Are CAT Brand parts good?

Take it easy on the newbie please. I've done a search and came up with very little info. I looked at the other forums, read the announcement for this forum and this seems like a proper question for this forum so here goes.

I've been searching for my new rotating assembly for a 383. I'm going with all forged parts and planning 450-500HP NA. With a possibility of spraying a few years down the road.

I saw these cranks and rods and they sound like good pieces but I've never heard of CAT brand.

Rods
http://www.dyno-flo.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CR4340HSRSBC&from=46
The only part about the rods I've heard that could be bad is that the Rods and Caps are separately forged. Is this something to be concerned about?

Crank
http://www.dyno-flo.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CC4340RGM&from=25

for pistons I'll prolly go with SRP or maybe JE


What do you guys think?

i am quoting someone else on this but-

Cat is made in china and its all chinese metalogory (sp?)

to be blunt, their stuff sucks...

i woulnd't turn 400hp with a clear conciious

450-500hp NA = at least 6700 rpms = :death:

ohh

delete this and repost in LT1 tech-
you'll get more answers, be in the correct section and get hte answers faster:)

not really LT1 tech.... it's for a carbed vortec headed 383 in a thirdgen. doesn't really fit 3rd gen either though. I just wanna know if these internals are any good.

Thanks for the reply... keep em comong please

Originally posted by treyZ28
i am quoting someone else on this but-

Cat is made in china and its all chinese metalogory (sp?)

to be blunt, their stuff sucks...

i woulnd't turn 400hp with a clear conciious

450-500hp NA = at least 6700 rpms = :death:

ohh

delete this and repost in LT1 tech-
you'll get more answers, be in the correct section and get hte answers faster:)

I TOTALLY DISAGREE. Do you have any personal use with this stuff? Or are you going off of what people tell you?

i'm not trying to be mean but you are just wrong.

CAT, Scat, Eagle, Summit, etc, etc all their H-beam rods are made OVERSEAS...all of them.

The only ones that i know that are made in the USA are the Carillo Rods and you better break out the wallet to get those.

I have been personally involved with a quite a few motors that have the Eagle/CAT/Scat stuff in them and they will take a TON of abuse, whether it be nitrous, n/a (high rpm), or boost

The downside is the weight of the rods. As long as you have a good quality rod bolt in them i wouldn't worry about them.

Eagle was actually the rod of choice in the super street outlaw ranks of NMRA before they started going with aluminum rods.

yea, i've got an mostly CAT motor. Crank, rods, flexplate, balancer, studgirdle, timing gears. I'm yet to try it out on nitrous, but its handling my ~460 n/a hp motor right now. And we've also got a 4340 CAT crank in our turbo 388 stroker motor, and that is going to run 900 hp. Maybe they had a bad experience with a some cast steel junk, but cast steel by anyone isn't going to be great simply for the fact of what it is. And a 4340 CAT crank is only like $50-70 less than an Eagle, so i mean, $50 isn't going to deminish quality in half. So bah.

Trey,

Don't whip out your **** just to get it stepped on.

First,

Eagle, Scat, CAT are all made in China. You ever look at a Scat cast crank? Chinese wrighting all over it. The Scat 4340 non lightened or knive edged crank is made in China too. You should be glad China is socialist, it brings us cheap stroker setups. They are ignorant of capitalisim and never bring these things to us at our market price, they basically sell stuff at about their cost, which is ungodly low.

Second,

CAT BTW owns a factory in China. They have a foundry, CNC machines, everything you need. Basically they have extremely cheap labor costs and import the products fully machined. I don't have a problem with them when they check things at the level that they do. They magnaflux, X-Ray every part. There are alot of US made pieces that are high end stuff that don't even do that.

Thrid,

True they don't start off as top end race parts, but they do have some very good stuff for the money. Their billet rods are a good deal, their Forged cranks are also pretty high quality. It's just like asking most americans what cars are the highest quality cars as far as longevity goes. Most say Honda, which eats at me every time I hear it, but they did make us produce higher quality stuff. It's funny how we have a full series of american "low tech" V8's racing every weekend without much failure. Most of the time the Honda, Mugen and Toyota power plants in F1 never even finish a race.

Fourth,

I have no problem using their parts and putting my name on the line with them. My 2003 Engine Masters engine will be using a Cat Forged crank. True it's going to be lightened, reground and polished along with some teflon coating, but it will start off as a CAT part. It's much more economical to do that then to have a custom Scat Billet made at more than twice the price.

