Stroker possibilities with a 400 block?

I had originally planned to just build a 406 with 6" rods. But the block I have, doesnt have a crank. I found eagle cast steel cranks for $250-350. But then I started thinking about it. If I have to buy a new crank anyway, what kinda extra cubes may I be able to get outta this.

What options are there out there to do this. This engine wouldnt see very many road miles, its just a toy. The most it would see is maybe driving to the track and makin a few runs. Can you grind the journals of a big block crank down? Or are the cranks not even close to the same? Also what kinda clearancing would I be lookin at? I was panning on getting a bunch of machine work done anyway so whats a little more

I would really rather keep the price about the same, I dont mind payin a little extra but I dont wanna get into spending $600.

dude, you can get a CAT 4340 4.00" crank for a 434 sbc from www.dynoflo.com for about $450 and it'll take everything you can throw at it up to 10000 rpm and 1000hp. Thats what i would do, but then you've REALLY got to think about suspension and how you're going to get all that ******* torque to the ground

CAT or SCAT? 10,000 RPM and 1,000 HP? I am not aware of when that happened, but thier stuff that I've seen is good for 7,000 RPM and relatively safe with 600 HP. I believe at least two people here have broken them.

Sorry, but $600 for a crank in my eyes is cheap if it will hold your power. If your talking over a grand, then I can see the reasoning. I'd rather build it once, not two or three times.

Originally posted by menlatin
dude, you can get a CAT 4340 4.00" crank for a 434 sbc from www.dynoflo.com for about $450 and it'll take everything you can throw at it up to 10000 rpm and 1000hp. Thats what i would do, but then you've REALLY got to think about suspension and how you're going to get all that ******* torque to the ground

Wow that doesnt sound bad at all. I wonder how serious of a clearancing job I would have to do though, and if I can use 6.0" rods easily with it?

And about getting the power to the ground. Ive already bought some KYB GR-2s for the rear, and Summit sells a rear suspension kit made by Hotchkis I believe that I was gonna buy. And some SFCs and adjustable drag ratio struts for the front. That would at least get more to the ground than the stock suspension.


Edit: In response to Dr.Mudge

And if all that even if the cat crank will be safe around 600 hp thats about where I was looking to be right now so thats fine. I would like to be able to eat all the little DSM ****** that seem to infest this area. And maybe be able to tug the frton wheels off the ground a little. Then Ill be happy until Im out of school.

Im not workin on a severe budget cause Im takin my time with this, but I know I dont have the $ right now to be building for 10,000 RPM and 1,000 hp anyway. I dont think Ill be breaking a crank anytime soon :D

Originally posted by menlatin
******* torque

Alright meow, lets keep this thread as straight as possible.:thumb:

Hey,

I don't advertise in the advanced forum, but if you want to get a rotating assembly for that engine we can fit you in on the stroker GP.

A Scat 4340 4.00" 400 Journal Crank
Scat H-Beam or Howards I Beam (my choice)
and a Diamond or Ross piston.
Rings, Rod Bearings etc....

That should take about anything you can throw at it.

Your going to have to do all of that if you are going to build it up.

What kind of heads are you going to run, cause a 434 SBC wants some decent head. I would think something like a Motown 220cc head would be pretty good for that, it would like more but that's a good low priced head. The AFR 227's or a Ported Brodix -10 or -11 or even a T1 would work nice.

Bret

Originally posted by SStrokerAce
Hey,

I don't advertise in the advanced forum, but if you want to get a rotating assembly for that engine we can fit you in on the stroker GP.

A Scat 4340 4.00" 400 Journal Crank
Scat H-Beam or Howards I Beam (my choice)
and a Diamond or Ross piston.
Rings, Rod Bearings etc....

That should take about anything you can throw at it.

Your going to have to do all of that if you are going to build it up.

What kind of heads are you going to run, cause a 434 SBC wants some decent head. I would think something like a Motown 220cc head would be pretty good for that, it would like more but that's a good low priced head. The AFR 227's or a Ported Brodix -10 or -11 or even a T1 would work nice.

Bret

What kinda price am I looking at for your whole assembly? And can I get a link to it or a phone number or something to the company? Doesnt sound like a bad idea.

