 4.3 from an s-10 in there? I have an S-10 with this motor, and its VERY impressive. I have 31 inch all terrains and I can still spin em:D

Originally posted by Z284ever
I don't know Chuck!, call me slow...but I believe that I have missed your point.

Are you saying that the only way that we can prove we are not 4th grade "edumacated" mullet heads is to take import drivers for a ride and show them the LS1 is faster from 0-60 than a 1.8L Civic. Ummm.....don't you think that they already know that?


Everyone that buys an import (in fact most that buy them new), isn't some dipsh!t ricer. I'd bet some of them are actually car enthusiasts that know what they are buying. And those who aren't enthusiasts, know what they like....and that's what they buy.


And now we have become so clever that we can arbitrarily decide which segment should not be compelled to buy a Camaro in order to protect some undefined reputation.

BTW, what is this reputation that we need to hold and protect from the so called "ricers"? And why would a fresh influx of new customers hurt the Camaro?

Yep, totally missed my point. They know their cars are slower, but how many of them have ridden in an FBody? Im sure you could count that on one hand. Serious, go find someone, take them for a ride and beat the hell out of it. Park the car and see if they dont get out grinning ear to ear. Try it.

It's not about excluding anyone from our missing teeth club, its about educating them on what a bone-ass-stock fbody does. GM didnt do a good job getting the word out, so a possible fix is to stuff a 4 cylinder in the car? No, you make it the same damn way it always has (aside from the duke which most of us try to forget) and you let the people know whats up. Is Toyota putting a 4 cylinder in the Supra? Nissan in the Skyline? They're adding cylinders to the mix, and some of you want to move the other way? Sick.

Originally posted by Chuck!
Yep, totally missed my point. They know their cars are slower, but how many of them have ridden in an FBody? Im sure you could count that on one hand. Serious, go find someone, take them for a ride and beat the hell out of it. Park the car and see if they dont get out grinning ear to ear. Try it.

It's not about excluding anyone from our missing teeth club, its about educating them on what a bone-ass-stock fbody does. GM didnt do a good job getting the word out, so a possible fix is to stuff a 4 cylinder in the car? No, you make it the same damn way it always has (aside from the duke which most of us try to forget) and you let the people know whats up. Is Toyota putting a 4 cylinder in the Supra? Nissan in the Skyline? They're adding cylinders to the mix, and some of you want to move the other way? Sick.

Well said, my friend!

:bow:

Give them a ride, and you still won't sway the majority. Most already know f-bods are fast/faster.

It's just the whole loyalty/prefrences thing (which most of us here have too). A lot here wouldn't be caught dead in an import regardless of how good or fast it is. Take that and multiply it by 4, and you have the typical import driver. Give them a ride, and they'll applaud the acceleration and diss the handling, weight, ergonomics, quality, styling, etc....They also have this perception of american cars as being low-tech, gas guzzling, garage magnets too. A ride alone will not change these perceptions.

Import guys for the most will stay import. For that reason, i don't think GM should specifically cater to such market when the product in general wouldn't appeal to them anyways. They should stick to their core/regular buyers (v6 and v8 enthusiast).

I hang around a lot of import sites and guys, and this is true. I really think import buyers are a lot more discriminating than us. If you want to attract such market, let the ION Redline, Cobalt SS, or some other GM sport compact do that. The camaro doesn't need import buyers, and import buyers (generally speaking) don't need/want the camaro. The Mustang seems to sell well (best selling sporty car), and i don't see Ford trying to cater mustangs to the 4cy import guys. Ford just caters to their usually core market, and the F-bod should do the same.

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Give them a ride, and you still won't sway the majority. Most already know f-bods are fast/faster.

It's just the whole loyalty/prefrences thing (which most of us here have too). A lot here wouldn't be caught dead in an import regardless of how good or fast it is. Take that and multiply it by 4, and you have the typical import driver. Give them a ride, and they'll applaud the acceleration and diss the handling, weight, ergonomics, quality, styling, etc....They also have this perception of american cars as being low-tech, gas guzzling, garage magnets too. A ride alone will not change these perceptions.

Import guys for the most will stay import. For that reason, i don't think GM should specifically cater to such market when the product in general wouldn't appeal to them anyways. They should stick to their core/regular buyers (v6 and v8 enthusiast).