Fifth,

I would like to see more low cost USA made stuff, but why? We can never compete with their pricing. The whole reason we go to college get educations is so we don't end up working in a crank foundry. Have you ever been in a foundry? It's on par with working in a coal mine, not a very healthy environment. I don't mind a country with a billion people in it suppling us with cheap qualty pieces. On top of that our public health care system never has to pay for their health problems associated with the bad working conditions. Cheap industrial labor should be done in other industrial countries. One day they will be on our par and another country will take their place in the global economy. It's basically the main premise that Adam Smith came up with centuries ago. One good thing about a liberal arts education, is that you keep pretty open minded on things once you learn from all the "B.S." classes. So yeah, I'm basically saying you are wrong on a engineering point and a economic point.

Procharged is right. They put up with alot and all the top end US made stuff is extremely more expensive. Carrillo, Oliver and Crower are all made in the US and I don't see most guys running those in their motor. Arrow is made in england and they are just as much as any US made piece.

Probably the best example of quality high end parts and using the world economy to bring them to us is to compare a Scat Lightweight crank vs a Callies Magnum Plus. Both are high end forged cranks. The Scat is cast and machined to the standard 4340 level and then shipped to the US. It is then profiled and lightened, sometimes reground to get the right rod journal size over here. That crank lists for about $1195 and can be had for around $1000 or so. The Callies is also a great piece, but it's all american construction is much more costly. They list in the $2000 range and can be had for about $1700. Basically you pay $700 more for a 100% made in the USA product. $700? Right there is a high quality set of light forged rods, or your set of high end pistons. I can't justifiy that to a customer. That extra money should be spent of heads. I'm not anti american, but we pay the engineers the money to design these pieces and the real craftsmen to do the high end work on them, in turn giving the americans the higher paying jobs and improving our economy and standard of living.

Sorry I get in a little rant about this, but every red blooded american gear head shoud be happy that we get these low cost parts for our toys.

Bret

LIKE I SAIDi am quoting someone else on this but- :)

So who are you quoting Trey? I am pretty sure i remember the thread here that you are thinking of with that statement...

Originally posted by kmook
So who are you quoting Trey? I am pretty sure i remember the thread here that you are thinking of with that statement...

if i remembered i would have said "xxxxx said KEN MOOK - ID HIT IT!" (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=132082&goto=newpost):p :p :p :p

hodge, Your original post/question actual should be in a normal tech forum, but since it has evolved into a indepth discussion about mfr of parts i'll leave it.

I think its time for an updated guidelines for this forum, off to edit i go...

Originally posted by 89ProchargedROC

The downside is the weight of the rods. As long as you have a good quality rod bolt in them i wouldn't worry about them.



The rods come with ARP 8740 12 point cap screw bolts. Are these good rod bolts or should I get different ones put in after I recieve the rods?

thanks everyone for the input. :bow: Sounds like they are worth getting unless someone can tell me why I shouldn't. Now I just have to decide wether to use 6.0 or 5.7 rods for the stroker but I'll do a search on that later when I have more tme cause I'm sure that's it's been covered.

Hodge

wow. you really did your research. But I believe the metalurgy guys will have somthing to be said about the differences in strength between US and chineese steel. Especally since I've read that a fairly large portion of chinese steel is re-smelted. But I agree, the cost is right, and I run a eagle crank / rods. I looked into Cat a littlebit but my machineshop guy said he had had too many failures with them so I went with eagle. But he could have had other motives in saying that....

Originally posted by Dave Feerst
wow. you really did your research. But I believe the metalurgy guys will have somthing to be said about the differences in strength between US and chineese steel. Especally since I've read that a fairly large portion of chinese steel is re-smelted. But I agree, the cost is right, and I run a eagle crank / rods. I looked into Cat a littlebit but my machineshop guy said he had had too many failures with them so I went with eagle. But he could have had other motives in saying that....

lol....wanna hear something funny?

The Owner (CEO) of CAT and the owner (CEO) of Eagle used to BOTH BE PARTNERS @ EAGLE...hehehe.

Know why they split?

Cuz they knew they could both make a boatload of money on their own selling the same damn product.

The main reason why the CAT stuff is a little cheaper than the Eagle stuff right now is they are not as popular and are not as widely known. Think back to your marketing/mgt days and the product life cycle.

-----8740 bolts are good bolts, but not in huge horsepower applications, at least not for more than a season or two. You shouldn't need to upgrade bolts but i remember when people really started using the china rods that they didn't come with very good bolts at all and they were snapping like crazy. So it's kinda an immediate response i have but it isn't always warranted sorry.