I had planned on buying a 4340 6.0 inch rod kit from Doug Herbert that came with clevite 77 bearrings gasket kit, the bushed rods, and I was gonna ask for Speed Pro forged pistons for around $550 total I think, then I was gonna buy a crank separate.

I was planning on getting the rotating assemby bought and the block all machined and all before I got heads. Ill check into the motown's. I was looking at a set of trick flows becase they seem to be decent heads for right around $1000. Then get them shaved down so I can run around 12:1 compression and ported out. I was thinking maybe the motor would just get put together with a set of severly ported camel-humps or something for a couple months until I could recover from buying the rotating assembly and machine work then buy a set of heads.

Originally posted by GreenbeanZ28
Alright meow, lets keep this thread as straight as possible.:thumb:

I agree. Advanced Tech is generally free of this kind of stuff. Posters..... be aware.

Fred

Originally posted by DarthIROC
Ill check into the motown's. I was looking at a set of trick flows becase they seem to be decent heads for right around $1000. Then get them shaved down so I can run around 12:1 compression and ported out. I was thinking maybe the motor would just get put together with a set of severly ported camel-humps or something for a couple months until I could recover from buying the rotating assembly and machine work then buy a set of heads.

I PM'ed you on the Stroker

With a 434 cube SBC you need big heads. So you might as well look at the 220cc heads. The Motown's are about the cheapest big head out there and I've seen them flow 280 with a mild porting. They come with a 64cc chamber so with gaskets and valve reliefs you'll get about 12:1

The Pro Top Line Heads are not bad either. They area bout the same price and are 220cc or 235cc.

Any stock head even ported well like camel humps is not going to be even close to enough. The big aftermarket heads will get you alot closer.

Bret

Originally posted by SStrokerAce
I PM'ed you on the Stroker

With a 434 cube SBC you need big heads. So you might as well look at the 220cc heads. The Motown's are about the cheapest big head out there and I've seen them flow 280 with a mild porting. They come with a 64cc chamber so with gaskets and valve reliefs you'll get about 12:1

The Pro Top Line Heads are not bad either. They area bout the same price and are 220cc or 235cc.

Any stock head even ported well like camel humps is not going to be even close to enough. The big aftermarket heads will get you alot closer.

Bret

Yah I checked out those MoTowns, I like those thats probably what I will go with.

i've been looking at making a 434 just lately. some of the heads i've found that are cheap and flow fairly well (for the cost) are the dart 230cc's theres iron eagles and the pro ones which are aluminum the low lift flow isnt great but the high lift is pretty good. ~300cfm @ .600" i've been considering the iron. and after looking at the flow charts it looks to me like its best to stay with the smaller intake valves because the flow doesnt increase that much but the valve wieght does quite a bit (relatively speaking).

now for a question (this probably sounds silly) but using a production block is there any special messures that need to be taken to accomidate a 4" stroke? small base circle cam? i'm sure 5.7" rods are probably a must with a stock deck hieght. but what about nitrous use... i'm hoping to cram about 200hp worth of dope down its throat since it'll be forged anyway do they make nitrous pistons for an application like this with a stock deck height or do i need to look into aftermarket blocks?

Originally posted by WS6T3RROR


now for a question (this probably sounds silly) but using a production block is there any special messures that need to be taken to accomidate a 4" stroke? small base circle cam? i'm sure 5.7" rods are probably a must with a stock deck hieght. but what about nitrous use... i'm hoping to cram about 200hp worth of dope down its throat since it'll be forged anyway do they make nitrous pistons for an application like this with a stock deck height or do i need to look into aftermarket blocks?

From what Ive read with a production 400 block you need to use a small base cirlce cam anyway. I was kinda wondering how safe it would be to shoot a 150 200 shot of nitrous anyway. Mines two bolt main but Im gonna buy the Milodon caps and have it drilled for 4 bolts.

Make sure the thing doesn't get to overbored when you are looking at alot of n2o.

You can easily put a 6." rod in a 427-434 cube 400 based SBC.

Dart's heads are o.k., the CNC machined ones leave alot to be desired for CNC stuff.

Bret

One thing to add, get a Motown or Bowtie block while you're at it because by the time you spend the money to add splayed caps and all the machine work you will only be a few hundred shy of the price of one of these much stronger blocks. Otherwise you will soon be rebuilding especially the guy who wants to add a 200 shot.

