still cant decide : auto or manual

I will be 20 this summer and my V6 has been nothing short of awsome up to this point. I am considering moving up to a 01 or 02 SS in a year or so.

I drove a friends mom's 97 Z28 M6 and it was a completely different animal. It was not nearly as easy or relaxing to drive, it really took some effort to drive where as my camaro you simply go. The clutch was heavy as hell and even though hers was not hurst, (it was standard setup) it was notchie, every gear had it's place and you couldnt try to go fast.

I dont know, it was a blast with the manual but....she drives it only a few times a year, I drive mine every day to work and school in rain and snow, (about 12-15K a year) after reading that thread of the shifting problems I am wondering if I should just get another A4.

I have no complaints with the A4 other then the fact that im not shifting and I miss out on that some times:(

long term, what do you guys think?

I would say go with the M6... it becomes second nature and you realy have a better feel for the car and the road..... also...the Ls1 clutch is not as heavy as the Lt1

The LS1's are lighter clutches- although this is not to my liking. I have a Centerforce DF which is very heavy, but you get used to it quickly.

I personally think you'd be a fool to drive an f body w/ the stock shifter. I have just a hurst base but you can tear through the gears if you know what you're doing.


I'd just drive the car for a week, give your self a chance to get used to i.

The T56 is a better tranny in the long run, the 4L60E can be kinda picky about passing through more power sometimes. I love the A4. I comute to school everyday in traffic. no clutch = no problem with knees. (Hurt left knee from last manual car :mad: ) Although, there are times where I really miss driving a manual. But, the A4 is better for drag racinging, so.......if you like that kind of thing and also do a lot of commuting, I'd get an A4. You can generally find them for 1-3K$ less than the M6. They are also easier to find.

As you probably know, Chris, you will get very biased answers here... ;) Most people usually tend to strongly support what ever they have.

What I can tell you from my experience is that what ever car I am using as a daily driver, it will have an automatic transmission. An occasional driver might be a different thing. :think:

I learned to drive with a manual tranny and drove the first 15 some years w/a vehicle w/an auto tranny, but when I got my first daily driver with an auto, I haven't looked back. :)

For racing, autos tend to be faster or at least they are more consistent. Reliability wise, manual might have an edge... :think:

Please note that a properly maintained stock 4L60E is good for well over 100K miles, though. Not sure how well stock clutch, synchros etc. hold up in the T56's, but I've heard and read them breaking, too.

All in all, try and see if you can loan a car w/manual tranny for a week or so and see how you like it. There's really no other way to know it except actually driving one for a longer period of time.

My 2 cents. :D Good luck, which ever you decide to go with! :thumb:

TS

I could be wrong (certainly wouldn't be the first time) but it sounds like you want an A4. You referred to an M6 as not relaxing and taking effort to drive. I drove a stick for two years and liked it alot. I have had a lot of cars since then which have all been automatics and enjoyed the convienience of them. Now I have an LS1 A4 and I regret not holding out for an M6.

I owed 10k on the camaro I traded in for my formula and they only gave me 8k for the trade. I had 1k cash so I had to finance the entire formula plus the 1k plus a 1300 dollar warranty. Needless to say at this point I can not sell my car and get an M6 without somewhere around 6k cash and a A4 to M6 conversion is 3500 to 4k from what I understand so that would actually be cheaper.

My point for telling you this is DO NOT make the same mistake I did. Get what you want. It sounds like you want an A4 to me but if you have any doubts then hold off till your sure. An A4 with good tires and a 3200-4000 stall TC is a kick a$$ combo for the strip I have been told so that will be my goal to ease my pain of not getting what I wanted.

Test drive both as many times as you need to but get what you want the first time around and you'll be :)

Good Luck

To me, autos are boring and a few tenths/mph slower than a well driven M6...and definitely at a disadvantage from a roll (i.e. on the street). But hey, M6s aren't for everyone...and they're hard to find. Oh, and no one knows how to drive an M6 well. You'd probably be better off in an A4, if you care about how relaxing the car is to drive.

Please note that a properly maintained stock 4L60E is good for well over 100K miles, though. Not sure how well stock clutch, synchros etc. hold up in the T56's, but I've heard and read them breaking, too.
So, you're implying that the 4L60E is a more reliable tranny?

Did the bias come after the car purchase, or before it? I wouldn't drive it if I didn't want it in the first place. Place me in an A4 and my opinion wouldn't change. My first f-body was an A4 Tuned Port T/A. There's no need to rationalize about why I "chose" (ended up with) an A4, because I didn't.

I agree sounds like you want an A4.. I will say that I prefer an M6 eventhough I drive an A4 car for one reason, M6s are hard to find in my area, eventhough 4 months after buying my car, a local dealer did get an M6 01 Formula.. Trust me if I would have had a choice on either M6 or A4, I would have jumped for an M6 but oh well. One thing is nice when you hit Traffic an A4 is nice since you don't have to worry about shifting but the M6 is just in my opinion a lot more fun to drive!

Go figure I have an A4 in my z28 but my project will have an M6 when I am done with restoring it... If you like to just jump in and drive the car w/ out worrying about a clutch, then get the A4, besides from what I have been reading is that either of these cars are fast, it just depends on a couple of areas, 1. How available are M6s in your area(kind of like West Coast are is full of 67 - 72 Chev/GMC LWB Trucks for cheap and the SWB are more expensive because they are the most desirable, where as East Coast wants the LWB trucks and the SWB trucks are Cheaper Go Figure) and 2. Do you just want an A4!! I just say get what you want and don't let anyone tell you differently..