Also....the CAT rods might not come with ARP bolts, they might come with, damn it i forgot the name of it, but it might say something different on the rod bolt. Dont worry, they are good bolts. The manufacturer of the "other" bolts actually originally have been making things for the aerospace industry and just started crossing over as it has been explained to me. Maybe the name will jump into my name later

Bret, take a look at this thread:
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23670
This is the one i thought of when i read your post. Id be interested in hearing your comment on what is said in that post particularly concerning Taylormade and Joe Racer's (Nick Norris) comments.

Some thoughts:

It's very difficult to determine the source of the raw material in any parts you buy unless the supplier has "heat certification" of the material which he will share. We regularly must provide our customers with "certs" of the exact lot of material we used. To assure that the certs we get are the actual ones for the material, we only buy from vendors we have approved. If steel is certified AQ or "aircraft quality" there is a better chance it's what was ordered, but AQ adds lots of price.

Metal is produced all over the world; it's truly a global economy as far as metal is concerned. Many of the foreign mills are newer technology than the aging domestic mills. More's the pity. Even the 6-1/2 inch round bar (billet) of 4340 your favorite crank maker uses to carve out a $2500+ crank may very well not be USA melted steel. This is especially true for alloy steels like 4340. The same can be said for medical instruments or orthopeadic implants for that matter. If I were making billet cranks, I'd only use vacuum melted AQ steel, because the$40 extra the AQ billet might cost is well worth it. My guess is the only folks going that far are those building cranks for their own use, like Penske South maybe.

The Scat cast Chinese cranks Bret referred to measured fine for size taper, surface finish. True, the $1000 forged lightweights have a slightly better surface finish (5Ra vs. 8Ra), but I'm not convinced 5Ra is better. It's more important that the micropolishing was done in the correct direction.

Name crank/rod suppliers who import either blank forgings or complete parts should have systems in place to assure the material and machining is correct. It's not that difficult to cut one apart and analyze it for metallurgy and heat treatment. If they do not do this, and have customer failures, they will soon be out of the business.

As much as I'd like to use only material or parts produced in the USA, that is not always possible, and it's rarely economical. Ironically, we sometimes buy foreign material, produce the parts and send them to the same or another foreign country.

My $.02

You know, I think 99% of these answers could easily start off with "It depends".:)
I'm not a big fan of using chinese made products. They do make some nice rubber dog**** and stuff like that but for the most part I like to think I can buy american and keep more americans working.... even at a little more expense.
That said, and without turning this into a lecture on global economy........ CAT makes an ok product. It's ok for some things and not for others. The rods are pretty tough and they'll take a good amount of abuse. The cranks can be a little "off" so you should check them carefully for straightness, journal taper and phasing. Every builder around here has had dealings with CAT, Scat and Eagle cranks that weren't exactly precision pieces. But a good one will be good enough for a strong street/drag engine that doesn't need to make a bunch of 5,000+ rpm launches every weekend.

And yeah, the good american stuff is a bit pricey but there are options like Hank the Crank (who according to Hank himself builds his cranks here and buys american materials to do so). His stuff doesn't break the bank either... at least not the "bottom line" forgings. Another maker that doesn't get much mention is Lunati.... and there are alot of builders who won't use anything else but Lunati stuff. Of course there's Winberg, Bryant, LAE and a few others on the top tier but some like Callies and Cola build some more affordable stuff.

Personally I'd skip the CAT crank and go with a Callies, Cola or HTC. The CAT rods are ok though as far as I'm concerned. Just check everything or have everything checked closely.

-Mindgame

I agree.....i dont know too many people who've had a lot with the cranks.

Rods take a beating though

Pretty much all of the aftermarket rods/cranks have been fine for durability. The issue with the CAT parts in our experience has been the sizing and quality control issues.

If you purchase their stuff I would HIGHLY recommend being prepared to regrind the journals and resize the rods. Talk to a couple machinists and I think you'll find most are of the same opinion.

For the $40 or $50 saved you're right back at the original price of a Eagle or Scat piece but a little more frustrated and .010 'new' crank.

$.02

Brian

I don't know beans about CAT, but I do know I prefer to "buy American". I guess I am just not sophisticated to understand the "global economy". FWIW, my rotating assy is Callies/Lunati/JE. All made in the USA, AFAIK.

Rich Krause

I found it interesting that CAT is a contengency sponsor for the 2003 Engine Masters Challenge.:)

Originally posted by ScatStroker
Pretty much all of the aftermarket rods/cranks have been fine for durability. The issue with the CAT parts in our experience has been the sizing and quality control issues.

If you purchase their stuff I would HIGHLY recommend being prepared to regrind the journals and resize the rods. Talk to a couple machinists and I think you'll find most are of the same opinion.

For the $40 or $50 saved you're right back at the original price of a Eagle or Scat piece but a little more frustrated and .010 'new' crank.

$.02

Brian

Could be but my rods were all in spec, all within the .5g the spec sheet said they were (i weighed them) and my machinist didn't have any problems balancing them with the crank/pistons either

My eagle rods were fine but the eagle crank which was supposed to be internally balanced wasnt, thy had to put heavy metal in the front to balance it. But it was only 40$, no biggie.

Ive known people to run over 950hp on n2o at 8000rpm on the 5140 CAT cranks, I use a 5140 CAT crank and H-Beam rods myself, no problems with em, they are good to 800hp/8000rpm - the only concern is the balance, but u should custom balance your rotating assemblies anyway so thats no big deal either. The sizing was fine, they arent the best products out there but since we buy at cost they are cheap parts.

I also use Probe racing pistons, they are as good as SRP's but because they aren't as known, they are slightly cheaper. Perhaps if CAT parts cost as much as Lunati cranks they'd trust em more?

Interesting fact tho - many companies use CAT rods and rebrand em under their own name.

Originally posted by Nitromethane
Perhaps if CAT parts cost as much as Lunati cranks they'd trust em more?

Interesting fact tho - many companies use CAT rods and rebrand em under their own name.

Higher price doesn't always mean higher quality, in car parts or anything else.

Both of your good points needed to be made.

Thanks.

Originally posted by AdioSS
I found it interesting that CAT is a contengency sponsor for the 2003 Engine Masters Challenge.:)

So have I. When you can talk directly to the company owners and hear what they have to say it is very beneficial. That is a big benefit of the contest. When all you need to start with is a good forging and you can double check everything like magnaflux, and X-ray. When you end up offset grinding the parts and your crank guy checks them you can always send a bad part back.

I'll be interested to see the parts and measure them too. BTW I will report back on the whole setup.

Bret

Originally posted by Nitromethane
Interesting fact tho - many companies use CAT rods and rebrand em under their own name.

Nitro, I've noticed that too. They seem to sell for more or the same as CAT parts do.

Originally posted by Dave Feerst
My eagle rods were fine but the eagle crank which was supposed to be internally balanced wasnt, thy had to put heavy metal in the front to balance it. But it was only 40$, no biggie.

FWIW, my Eagle crank balanced out just fine with no mallory at all.

But that seems to be the "issue" with communist parts - consistency.

Aren't almost all the eagle cranks setup for 5.7 rods only? (So if you use a different rod you have to add heavy metal?) - I know mine (forged) didn't require any heavy metal to balance with 5.7" Eagle H-beams.


Chris

I haven't ordered yet. plan to tomorrow but what I've narrowed it down to is an

Eagle Crank 3.750 stroke, internally balance for a 350 flywheel and balancer, made for 6.0" rods.

Cat 6.0" Forged H-beam rods

Probe Industries pistons 10.5 compression with 3.750 stroke and 6.0" rods on 64cc heads

all going in a 4-bolt main 1996 roller truck block topped with Ported Vortec heads, RPM airgap intake and 770 street avenger.

Cam choice is still on the table

Chris,

From my experience, Eagle cranks counterweighted for 6" rods seem to be more plentiful.

FWIW, my crank is counterweighted for 5.7" rods, but balanced just fine with 6" rods.

If I'm not mistaken, going with a shorter rod than your crank is set up for typically requires more mallory, since the piston is heavier. Going the other way around should make it easier to balance.

Originally posted by Jim S. '95 Z28
If I'm not mistaken, going with a shorter rod than your crank is set up for typically requires more mallory, since the piston is heavier. Going the other way around should make it easier to balance.

Not to sound stupid, but I always figured that the difference between, say, a "5.7 crank" and a "6.0 crank" was that the counterweights on the 6.0" crank were actually larger, as there'd be more room for counterweight under the piston and therefore you'd hopefully need to add less heavy metal. With the shorter rod, you'd be limited on how much room was available for the counterweight, and therefore may need to add more Mallory. I'm not sure if this is correct, though.

Eric,

You're explanation makes sense to me. But in speaking with Callies, they advised against running 5.7" rods with one of their "6.0 rod cranks" 1) for clearance issues between the counterweights and piston skirts and 2) for balancing reasons, since the thicker/heavier 5.7" rod piston will require more mallory.

Maybe the counterweights on "5.7 rod cranks" and "6 inch rod cranks" somehow weigh the same:confused: Along those lines, I've never noticed differences on "total weight" of a particular model crank - say a cast SCAT - based on what length rod it's set up for.

That said, at running it this way ("5.7 rod crank" with 6" rods) eliminates the need to cut down the counterweights if the next rebuild calls is a short rod motor.