I am running a 72 GM 400 block, a 4-bolt. Has an Eagle forged rotating assy, JE pistons. It is a 4 inch stroke, with 6 inch h-beam rods. The wrist pin ends up quite high in the piston, but I havent had any problems.
The thing is 434 CI, and I have domed pistons to get to 12.5:1 CR, and am running out of the box AFR 220`s

Running N/A with a single outta the box 950 Holley, on a Victor jr. I have run a best of 10.57 @ 128 mph in my 88 Formula.
Really havent done any tuning other than tire pressure and timing, am thinking I can coax it closer to the low tens. It is a strong engine, I like it real well.

Go for it :)

i think i've decided against this route. nobody has yet addressed piston velocity and the high rev reliability of a 434 yet. maybe thats something else to consider here.

Piston velocity... reliability?

What exactly are you planning to do with this 434? The whole point in going that route is to make the big hp/torque numbers without too many revs. 600 rwhp with a 434 is a piece of cake, and it'll never need to see anything over 6500 rpm to get there.

Worry about the valvetrain... that's where stuff breaks.

-Mindgame

Originally posted by Mr. Z28 73/97
One thing to add, get a Motown or Bowtie block while you're at it because by the time you spend the money to add splayed caps and all the machine work you will only be a few hundred shy of the price of one of these much stronger blocks. Otherwise you will soon be rebuilding especially the guy who wants to add a 200 shot.

That's the best thing I've heard on this thread yet!

Originally posted by SSkindog
I am running a 72 GM 400 block, a 4-bolt. Has an Eagle forged rotating assy, JE pistons. It is a 4 inch stroke, with 6 inch h-beam rods. The wrist pin ends up quite high in the piston, but I havent had any problems.
The thing is 434 CI, and I have domed pistons to get to 12.5:1 CR, and am running out of the box AFR 220`s

Running N/A with a single outta the box 950 Holley, on a Victor jr. I have run a best of 10.57 @ 128 mph in my 88 Formula.
Really havent done any tuning other than tire pressure and timing, am thinking I can coax it closer to the low tens. It is a strong engine, I like it real well.

Go for it :)

Wow, thats really impressive. And Motivating :bow: . Im really starting to get exccited about this now. What kind of clearancing did you have to have done? And about how much did the machine work cost you. Not counting any machining done to the heads. Just block and rotating assembly.

About the Aftermarket block Im not concerned about it. If I took the time to save for the block it would just take longer for me to get the rotating assembly and heads bought. Plus like I said the motor wont see many miles and if this guy says he can run 10.5 in a natrually aspirated 3rd gen I can hold off on the No2. If it breaks it breaks. Im only 19 there will be many more motors to come :cool: As for right now if it only last a year of putting out big numbers and good times for me so I can have fun for a while Ill be happy.

Originally posted by DarthIROC
Wow, thats really impressive. And Motivating :bow: . Im really starting to get exccited about this now. What kind of clearancing did you have to have done? And about how much did the machine work cost you. Not counting any machining done to the heads. Just block and rotating assembly.

About the Aftermarket block Im not concerned about it. If I took the time to save for the block it would just take longer for me to get the rotating assembly and heads bought. Plus like I said the motor wont see many miles and if this guy says he can run 10.5 in a natrually aspirated 3rd gen I can hold off on the No2. If it breaks it breaks. Im only 19 there will be many more motors to come :cool: As for right now if it only last a year of putting out big numbers and good times for me so I can have fun for a while Ill be happy.
Used a small base circle cam, but had a .630 lift cam, and had to clearance 4 of the rods. Took about 4 grams off each rod. The machinist had never had any cam clearance problems on anything under a .600 lift cam. Didnt have to do any clearancing on the block. It was all the std. machine work; bore & hone cylinders, align hone the main bearings, etc. Nothing special. This thing revs strong to 7500 rpm. have a 5k stall convertor. I have my rev limiter set at 8k. The rotating assy was $1700.00. The used block cost $300.00. The machine work and forged steel main brg caps added about another $1000.00

Originally posted by DarthIROC


About the Aftermarket block Im not concerned about it. If I took the time to save for the block it would just take longer for me to get the rotating assembly and heads bought. If it breaks it breaks.

Your logic escapes me.

At least you'll keep the parts guys in business. :)

Originally posted by OldSStroker
Your logic escapes me.

At least you'll keep the parts guys in business. :)

I just look at it as if something does break it by far wont be the first thing Ive ever broken, and Im not ignorant enought to think nothing will ever break again. Plus whos to say even if I spent the $ on the world products block that it would stay together. Last time I rebuilt my 305 I made sure I had forged pistons so it would last me a while. I finnaly got it running well after about two months of havng it back together and craked two pistons.

All Im saying is theres no use dreading what may happen. Just take good care of it, try to do everything right and hope for the best.

Away from philosophy and back to the project at hand...

What about the oil pan, Ive heard that with strokers the pan often has to be clearanced. I take it your using an aftermarket deep sump pan on that monster of a motor, if a buy a milodon one of something is it likely to be clearanced out of the box?

The 400 block is already clearanced a little bit from the factory, at the pan rails. And that was sufficient to clear the Eagle 4" crank. I used an aftermarket pan, but I think a stock pan would haved cleared o.k.

Originally posted by SSkindog
The 400 block is already clearanced a little bit from the factory, at the pan rails. And that was sufficient to clear the Eagle 4" crank. I used an aftermarket pan, but I think a stock pan would haved cleared o.k.

I'll probably use an aftermaket pan too with a deep sump and all just to be sure the motor gets enough oil. I was just curious.

Originally posted by SSkindog
The 400 block is already clearanced a little bit from the factory, at the pan rails. And that was sufficient to clear the Eagle 4" crank. I used an aftermarket pan, but I think a stock pan would haved cleared o.k.

I'm having a real hard time with this one....

I have never seen a 4" stroke crank "drop into" a factory 400 block and rotate 360* without hitting a few things.
1) the cam (although this can be fixed in the grind)
2) the pan rails
3) the cylinder bores

How did you manage it?

There was a guy some years back by the name of Jack Conely (Conely Speed Shop) who built stroker 400's at displacements of anywhere from 427 ci to 482. Needless to say, Conely knew his **** cause he was also dominating the Super Modified circuit.
Not that we should get into all that but it just goes to show that you can build a powerful engine on the factory block.

Fast forward to the year 2003.......
With all the better blocks out there and considering the extensive machine work required to make one of these engines work $$..... why in the hell would you want to? Also worth mentioning.... JC was going through a couple of engines a season!

OS is right, you can buy the right block for this build and you spend a bit more for a superior foundation..... or you can go the ultra cheapo route and spend the money on rebuilds.

-Mindgame

Originally posted by Mindgame
I'm having a real hard time with this one....

I have never seen a 4" stroke crank "drop into" a factory 400 block and rotate 360* without hitting a few things.
1) the cam (although this can be fixed in the grind)
2) the pan rails
3) the cylinder bores

How did you manage it?

There was a guy some years back by the name of Jack Conely (Conely Speed Shop) who built stroker 400's at displacements of anywhere from 427 ci to 482. Needless to say, Conely knew his **** cause he was also dominating the Super Modified circuit.
Not that we should get into all that but it just goes to show that you can build a powerful engine on the factory block.

Fast forward to the year 2003.......
With all the better blocks out there and considering the extensive machine work required to make one of these engines work $$..... why in the hell would you want to? Also worth mentioning.... JC was going through a couple of engines a season!

OS is right, you can buy the right block for this build and you spend a bit more for a superior foundation..... or you can go the ultra cheapo route and spend the money on rebuilds.

-Mindgame
We did have cam lobe clearance problems, and had to do some relieving of the con rod shoulders. I cant say why we didnt have block clearance issues with the stock 400 block. I just know that we did not have to do any clearancing of the block for the Eagle 4 inch crank.........
I dont know how long I will stick with the 434, before moving onto a big block in the car, hence, I wasnt interested in spending $2k on an aftermarket SBC block. This 434 will prolly end up slightly de-cammed, and into a street car before too long.