Charlie

if the person really knows how to drive the manual will be faster than the auto but if ur just an average joe then the auto is faster. unlike what some ppl think the t56 is a NICE NICE NICE tranny (heck the viper has one if that tells you anything) and can take abuse as long as you know how to drive (i just replied to a person that probly doesn't know how to shift so his tranny is messed up).

i personally bought a manual and am going to get am 8.8 or 9 inch rear this winter. its all upto you and what YOU like. just remember the clutch packs on the auto's like to go out

Originally posted by ChrisLS1Bird
So, you're implying that the 4L60E is a more reliable tranny?


No. I am just stating my experience w/114K+ 4L60E on my old LT1 and what I have heard/read about the T56.

Nowhere did I say either one of them is more reliable than the other. Or did I? :confused: If I did, that was definetely not my intention.

That's all... :thumb:

Originally posted by red91tsiawd
if the person really knows how to drive the manual will be faster than the auto but if ur just an average joe then the auto is faster. unlike what some ppl think the t56 is a NICE NICE NICE tranny (heck the viper has one if that tells you anything) and can take abuse as long as you know how to drive (i just replied to a person that probly doesn't know how to shift so his tranny is messed up).

i personally bought a manual and am going to get am 8.8 or 9 inch rear this winter. its all upto you and what YOU like. just remember the clutch packs on the auto's like to go out

Well I have to agree that the manual will be faster then an Auto for Top Speed, but then I have to add this fact as well, Can anyone out shift a computer ?? Nope not possible, that is why an A4 car will have better times then an M6 car but when you notice the MPH, then the M6 has a higher MPH but actually I prefer a Manual myself but I will admit that I cannot shift faster then a computer though...

Charlie

autos are for wussies
:eek:
**DUCKS**

just kiddin guys!!:D :D :D

hey someone had to say it, right?:D :D :D

Originally posted by dmnall
Well I have to agree that the manual will be faster then an Auto for Top Speed, but then I have to add this fact as well, Can anyone out shift a computer ?? Nope not possible, that is why an A4 car will have better times then an M6 car but when you notice the MPH, then the M6 has a higher MPH but actually I prefer a Manual myself but I will admit that I cannot shift faster then a computer though...

Charlie
No, that's not why an A4 will have better times than an M6 car. Assuming a competent driver, shifting isn't really a factor at all. A higher trap speed means you have more to work with. The ET is in the 60ft, and that's why many A4s have an advantage on M6s at the strip...but what happens when both get equal 60fts?

Aside from the RWHP differences, you're also overlooking the gear ratio differences. The A4 and M6 transmissions are very different. Because the M6 has 6 speeds, it can afford to have a higher ratio in every gear except 1st gear:

1st: 2.66 3.06


2nd: 1.78 1.63


3rd: 1.30 1.00


4th: 1.00 0.70


5th: 0.74 ---


6th: 0.50 ---

It seems this really is about personal preference. I have rersearched transmissions till my eyes almost popped out trying to decide if I want to invest in a TC and trans go kit or pay the money to have a shop do the dreaded A4 to M6 swap.

The majority of the people out there seem to agree on these points:

M6 (with good driver) will beat A4 in 1/4 mile.

A4 (with high stall TC) will beat M6 in 1/4 mile.

A4 is easier to drive in stop and go traffic.

M6 is more fun to drive in free flowing traffic.

M6 (equally modded) will always beat a A4 on the highway at 100+ speeds.

So I have to decide whether I would prefer better 1/4 mile times and the ability to eat a burger while my computer shifts or slightly less 1/4 mile times and having to wait till I get to a cruising speed before I can pick up that burger.

Then again someone on another forum once said He enjoys eating his burger in the A4 while beating your M6 in a race. I about fell out of my chair laughing. I really want the M6 but for less money I can get a TC and get better 1/4 mile times. Tough choice.

The only way you will be 100% happy would be to have one of each! :D

I have an Automatic, and most of the time I love it. My daily driver is a Honda Civic EX with a 5 speed, and it is fun to throw that thing into the corners with a manual transmission. Sometimes I wish I could do some of those things in my T/A, but then other times, Im glad I dont ever have to worry about missed shifts, or not having a 100% perfect shift when Im getting on it.

As you can see, there are pluses and minuses to both transmissions. It comes down to which is more important to you.

If you don't like to shift and you want a comfy car to drive then go with an A4. But, who buys a camaro cause they ride nice and are comfortable to drive?

Anyway, the way I look at it with an M6 you are in control of how much power you have. You can engine brake, you can downshift before exiting a corner... granted you could do this with an A4, but you don't have control of how the shift happens. Personal preference, but I would never buy an A4 SS, shifting makes it fun to drive.

Brian

It's all in what you prefer. Manuals give you more control over the car/better fuel economy and automatics are more consistent for drag racing and more convenient in heavy traffic.

FWIW, I'm swapping my M6 for an A4. I NEVER NEVER drive highways at ridiculous speeds (I like my license), so the M6 really never did much for me. I haven't yet seen (with my eyes) one example of an M6 that could out-60 a convertor car on the street, and I live in Detroit, which IMO rivals Texas for number of fast street cars. It's **usually** 1.5-1.6 vss. 1.8-2.0. I like those numbers, and it's going to be in MY favor, now. Sure, an M6 may recover and around... say... 140 overtake me, but I'll be at destination before I hit 100, and shutting down waiting for the M6 fly-by.