I hang around a lot of import sites and guys, and this is true. I really think import buyers are a lot more discriminating than us. If you want to attract such market, let the ION Redline, Cobalt SS, or some other GM sport compact do that. The camaro doesn't need import buyers, and import buyers (generally speaking) don't need/want the camaro. The Mustang seems to sell well (best selling sporty car), and i don't see Ford trying to cater mustangs to the 4cy import guys. Ford just caters to their usually core market, and the F-bod should do the same.

I agree with this whole-heartedly as well.

What I got from Chuck!'s post was, however, that there are a lot of clueless folks running around who do think that "VTEC" is some magically engine device that makes them faster than anything out there... a good portion probably don't even know what that means.

A lot of people line up on the street against a Z28 or T/A and honestly think they are gonna lay the smack down on the 'dinosaur Camaro or Firebird"... and some even probably think the actually one with the "ricer flyby" when they flip on the hazzrds 5 seconds after the Z28 driver let of the throttle.

Originally posted by Chuck!
It's not about excluding anyone from our missing teeth club, its about educating them on what a bone-ass-stock fbody does. GM didnt do a good job getting the word out, so a possible fix is to stuff a 4 cylinder in the car?

That's still not going to make anyone buy one...or not too many anyway.

And the word was out....whether GM got it out or not. Sure everyone knew F-cars were fast. They also knew they were very old, had a live rear axle, stale styling, low end interiors and were larger than their parents SUV's.

Oh...and for most of these people, the V8 models were unreachable, from an initial purchase and insurability point of view.

Originally posted by Z284ever
That's still not going to make anyone buy one...or not too many anyway.

And the word was out....whether GM got it out or not. Sure everyone knew F-cars were fast. They also knew they were very old, had a live rear axle, stale styling, low end interiors and were larger than their parents SUV's.

Oh...and for most of these people, the V8 models were unreachable, from an initial purchase and insurability point of view.


... and even with all of these further reasons.... a 4-cylinder engine is the savior?

Originally posted by Darth Xed
... and even with all of these further reasons.... a 4-cylinder engine is the savior?

Hey, I'm open to suggestion. What Camaro variant will be cheap to purchase, cheap to insure, very hotroddable, with factory and aftermarket support...and have an engine that GM is planning to really turn up the wick on.

Maybe it's not the Ecotec......what is it then?

Originally posted by Darth Xed
... and even with all of these further reasons.... a 4-cylinder engine is the savior?

Not just a 4-cylinder , its a Supercharged 4 cylinder.

a 240HP S/C ecotec, should draw in some different customers and be faster than most 3rd Gen. V8 cars.

Saturn races a 315HP turbo Ecotec, This could be a very hot rod able engine, THe only way it should make it into a camaro is if it puts out better HP #s than most V6s

Like I said, try it. Try it then come back here and tell me that they want anything but a high hp V8. Ive been there before, Im not pulling this **** out of my ass.

I like Red's suggestioon of a factory-warrantied, dealer installed turbocharger or supercharger to be available to the base car... I just think you are so much further ahead by applying these good ideas to a base V6 rather than 4-banger...

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I like Red's suggestioon of a factory-warrantied, dealer installed turbocharger or supercharger to be available to the base car... I just think you are so much further ahead by applying these good ideas to a base V6 rather than 4-banger...

Ok, I could live with that...if that could fulfill the previous criteria.

Tell me why, though.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Hey, I'm open to suggestion. What Camaro variant will be cheap to purchase, cheap to insure, very hotroddable, with factory and aftermarket support...and have an engine that GM is planning to really turn up the wick on.

Maybe it's not the Ecotec......what is it then?

The base Camaro should be a 4.3 liter V6 RS. That would be awesome! Its a V6, which intern means, better mileage, insurance is low, and its got enough power to rip apart GT's:bow:

I also think that if Z/28's and SS's are made together, the SS should have more of a performance edge over the Z/28, and the Z/28 an edge in handling...ya know, like in the good ole' days!

That's what I think GM should do! And it's not a bad idea, is it?

The 4.3L is on its way out now that the 4.2L I6 is in. Preferably a more car-like engine should go in -- 3.6L architecture, perhaps?

Originally posted by KwikistZ
The base Camaro should be a 4.3 liter V6 RS. That would be awesome! Its a V6, which intern means, better mileage, insurance is low, and its got enough power to rip apart GT's:bow:

I also think that if Z/28's and SS's are made together, the SS should have more of a performance edge over the Z/28, and the Z/28 an edge in handling...ya know, like in the good ole' days!

That's what I think GM should do! And it's not a bad idea, is it?