Im going to pick up my 400 block in a few days. I will see and report when I get it back if I have clearance problems. After I buy my crank anyway. I havent quite decided which to go with yet. That set-up SStrokerAce looked awesome, but its hard to get $2200+ together at one time workin part time. I may buy a Rod and piston kit first then buy a crank separate.


If it doesnt hold long. Then Im out a block. Not the end of the world. Lesson learned next time listen to the Advanced tech guys. For now Im gonna see how it works with the stock block. If it holds a year then by then I will have probbaly set my eyes on somehting new by then anyway :D

The big advantage of the aftermarket blocks is thicker cylinder walls, decks and main bulkheads. Why is this important, because you can put all the 4340 forged internals in a stock block you want but as your hp rises then your stock block will start moving around ( cylinder walls, decks and mains) costing at a minimum hp at max a blown engine. And depending on what moves you may be out more than just a block, if the mains move you could lose the block and the crank. I can understand trying to build on a budget as long as you understand the limitations of the parts you are working with. If it were me I'd buy the 4340 crank and rods as well as forged pistons then I'd buy a Motown, Dart or Bowtie block and go from there cause there's nothing worse than spending twice the money more than once.

For a mild build, the passenger block is okay. If you're out for some real power then you're gonna need alot of professional machine work on that block to keep it together and reliable.... drilled deck plugs, adding a coolant hole in the block between the center bore-pair, studs throughout, lots of attention to details. Before all the aftermarket blocks became available, we were using oem stuff in drag race cars. So the tricks to making one work aren't exactly black magic to an experienced builder. The reason no-one uses the oem blocks any more for these types of builds...... because by the time the builder finishes machining the block to handle the stress, you've spent close to what you would have spent on an aftermarket casting and still have an inferior engine block.
A 400, 427 whatever... they can be made to work on the oem castings. I just wouldn't waste my time if the goal was to build anything more than a 500 hp street engine.

Good luck.

-Mindgame

Well if I bought a world products block or something, would it still need to be clearanced or could I drop a 4.00 in crank in there as is?

Clearancing is not that big of a concern. It's the machine work to get everything where it needs to be on a stock block. There is aHP and reliabilty in a stock block and what Mindgame says is true, it's going to cost time and money to get a stock block close and in the end it's going to be less block for the same money.

Just stay NA with that thing and you should be o.k.

Bret

Originally posted by DarthIROC
Well if I bought a world products block or something, would it still need to be clearanced or could I drop a 4.00 in crank in there as is?

I mentioned it in the other thread but the Motown is pretty well clearanced as it is (bores and pan rails). You'll just need a little rub here and there for the 4-inch crank. Cam position is still the same height, so you need to let the cam grinder know what the cam is going in. A little clearancing of the rods will also help.

It's just alot easier with the Motown block. Not to mention the block is alot stronger. Having looked at a few of these since they came out... Mitchell really built this block for the guys who wanna build long stroke strokers (3.875 and up). I'd take it any day over a Bow-tie for this type of build...... and yeah the Iron Eagle and Rocket are even nicer but they will cost you a bit more dinero to put together.

-Mindgame

I havent really decided yet what Im gonna do, but I would really like to make a huge displacent SMC. I may be getting a new job with a friend of mines parent company makin alot more cash than I do now so we'll see what happens.


Im going to a huge swap meet in Iola WI, in a few days. Its advertised as like the 3rd largest meet in the US. Maybe Ill come up with something there. I would imigine a meet that big would offer some cool aftermrket stuff. maybe Ill come across a used Dart block or something.

Originally posted by Mr. Z28 73/97
One thing to add, get a Motown or Bowtie block while you're at it because by the time you spend the money to add splayed caps and all the machine work you will only be a few hundred shy of the price of one of these much stronger blocks. Otherwise you will soon be rebuilding especially the guy who wants to add a 200 shot.




You just talked me down from the ledge.I have a 2-bolt 509 production block,4.155 bore,splayed cap,and was going to try a 200 shot this sat. I`ve used a 150 shot a few times and it`s still in one piece.Do you guys think it will survive this level of nitrous for a while?

FWIW,I`ve had this engine apart and found that the machine shop did`nt use torque plates when honing the block.How? There were carbon spots at every head bolt hole about 3/8" wide and 2" long in the cylinders.Thin walls will MOVE!