Plus, there's very little by way of components that can be added to an M6 to do much for durability. The Viper T56 doesn't fit the car, and the Z06 parts don't fit the trans. The only other stuff is iron forks, and CF blockers (but only for 98-99, since 00-02 have them).

A properly built A4 can handle considerable abuse, and the PT3400 is a Yank, not much left to say. It'll hold up to my turbo car, and that's more than I can ask from the T56.

And here's the most important part... I can drink my slurpee, eat my hot dog, and talk on my hands-free while in a slow moving traffic jam... Try THAT in an M6! :p

SC

OBTW- I've driven exclusively manuals for 15 years, until now!

I passed up several M6s trying to get an A4. Heck, I had to order my SS from georgia.

I like drinking my slurpee, eating my hot dog and talking on a cellphone while driving.:D

With a high stall converter, i'd be drinking my slurpee, eating my hot dog and talking on a cellphone while tearing up a M6. I don't care about drag racing though, so it isn't a concern of mine.

A4 all the way.

If you get the M6 you are actually getting more car for your money. The M6 costs more to produce than the auto. I believe M6's run over $2000+ You have to pay extra for a Corvette with the M6, auto is standard. Plus with the M6 you will likely put down a few more ponies stock than an auto.

go with the auto, at high speeds with a car like the ss, the last thing i want to worry about is shifting/ missing a shift. i have a z28 a4, modified a little, at over 130 mph, i just worry about the brake, gas, and whats in front of me. stick gets old too.

You also get a few more miles per gallon with the manual. Running premium that can add up after a while. Not to mention you wan't have to spend a grand on a convertor, you can get a cam and headers.

like everyone has said it all depends on your preference. I prefer the M6. My 99 z28 is an M6 and I have been rippin up A4 for fun all over the place. I havent done any mods to my car and I've been destroying both Trans Ams and Camaros. (We wont discuss how bad the Mustang falls behind :cool: ) It all depends on ur skills as a driver. Personally I can smoke a cigarette, talk on the phone and rip through my gears with no problem. Then again I learned to drive stick on a 74 Chevy 10 1/2 ton truck with ceramic button clutch. These are nothin for me. I personally will never go back to an auto unless it is the family car which the wife has to drive too!! (just kiddin ladies :lol: ) But like everyone has been tellin u so far its ur choice and urs alone


Vinny

I believe that it's all about preference too BUT I also am a Strong believer in the whole "if you drive a sports car it better be a Manual."

I see no reason in getting a Camaro or Corvette in an Auto unless you're planning on doing some intense drag racing. I see no fun in auto, but that's just the way I am. I figure that there's no reason to get a Camaro if it's going to be auto.

I understand that you're going to drive it everyday but still, I can...and will drive a Manual everyday. Is it a 325 Horsepower monster..no, but I do know a women in my town that drives a 2000 Camaro SS that's a 6 Speed everyday. I think she's in her 40's.

I love manual's and wouldnt drive any but...that's just my opinion.

I'm not looking for a flame war here but no equally modded M6 is going to rip up any A4 with a high enough stall torque converter. There is a reason the A4's rule at the track. I understand that a stock M6 with decent driver will beat a stock A4 everytime so I believe chenzz when he said he has been rippin up A4's. But if he ever pulls up next to a A4 with 4000+ stall converter with nittos then he may start to wonder why he only sees smoke and dust in front of him but a clear as day picture in the rear view mirror. :)

That said, I have to admit that the "fun factor" goes to M6 hands down. There is nothing quite like ripping through the gears yourself while deciding what rpm you feel like shifting at. They also get better gas mileage on the highway and have the more durable transmission. This however is offset by the need for new clutches and eventual breaking of the rear end that I hear all M6's who launch at the track with the 10 bolt will eventually do.

If you love to shift yourself then get a M6 without hesitation. If you like them both but never go to the track or seldom do then a M6 will probably make you happiest. If you love the track and 1/4 times are what you live for then the A4 would suit you fine. And for those of you who have better halves that make you get a A4 then your consolation prize is a 1.4 second 60' (although to keep some street drivability if it is a daily driver you may have to settle for a smaller TC that only nets you 1.7 second 60' times).

But for gods sake these are awesome and fun cars. Enjoy whatever you have and be happy!

I say, if you want to get a Ls1 then get the M6 but keep your 3.8, they will only give you 6 or 7 for it anyway, If you can't have both I would just keep the 3.8 because having a ls1 A4 is notmuch different than your 3.8, The autos are nicer to have, the M6 i a good smooth trans but like it was said ealier it's nice to sit back and control with one foot.

Also. all of these jokers saying that an M6 will get your a few more miles per gallon have no idea what they are talking about because as far as stopping, starting, and cruising goes,there is really no difference between the 2, the extra gear makes little dfference because the car only takes as much gas as it needs, so it doesn't matter if your crusing at 2300 or 2000 the car is using the same amount of gas.

Originally posted by WhoBetter?

Also. all of these jokers saying that an M6 will get your a few more miles per gallon have no idea what they are talking about because as far as stopping, starting, and cruising goes,there is really no difference between the 2, the extra gear makes little dfference because the car only takes as much gas as it needs, so it doesn't matter if your crusing at 2300 or 2000 the car is using the same amount of gas.
I think you're ignoring the efficiency difference. It takes more torque to drive the A4 than it does the M6. (What is it, a 20% loss versus a 15% loss?)

But honestly, I don't know what you're talking about.

I agree with the entirety of page two of this thread. You A4 guys are absolutely correct.

If anyone actually believes an auto will get better mpg than a 6speed you are smoking something. When I'm on the highway in 6th gear I am only at 1800 rpm maybe at 70-80mph,what is an auto doing at 70 mph? The 6 speed is rated at 28mpg on the highway. The auto is only rated at 25mpg and that's with the 2.73 gears. No way the 3.23 gear is getting close to 30 mpg! Maybe downhill all the way. Plus factor in $700 for a decent torque converter and there is no way you will be anywhere near an M6 in mpg. Factor in we can go from 1st to 4th as well and we use less fuel(although I hate it sometimes).

Go with the standard...I know two of my friends are now looking for manuals after driving mine...the Tremec T56 in the LS1 (98-02)cars isn't quite as nochy or heavy as the Borg Warner in the LT1 cars (93-97) I drive mine daily and when school starts thats 70miles a day and its not hard to drive. You adjust to the clutch being heavy after a day...and I honestly cant remember how the clutch felt in the LS1's I've driven.

you all don't understand how cars work, gas mileage doesn't matter on how fast your engine is turning, it depends simply on the power needed to push the car and what trans you have doesn't matter because the engine receives only as much gas as it needs to keep the car moving, look at any econmic car, there engines go fast but they get better mileage because there engines are smaller. as far as manual having less power loss, that is true but it's only a little, you still have most of the same gears. th M6 is a little more effcien because it has an extra gear but the differnce is not even a point to metion because what really matters is how you drive it.

Gas mileage in many cases does matter how fast your engine is turning...at 1500rpm in an LS1 going say 55mph in 6th gear vs turning 2700 rpm in 4th gear...going in 6th you'll get better mileage PERIOD because you're dumping fuel in there at almost twice the rate...other things such as throttle position and fuel pressure also play a role in gas mileage...RPMS play a role in mileage.

stall the auto

Originally posted by IrocManiac
Gas mileage in many cases does matter how fast your engine is turning...at 1500rpm in an LS1 going say 55mph in 6th gear vs turning 2700 rpm in 4th gear...going in 6th you'll get better mileage PERIOD because you're dumping fuel in there at almost twice the rate...other things such as throttle position and fuel pressure also play a role in gas mileage...RPMS play a role in mileage.

It does not, your engine can be going 2500 and be using less gas than when it's going 1500. It's called air to fuel ratio. Your engine speed only depends on what gear your in and how fast your going, how much gas your feeding it has little to do with it. It's like when you let off the gas, your engine is still going 2500 rpm but it's comsuming no gas because the is has the momentum of the car to keep it going.

When you let off the gas you still CONSUME gas...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I obviously don't need to argue this anymore..

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
It does not, your engine can be going 2500 and be using less gas than when it's going 1500. It's called air to fuel ratio. Your engine speed only depends on what gear your in and how fast your going, how much gas your feeding it has little to do with it. It's like when you let off the gas, your engine is still going 2500 rpm but it's comsuming no gas because the is has the momentum of the car to keep it going.

:lol: It's obvious you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Maybe in a Honda civic hybrid car you can do that but a gasoline engine DOES NOT cut fuel completely just because you let off the gas. I guess I can let my car idle forever since it isn't using any gas!:confused:

Why is this even a concern? I didn't buy an LS1 for gas mileage. In fact, I bought it knowing I am not getting as good of mileage as say a nice economy 4 cyl. I think this thread has run it's course.

M6's are fun to drive and will beat a stock auto.

Stalled autos are rulers at the track and will beat a M6 (equally modded of course).

Both do not get as many miles per gallon as my dream car the yugo did :(

LS1's are all fun!!!!!!!

WooHoo lets peeeeel out tonight baaaaby!!!!!

Originally posted by STOCK1SC
:lol: It's obvious you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Maybe in a Honda civic hybrid car you can do that but a gasoline engine DOES NOT cut fuel completely just because you let off the gas. I guess I can let my car idle forever since it isn't using any gas!:confused:

no you idiot, when your drive train is connected to the wheels and you let off the gas, (your engine is getting no gas!) causes your car to slow down, this means there is nothing but air going thru your engine, hence your car slows down because of motor drag, this is also known as engine braking, only light if any combustion is occuring inside the engine if any sigiicant compusioin was occuring your car would not slow down,

now like wise, when an a4 is interstating, you only have to give enough gas to maintain speed, same is the case with the M6. therefore there is very little difference. this is the point i'm trying to make. if you give more gas you accelerate.

very simply gas = energy, air is free

I think you all are really dense, I've got an engineering degree, i have some clue of how machines work.

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
I think you all are really dense, I've got an engineering degree, i have some clue of how machines work.

What ever you say... :irk:

However, what do you mean by the following:

If you can't have both I would just keep the 3.8 because having a ls1 A4 is notmuch different than your 3.8,

:confused:

I traded a 99 Firebird w/3.8L V6 A4 for my current car and the difference is pretty much like night and day.

:confused:

TS

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
no you idiot, when your drive train is connected to the wheels and you let off the gas, (your engine is getting no gas!) causes your car to slow down, this means there is nothing but air going thru your engine, hence your car slows down because of motor drag, this is also known as engine braking, only light if any combustion is occuring inside the engine if any sigiicant compusioin was occuring your car would not slow down,

now like wise, when an a4 is interstating, you only have to give enough gas to maintain speed, same is the case with the M6. therefore there is very little difference. this is the point i'm trying to make. if you give more gas you accelerate.

very simply gas = energy, air is free

I think you all are really dense, I've got an engineering degree, i have some clue of how machines work.