The Z28 needs it's own advantages over the SS that's for sure. It shouldn't be the SS's b****, never was or intended to be.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Ok, I could live with that...if that could fulfill the previous criteria.

Tell me why, though.

#1) Image. Camaro's should not have a 4-banger image. It's not what a muscle/pony car is about.

#2) Power. The base Camaro would start off ahead with a N/A 6 over a N/A 4.

#3) Differentiation. Let a SC'd/Turbo'd Cobalt SS take this market. Be something different.

#4) Torque. All-important. While it's not impossible for a 4-banger to delver decent torque, I'd imagine most V6's would inherantly have more...


(I may think of more but it is early ... I neeed coffee! :o )

Originally posted by Darth Xed
#1) Image. Camaro's should not have a 4-banger image. It's not what a muscle/pony car is about.

#2) Power. The base Camaro would start off ahead with a N/A 6 over a N/A 4.

#3) Differentiation. Let a SC'd/Turbo'd Cobalt SS take this market. Be something different.

#4) Torque. All-important. While it's not impossible for a 4-banger to delver decent torque, I'd imagine most V6's would inherantly have more...


(I may think of more but it is early ... I neeed coffee! :o )

I don't disagree. But would a V6 be as easy to insure, purchase and have the aftermarket support of an Ecotec?

Originally posted by Z284ever
I don't disagree. But would a V6 be as easy to insure, purchase and have the aftermarket support of an Ecotec?

I don't see any reason why not....

A 4-cylinder does not automatically equal lower insurance rates either.

A 4-cylinder Honda Civic is more to ensure than a V6 Buick Century....

Originally posted by Z284ever
I don't disagree. But would a V6 be as easy to insure, purchase and have the aftermarket support of an Ecotec?

aftermarket support WOULD be there.
look at all the performance products for the 3.8's and 3.4's found in 4th gen camaros.

What about sticking the blown 3.8 from a GTP in a Camaro? OBVIOUSLY swap in a transmission instead of the trans axle. That would be pretty cool, I think!

And seriously, if Chevy put a 4cyl in the base Camaro, and a 400hp V8 in the Z and SS, sooooo much respect would be lost, EVEN if the V8's are pushing high numbers. 4cyl's are for ricers and sunflowers...not muscle cars:rolleyes:

Originally posted by KwikistZ
What about sticking the blown 3.8 from a GTP in a Camaro? OBVIOUSLY swap in a transmission instead of the trans axle. That would be pretty cool, I think!



Yeah, I think that would pretty cool too......but remember that price point.... T*W*E*N*T*Y G*R*A*N*D

Originally posted by Z284ever
Yeah, I think that would pretty cool too......but remember that price point.... T*W*E*N*T*Y G*R*A*N*D

Agreed.

That is one of the reasons why the suggestion of the factory-warranted, dealer installed S/C or T/C is pretty exciting.

Keep the cost down initally... but have bolt on, warranted power available.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Agreed.

That is one of the reasons why the suggestion of the factory-warranted, dealer installed S/C or T/C is pretty exciting.

Keep the cost down initally... but have bolt on, warranted power available.

If by bolt on you mean check the box next to the Z28 option.

Originally posted by Chuck!
If by bolt on you mean check the box next to the Z28 option.

:lol:

Well... yes, exactly! :lol: :D

Originally posted by Darth Xed
#1) Image. Camaro's should not have a 4-banger image. It's not what a muscle/pony car is about.

#2) Power. The base Camaro would start off ahead with a N/A 6 over a N/A 4.

#3) Differentiation. Let a SC'd/Turbo'd Cobalt SS take this market. Be something different.

#4) Torque. All-important. While it's not impossible for a 4-banger to delver decent torque, I'd imagine most V6's would inherantly have more...

(I may think of more but it is early ... I neeed coffee! :o )

Nobody ever said anything about a N/A I4, infact I bet 100% of the people here would say that is a bad idea.

S/C I4 is a differnt story, but it must put out more HP and TQ than the avg V6.

Cobalt is FWD and FWD sucks ;) :D

Originally posted by Z28x
Nobody ever said anything about a N/A I4, infact I bet 100% of the people here would say that is a bad idea.

S/C I4 is a differnt story, but it must put out more HP and TQ than the avg V6.

Cobalt is FWD and FWD sucks ;) :D

The jist of what I got from Red Planet was that they are seriosuly looking at a factory-warranted, dealer-installed turbo charger or super charger kit for an F5 base Camaro...