Dude do you know how a motor runs? "INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE" it is a series of controlled explosions burning a combination of gas and fuel. Without gas you have NO explosions. The motor would die PERIOD. If you have an engineering degree it abviously isn't in the automotive area...

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
no you idiot, when your drive train is connected to the wheels and you let off the gas, (your engine is getting no gas!) causes your car to slow down, this means there is nothing but air going thru your engine, hence your car slows down because of motor drag, this is also known as engine braking, only light if any combustion is occuring inside the engine if any sigiicant compusioin was occuring your car would not slow down,

now like wise, when an a4 is interstating, you only have to give enough gas to maintain speed, same is the case with the M6. therefore there is very little difference. this is the point i'm trying to make. if you give more gas you accelerate.

very simply gas = energy, air is free

I think you all are really dense, I've got an engineering degree, i have some clue of how machines work.

Im only a co-op engineer but i'm engineer enough to call you a dumbass. :lol:

please, stfu- youre making real engineers look bad :mad:


but what do i know, i only worked on brakes:rolleyes:

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
you all don't understand how cars work, gas mileage doesn't matter on how fast your engine is turning, it depends simply on the power needed to push the car and what trans you have doesn't matter because the engine receives only as much gas as it needs to keep the car moving, look at any econmic car, there engines go fast but they get better mileage because there engines are smaller. as far as manual having less power loss, that is true but it's only a little, you still have most of the same gears. th M6 is a little more effcien because it has an extra gear but the differnce is not even a point to metion because what really matters is how you drive it.

shut the **** up!
an auto doesn't even have a gear, none the less "the same gears" fyi

nice ride trey :)

i am pretty sure you are both right kinda. when you back off the gas it does use gas but a very litle amount. thats what i have heard from many people. don't know if any of them there "engineers" though :rolleyes:

Originally posted by mr_muff
nice ride trey :)

i am pretty sure you are both right kinda. when you back off the gas it does use gas but a very litle amount. thats what i have heard from many people. don't know if any of them there "engineers" though :rolleyes:

gas consumption is directly related to the amount of air going into the motor.

even if the throttle is closed, air is still getting through it


he is saying NO gas is being consumed.
I am saying gas is being consumed.
how are we both right? :p

When you back out of the throttle it uses much less gas, then running WOT. Turning more RPMS makes mileage drop if all things were equal. More RPMS at same fuel pressure, equal more fuel per minute being dumped into the motor...I stick by my original posts and this guy needs to read up on the combustion engine.

Originally posted by IrocManiac
When you back out of the throttle it uses much less gas, then running WOT. Turning more RPMS makes mileage drop if all things were equal. More RPMS at same fuel pressure, equal more fuel per minute being dumped into the motor...I stick by my original posts and this guy needs to read up on the combustion engine.
ehhh kinda....

fuel pressure has little to do with it in a propperly tuned vehicle-

you also have to concider that at more rpms, less air is getting into the cyliders (double rpms and the time the valve is open is cut in half) there are other little things that come into play as well that I am just getting a grasp on.

according to your thoery, at cruise- gas milage should double from 4th gear to 6th gear. Id say gas milage increases 25% at best.

gas milage is not directly perportional to rpm

whobetter, are you familar with kilgore ratings, these are the ratings in effiecency of automatic transmisions. If you take two identical F-bodies and one has auto the other a stick and drive them at 70 mph both going the same rpm, the auto will run out of gas first. This is because power required to turn a auto at that rpm is more than to turn the manual. This is why autos are rated at between 20 to 22% drivetrain losses and manuals at between 15 to 18%. It is important to note though that anything with overdrive gears will cosume more power in that gear than it would if it was direct drive or 1 to 1. As far as using gas when let off the throttle. Most fuel injected engines will cut off fuel if you let off the throttle and leave it in that gear to decelerate. This is because there is almost no air being pulled into the cylinder because the thottle plate is closed, and it wouldnt do that cats any good to see that much unburned fuel it would hurt emmisions. There is still a small amount of gas but only as small as the amount of air that can be pulled through closed throttle plates or the IAC.

Originally posted by mikez281LE
whobetter, are you familar with kilgore ratings, these are the ratings in effiecency of automatic transmisions. If you take two identical F-bodies and one has auto the other a stick and drive them at 70 mph both going the same rpm, the auto will run out of gas first. This is because power required to turn a auto at that rpm is more than to turn the manual. This is why autos are rated at between 20 to 22% drivetrain losses and manuals at between 15 to 18%. It is important to note though that anything with overdrive gears will cosume more power in that gear than it would if it was direct drive or 1 to 1. As far as using gas when let off the throttle. Most fuel injected engines will cut off fuel if you let off the throttle and leave it in that gear to decelerate. This is because there is almost no air being pulled into the cylinder because the thottle plate is closed, and it wouldnt do that cats any good to see that much unburned fuel it would hurt emmisions. There is still a small amount of gas but only as small as the amount of air that can be pulled through closed throttle plates or the IAC.

or to keep the engine running:rolleyes:

Ive had nothing but a4's but id go 6spd...more of a fun factor and no denying there faster

Originally posted by treyZ28
gas consumption is directly related to the amount of air going into the motor.

even if the throttle is closed, air is still getting through it


he is saying NO gas is being consumed.
I am saying gas is being consumed.
how are we both right? :p

true you are right, but i think he was trying to say that the litle amount that it is using is not going to do anything to like gas mileage or something. i just quickly read over it, but yea you are the one that is right.

Originally posted by treyZ28
ehhh kinda....

fuel pressure has little to do with it in a propperly tuned vehicle-

you also have to concider that at more rpms, less air is getting into the cyliders (double rpms and the time the valve is open is cut in half) there are other little things that come into play as well that I am just getting a grasp on.

according to your thoery, at cruise- gas milage should double from 4th gear to 6th gear. Id say gas milage increases 25% at best.

gas milage is not directly perportional to rpm

You're right it isn't directly proportional to RPMs but RPMs are a factor in gas mileage PERIOD. Throttle position/fuel pressure do effect mileage, I don't mean fuel pressure in a sense that we set our fuel pressure I mean the pcm...when you roll into the throttle the computer opens the TB, which allows more air and the fuel pressure rises to compensate for the added air.

I said the computer opens the TB, the throttle cable opens the TB...you guys know what I meant...I'm trying to order computer parts, post on here, and talk to four people about computer problems... :mad:

This thread is now locked.

Originally posted by ChrisLS1Bird
This thread is now locked.

huh, don't think so:confused:

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
no you idiot, when your drive train is connected to the wheels and you let off the gas, (your engine is getting no gas!) causes your car to slow down, this means there is nothing but air going thru your engine, hence your car slows down because of motor drag, this is also known as engine braking, only light if any combustion is occuring inside the engine if any sigiicant compusioin was occuring your car would not slow down,

now like wise, when an a4 is interstating, you only have to give enough gas to maintain speed, same is the case with the M6. therefore there is very little difference. this is the point i'm trying to make. if you give more gas you accelerate.

very simply gas = energy, air is free

I think you all are really dense, I've got an engineering degree, i have some clue of how machines work.

Well I have a degree in Information Management and Systems(BA) with no engineering background and I seem to know more about your field than you do. IF ENGINE GETS NO GAS ENGINE WILL DIE! Where did you get your degree from? I think they need to take it away.

Originally posted by STOCK1SC
Well I have a degree in Information Management and Systems(BA) with no engineering background and I seem to know more about your field than you do. IF ENGINE GETS NO GAS ENGINE WILL DIE! Where did you get your degree from? I think they need to take it away.
hell when my motor doesn't get enough fuel it goes BOOM!
this guy is running on no fuel :confused:


wow, the LS1 really is more advanced that the LT1:bow:

well, i have some more support for the LSx side next time they bring up the LT1 vs LS1 debate :lol:

Must be the opti...:cry:



(with that said, my truck has individual coil packs, i wonder if i can hop on this massless perpultion idea :D)


Originally posted by Antz97ZNJ
Ive had nothing but a4's but id go 6spd...more of a fun factor and no denying there faster

watch me :)

omg, this thread had me cracking my ass up with that moron whobetterwhatever's gas mileage explanations! :lol:!!!!

if your engine wasn't getting any gas when you took your foot off the pedal, it'd die you ****in retard. im not even gonna get technical on this discussion as your intelligence obviously wouldn't understand it... so I'll leave it at that. go play with your lego's. :p

Originally posted by GrdLockV6
omg, this thread had me cracking my ass up with that moron whobetterwhatever's gas mileage explanations! :lol:!!!!

if your engine wasn't getting any gas when you took your foot off the pedal, it'd die you ****in retard. im not even gonna get technical on this discussion as your intelligence obviously wouldn't understand it... so I'll leave it at that. go play with your lego's. :p

i think hes better off playing in the mud- really hard for him to apply any of his knowlege to mud

he could be dangerious with legos :p

I dont see how he is denying the gas milage factor. Yes if driven the same way manuals get better gas milage than autos. Though most autos probably get better gas milage than my m6 because of my heavy foot but that is beside the point. argueing about speed is also pointless. Both can be made just as fast as the other, just manuals require a good driver to acheive good times where in an auto you just gotta launch and its over from there. As far as stock, manuals with a good driver are usually faster, sure you can add a converter but the manual can use that same money for other mods to acheive the same times. My point is neither are superior than the other and its personal prefrence.

:eek: I go on vacation for 4 days and my post got blown out of proportion!

For the most part, I have come to the conclusion that it is all going to come down to driving and test driving a SS with the M6.
I realized today the pleasure of not having to wright out a car payment cuz it is the 20th so I am going to enjoy that for a little longer and put some serious miles on my V6 cuz we all know that even though it is showroom condition it is worth squat:(

thanks for all who replyed, the main question was mainly what will hold up for the long run, especialy since I will rarely be in 6th gear and the hole traffic situitation, but in the end it will only be solved by me driving and seeing what I feel.

~Chris

hey, atleast I don't spend thousands of dollars in mods on a car that will be worthless 5 years like most of you ass clowns , but I undrstand why you all do it, It's simply t make up for the holes and unfufilled goals in your lives. yeah, you all can't succeed at anything that takes intelligence or skill to accomplsh so you try to shield you patheticness from others by driving a cool car but your nothing but an average everday person, with average jobs and average boring lives.

Why would anyone get exicted about a different color of gauges or if your car is 1/2 sec faster, or if you have 11" tires, or i you have chrome accents under the hood, whocares? I sure don't
but you all will never admit,

It was time to say it and you all know it's true.

later clowns

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
hey, atleast I don't spend thousands of dollars in mods on a car that will be worthless 5 years like most of you ass clowns , but I undrstand why you all do it, It's simply t make up for the holes and unfufilled goals in your lives. yeah, you all can't succeed at anything that takes intelligence or skill to accomplsh so you try to shield you patheticness from others by driving a cool car but your nothing but an average everday person, with average jobs and average boring lives.

Why would anyone get exicted about a different color of gauges or if your car is 1/2 sec faster, or if you have 11" tires, or i you have chrome accents under the hood, whocares? I sure don't
but you all will never admit,

It was time to say it and you all know it's true.

later clowns

Wow!!! I'm speechless... :eek: :eek: :eek:

:cry: :cry: :cry:

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
hey, atleast I don't spend thousands of dollars in mods on a car that will be worthless 5 years like most of you ass clowns , but I undrstand why you all do it, It's simply t make up for the holes and unfufilled goals in your lives. yeah, you all can't succeed at anything that takes intelligence or skill to accomplsh so you try to shield you patheticness from others by driving a cool car but your nothing but an average everday person, with average jobs and average boring lives.

Why would anyone get exicted about a different color of gauges or if your car is 1/2 sec faster, or if you have 11" tires, or i you have chrome accents under the hood, whocares? I sure don't
but you all will never admit,

It was time to say it and you all know it's true.

later clowns

19 years old
own an 03 silverado
own place
top ranked engineering school
make $20k last year working for only 24 weeks
spent about $25,000 my senior year of highschool- all mine
383 LT1
8'' ****
lots of girls
3.0gpa
know more about brakes than you know about sex, math and your job combine.
when 40% of my class couldn't find a job in a year, i got 3 job offers in 7 weeks.

I think i've proven that i am not a "clown" on a financial, social and mental level.


The truck and camaro were all paid for by yours truely

95% of that money above was mine.


Meaningless life? Average? If you know me, you'd know i'm anything but average.

the average person wears underwear, doesn't set up "livingrooms" we found in the garbage on random peoples front lawns or go couch surfing at 3am.

Yes i do take your statements personally. Are you just upset that you were wrong- beat at your game? Apparently you SUCK at your job/mojor and now that you cant defend your position you resort to childish name caling in an effort to somehow substatiate your flat out wrong view point. Whether or not i spend millions in a car that isn't worth a buck doesn't change the fact that you are a piss poor bottom of the barrel engineer who wont even be average.


Whem i die, and everyone that knew me dies, nothing i did or you did will mean anything. Not the color guages i had or the size of my motor. So what differance does it make what color they are or aren't? Nothign I do will matter so should i just sit around do nothing all die? nah, it brings me peasure. All I can do when I die is to smile and show my teeth, knowing I lived life well and to the fullest. Weather it be 19 years or 125 years.



top of the day to you,

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
hey, atleast I don't spend thousands of dollars in mods on a car that will be worthless 5 years like most of you ass clowns , but I undrstand why you all do it, It's simply t make up for the holes and unfufilled goals in your lives. yeah, you all can't succeed at anything that takes intelligence or skill to accomplsh so you try to shield you patheticness from others by driving a cool car but your nothing but an average everday person, with average jobs and average boring lives.

Why would anyone get exicted about a different color of gauges or if your car is 1/2 sec faster, or if you have 11" tires, or i you have chrome accents under the hood, whocares? I sure don't
but you all will never admit,

It was time to say it and you all know it's true.

later clowns

YOUR AN IDIOT, why do I spend money on steak instead of chicken. Because is tastes better. Why did i buy a v8 camaro instead of a v6 like my old one, Because it performes better. Why mod a car, because it is fun to compete with other modded cars. Just because people mod cars dosn't mean they live worthless lives. Your obviously not a car enthusiast So why don't you just stfu and stop insulting all of us.

Originally posted by AL SS590 M6
huh, don't think so:confused:
At that point, this thing had nowhere to go but flames. Now, I wish my trick had actually worked. Trey has now brought up his 8" ****. WTF is that? How the hell is it even remotely acceptable to bring that up in an LS1 Tech forum?

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
hey, atleast I don't spend thousands of dollars in mods on a car that will be worthless 5 years like most of you ass clowns , but I undrstand why you all do it, It's simply t make up for the holes and unfufilled goals in your lives. yeah, you all can't succeed at anything that takes intelligence or skill to accomplsh so you try to shield you patheticness from others by driving a cool car but your nothing but an average everday person, with average jobs and average boring lives.

Why would anyone get exicted about a different color of gauges or if your car is 1/2 sec faster, or if you have 11" tires, or i you have chrome accents under the hood, whocares? I sure don't
but you all will never admit,

It was time to say it and you all know it's true.

later clowns

:lol: thats the stupidest bunch of BULLSHI* I've ever heard. Many of us have goals, lives and hobbies. I worked two jobs and sold my IROC my freshman year of college to PAY for tuition because I have a goal of finishing school. I have a goal of being successful in the business world and in my family life...I am pretty damn smart scored fabulously on three IQ tests, have a good GPA in school. I think the majority of the people on the board are the same way. You're stereo typing is not wanted around here, so please if you continue to post do not use blanket statements to describe board members, and please don't post nonsense about us not having lives because you were wrong on something...LEARN from it, we're all wrong from time to time its part of LIFE.

Originally posted by ChrisLS1Bird
At that point, this thing had nowhere to go but flames. Now, I wish my trick had actually worked. Trey has now brought up his 8" ****. WTF is that? How the hell is it even remotely acceptable to bring that up in an LS1 Tech forum?

Word!

:rolleyes:

Well here we have one that has no idea what he is talking about! He apparently needs some sort of hobby or a girlfriend or something!!!
Those of us that get to spend money on our cars are probably interested in this sort of thing and take great Pride in our cars and enjoy the hobby. If this does not pertain to you then take you r whiney little attitude to the toilet and flush it and leave us alone before someone gets PISSED!!!!!
Originally posted by WhoBetter?
hey, atleast I don't spend thousands of dollars in mods on a car that will be worthless 5 years like most of you ass clowns , but I undrstand why you all do it, It's simply t make up for the holes and unfufilled goals in your lives. yeah, you all can't succeed at anything that takes intelligence or skill to accomplsh so you try to shield you patheticness from others by driving a cool car but your nothing but an average everday person, with average jobs and average boring lives.

Why would anyone get exicted about a different color of gauges or if your car is 1/2 sec faster, or if you have 11" tires, or i you have chrome accents under the hood, whocares? I sure don't
but you all will never admit,

It was time to say it and you all know it's true.

later clowns

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
later clowns

An empty promise made to look like he was leaving. He is still here, thinking that people are trying to impress him.

Some people just bark all day.

Treyz28, let me say this, anyone who has 9,000+ freaking posts cannot have a freaking life, either you've been on this board since you were born or you spend 4 hours a day replying, or your hacker and you get your perverted thrills by alteing your info.

Also tell us how many credit cards you've maxed out or i'll just say i don't care how muh money your parents gave you, your still just an average joker, with an average job and your only ambitions are to spoiler yourself with a nice car and never really accompish anything and die just another nameless nobody.

Also I consider that 75% of the people on here are completly full of crap which you obviously are.

All you have done is prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that you are the biggest jackass walking the earth, and all these clowns that agree with you do so because they're just like you, average people who have given up their dreams for a stupid hobby, child's play.

You ain't nothing but a damn fool,

Who has given up their dreams? TreyZ28 hasn't given up his dreams...I haven't given up mine...I don't think anyone that has responded to anything in this thread has given up their dreams...big deal he has 9000 posts, maybe its because he likes helping people with their cars? Maybe its because he posts on here 4 hrs a day maybe both...who cares? He's doing good for himself and it doesn't really matter what you or anyone else says, we do what makes US happy, if thats 9000 posts or 1 posts or never visiting a message board who cares...why does it matter to you? Why don't you just realize you were wrong, LEARN and move on?

Who has given up their dreams? TreyZ28 hasn't given up his dreams...I haven't given up mine...I don't think anyone that has responded to anything in this thread has given up their dreams...big deal he has 9000 posts, maybe its because he likes helping people with their cars? Maybe its because he posts on here 4 hrs a day maybe both...who cares? He's doing good for himself and it doesn't really matter what you or anyone else says, we do what makes US happy, if thats 9000 posts or 1 posts or never visiting a message board who cares...why does it matter to you? Why don't you just realize you were wrong, LEARN and move on?

Where's a moderator when you need moderation?

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
Treyz28, let me say this, anyone who has 9,000+ freaking posts cannot have a freaking life, either you've been on this board since you were born or you spend 4 hours a day replying, or your hacker and you get your perverted thrills by alteing your info.

Also tell us how many credit cards you've maxed out or i'll just say i don't care how muh money your parents gave you, your still just an average joker, with an average job and your only ambitions are to spoiler yourself with a nice car and never really accompish anything and die just another nameless nobody.

Also I consider that 75% of the people on here are completly full of crap which you obviously are.

All you have done is prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that you are the biggest jackass walking the earth, and all these clowns that agree with you do so because they're just like you, average people who have given up their dreams for a stupid hobby, child's play.

You ain't nothing but a damn fool,

If i am a fool, and I am a Mechanical engineer like you (sort of) what does that make you? concidering i know car still runs when i take my foot off the gas :lol:
If i'm just a plane jane joker, then so are you minus one.

My parents have given me about $5000 total. None of which i really needed.

Credit cars maxed out? I just paid off my $415 credit card bill today. So i am debt free aside from truck payments really. And i have wellover 1/3 of the truck already paid off.


Can i ask you what makes you a namefull somebody? At the end of the day i have nothing but a roof over my head, some nice clothes, some cars and fridge full of beer, and a few good friends.

I'm somebody to everyone i give a **** about. I stand tall when everyone else sits the **** down. I am the humor in a serious situation, I'm the modivation behind a stuggling friend. That makes be somebody.

want to see a pay stub? or a checking statement? a clear credit card bill? would that make me somebody?


Who the **** are you? sit down.

Originally posted by WhoBetter?
Treyz28, let me say this, anyone who has 9,000+ freaking posts cannot have a freaking life, either you've been on this board since you were born or you spend 4 hours a day replying, or your hacker and you get your perverted thrills by alteing your info.

Also tell us how many credit cards you've maxed out or i'll just say i don't care how muh money your parents gave you, your still just an average joker, with an average job and your only ambitions are to spoiler yourself with a nice car and never really accompish anything and die just another nameless nobody.

Also I consider that 75% of the people on here are completly full of crap which you obviously are.

All you have done is prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that you are the biggest jackass walking the earth, and all these clowns that agree with you do so because they're just like you, average people who have given up their dreams for a stupid hobby, child's play.

You ain't nothing but a damn fool,





If you dont like anything Trey has to say, you can always get off the board, all this does to you is make you look 10 times worse than you "attempt" to make Trey look. Get a life, 75% of the people on this board try to help others out, and there is 25% of you assclowns that do nothing but argue with others, and start wars on here....:rolleyes:

Originally posted by ChrisLS1Bird
Where's a moderator when you need moderation?

I guess it's a free-for-all today... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ChrisLS1Bird
Where's a moderator when you need moderation?

Instead of posting about it, do something about it.

That is why there is a "Report this post to a moderator" link IN EACH AND EVER POST ON THIS BOARD.