For a lot of reasons, but primarily to keep down initial cost, potentially lower insurance rates (as opposed to the T/C or S/C already being there from the factory), and offer performance 'mods' to the base car.

If the Ecotech came from the factory already with the S/C, all that would be a moot point...

Originally posted by Darth Xed
The jist of what I got from Red Planet was that they are seriosuly looking at a factory-warranted, dealer-installed turbo charger or super charger kit for an F5 base Camaro...

For a lot of reasons, but primarily to keep down initial cost, potentially lower insurance rates (as opposed to the T/C or S/C already being there from the factory), and offer performance 'mods' to the base car.

If the Ecotech came from the factory already with the S/C, all that would be a moot point... Well if that happens, I hope to God its a supercharged V6 instead of the 4 banger.

Camaro should never have a 4 cylinder. :irk:

Originally posted by Darth Xed
The jist of what I got from Red Planet was that they are seriosuly looking at a factory-warranted, dealer-installed turbo charger or super charger kit for an F5 base Camaro...

For a lot of reasons, but primarily to keep down initial cost, potentially lower insurance rates (as opposed to the T/C or S/C already being there from the factory), and offer performance 'mods' to the base car.

If the Ecotech came from the factory already with the S/C, all that would be a moot point...

THat is a good point, a S/C I4 wouldn't be any cheaper to insure than a V6

Originally posted by Z28x
THat is a good point, a S/C I4 wouldn't be any cheaper to insure than a V6 That's true.

Case in point, when I checked insurance rates for my 16 year-old stepson, the insurance on a 95 V6 Mustang was $1000/ year higher than for a 95 V8 Mustang GT.

It's reverse logic. More inexperienced drivers go for the lesser car thinking insurance will be cheaper. Because of their inexperience they get into more accidents than fewer experienced drivers in the car with more HP. Thusly the rates go up for the lesser vehicle.

If I wanted a car with a sc Ecotec, I'd probably want it in something smaller than am F-body. Although I really doubt I'd want it at all. :)

I don't know any ricers, but I can appreciate their interest in turning wrenches just like the rest of us. That said, is there something in their culture that they would not want to turn wrenches on a CHEVY? What I mean is, maybe it's not just the 4cyls and power adders they prefer, but maybe they really want it in an IMPORT. If that were the case, I don't know that a dealer installed optional power adder would really be relevant.

I don't know all that many Camaro owners, but of all the ones I know at work (about 8) ALL of them have V8's. So I just don't know how well this whole blown 4 banger plan would go over w/ the kids. I must say though that my gut feeling says no, There are so many things about the Camaro that don't fit the ricers criteria, that I'm not sure I'd even waste the effort to attract them.

The poll (do you drive your f-bod year round) on the front page got me thinking...An AWD option on the base camaro would sound a bit more attractive than a S/c'ed I-4/v-6 i'd think. People don't generally buy the base for performance (that's what the Z and SS are for), so why not increase the practicality and offer AWD as optional? That’d suite the non-performance buyer (which is most everyone) better. AWD would come in handy in places like MN too.

Given a base 230-240hp N/A 3.9L pushrod, 0-60 in the 6’s and ¼ miles in the upper 14’s would probably be possible as well. It might cost a more than a S/c Dohc I-4 or maybe a S/c’ed pushrod v6, but it makes more sense and comes off (to me) as the more attractive option. It's sporty enough and more practical for the average consumer. Those that want RWD could opt to stick with the standard and cheaper RWD.

The question is, how feasible is an AWD option chassis and platform wise? Kind of hard to tell when we don't even know the platfrom the F5 will be on. Any speculations?

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
...An AWD option on the base camaro


That sounds like a decent idea to me, but I imagine some Z28 & SS owners would want AWD on their cars too. But then again, others would still want RWD. :think:

I say we end this on we have the Camaro, RS, Z28, and SS...and maybe the occationaly COPO 427 car:bow:

Camaro - 3.8 (AWD option)
RS - Blown 3.8(for the little performance people:rolleyes: and the AWD option)
Z28 - 350 with handling upgrades
SS - 350 with straight line upgrades

Cool? Ok, lets go to chevy now:D

Originally posted by JEDCamino
That sounds like a decent idea to me, but I imagine some Z28 & SS owners would want AWD on their cars too. But then again, others would still want RWD. :think:

Now how weird would that be to see a Z28/SS pull the front wheels off the ground and they are spinning wildly....:eek: :confused: