Turbo + Supercharger in one car

Long ago I had a discussion with a friend who has a GN, and I was told that the best combination is a supercharger and a turbo together in one car?!! I have not seen this combination in any thing, full race or street car.

Any thoughts.

well hmm.. I've heard of it suggested, but never seen it done.

It is, infact, a very strange setup. the only way I could see
this happening is if the supercharger was placed before the
turbocharger, forcing air through the turbo charger to build
boost, while the turbocharger spools..

in the end you gain faster spool times, lower horsepower instead
of with just a turbo or just a supercharger at the same boost.

turbocharger doesn't cost HP, supercharger does, and if both
are building the same ammount of boost, then you have
the effect of one charger plus the hp losses of the second (blower)


the point? I really don't see one... in the end you end up loosing..
and it might even put excessive stress on the turbo or the
blower, neither were designed to have above atmospheric
pressure air forced through there air inlet, right?

You'd have to ask someone who's studied it, but I highly
doubt anyone here has actually done such a thing.

as far as routing all the piping, that would be easy-
just "Y" the TB off and boom.

use them as completely indipendant systems. I'm sure you could get creative wih this...

Advantages? i really dont see one. Not when there is nitrous out there.

Just guessing-

I am going to say that blower will have a very small pully and create boost almost instantly while a bigger turbo will lag a bit in a motor like a GN? The blower will also help decrease turbo lag?
while s/c and turbos both benifit a great deal from intercoolers. the blower wont "intercool" the turbo so i dont see a big gain there.



Personally, id go with a nitrous turbo combo. I havn't seen too many street driven dual power adders so "always on" power isn't a big issue.

Also nitrous is cold Nitrous acts as a great intercooler for turbos and a typical "30 shot" can yeild much more power.

you really need to be a crazy snmabitch to justify the cost, tuning and headaches of dual power adders:alert: :bow: :alert:

I think nitrous + s/c or turbo is the way to go from my readings here... hopefully rich and the insane induction posse will chime in ;)

This was done on some very large aircraft engines in WWII. And no the turbo's feed the blower. Most fo these had crank mounted blowers.

it was done on an old (late 80s)japanese market Nissan Pulsar before. I'll see if i can find some info about it.

Originally posted by Z28SORR
This was done on some very large aircraft engines in WWII. And no the turbo's feed the blower. Most fo these had crank mounted blowers.


he is right, the turbo has to feed the blower.



i have actually seen a pro-street show car (never actually run, just for show) that had a twin turbo setup feeding a blower.

to even get the thing to run properly would require serious pre-planning of your turbo ratios, and pulley setup, not to metion INSANE amounts of tuning.


there really is no purpose, because, if done properly, any single power adder can accomplish your goal, cheaper and easier.


unless you just wanna say "i have a blower AND a turbo"

This is similar to running two turbos in series, with one feeding another. I was reading an article in a recent mag that mentioned Garret? was working on that same concept only built into one (slightly larger than normal) housing. The exponential boost build-up of a turbo would be then further increased exponentially again.

Take 2 small turbos in series for example. With ambient at ~15psi x 2=30psi (ie +15psi) then x2 again from the next turbo to make 60psi then -15 ambient to get a net gain of +45psi in the end. Getting one turbo (or 2 parallel) to do 45psi efficiently takes some REALLY large turbo(s). Now you can imagine what two monster turbos could do (15x3)=(45)x3=(135)-15=120psi!!!! It works something like that, I'm sure someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Check out a military 8x8 Hemmt. It's built by Oshkosh and is powered by a Detroit Deisel, 2-stroke V-8. On top is a roots blower and on top of that is a turbo. Only makes 445hp but about 1450 in torque.:eek:
This is for your truck, right?;)

My buddy showed me some import mag that had a turbo fed supercharger setup on an Integra that made over 400HP on a 1.8 Liter setup I believe. It was sponsored by Meguiars (spelling?) wax company. Its just excessive though, you can get as much boost as you want out of either.

I have seen this done a few times on Diesel Engines.

One that comes to mind is a friends V6 Dietroit out of a 557 APC. they have twin blowers from the factory and he added twin tubro's and an inter cooler. he then put this setup in a 79ish chevy pick-up ;)

I my self am startign to mull over a dry sump TT system with a 100hot for good measure to get boost up fast :D

Later

Thanks for your inputs guys.

cheers

--Hugh

My dad's trucking company's vehicles used to run roots blowers and turbochargers on their diesels. I understand it is fairly common on big rigs.

I think the whole point is to eliminate turbo lag...the roots creates most of its power low end and instantaneously, the turbos have a much higher ultimate power output depending on boost but all that lag is a PITA.

The March Super Turbo: http://www.j-garage.com/nissan/march/2410.htm

110 PS = 64 HP I think??? Seems rather silly for such a low output.

Originally posted by DropZ
The March Super Turbo: http://www.j-garage.com/nissan/march/2410.htm

110 PS = 64 HP I think??? Seems rather silly for such a low output.
Actually, PS is almost equal to HP. There is a very slight difference after figuring out the formula. Approx 108 - 112 HP

there was a small *** road rally car that did both s/c and t/c. It used a clutch pulley on the s/c that kicked it off at around 3500-4500 rpm where the turbo was spooled up enuff. Doesnt sound to bad in the engineering department. Just need to slap a hella clutch on the s/c and use a rpm driven box to electrically turn it on and off. You would really need to know where the turbo kicks in so you werent creating double boost in the middle

Back in the mid-late 80's there was a guy Rick Dobberton who had a 65 Nova pro-street car with a 6-71 and 2 turbos on a 454 big block.

Didn't "Mad Max" have one of those cluch driven blowers on his Holden in the first movie??

Yeah, I remember that but I thought he drove a Mustang? Or the Australian equivalent. That one was not real, though, just movie magic. Saab (I think) is working on a clutched centrifugal supercharger for a production car, or they were at some point in time.

i was thinking about it after I posted it and thought that maybe it would be easier to have the clutch pulley come off another accessory or the crank pulley itself and then go to the s/c.


Im pretty sure that was a Holden in the mad max movie

Originally posted by DropZ
The March Super Turbo: http://www.j-garage.com/nissan/march/2410.htm

110 PS = 64 HP I think??? Seems rather silly for such a low output.

thats the one I was thinking about, no wonder i couldn't find anyting on the pulsar, DOH!

there are s/c & t/c combos where the s/c has a clutch that disengages at higher rpm when t/c spools, but thats just a lot of extra weight, complexity, etc and you could probably get similar results from going either avenue

that idea goes along the same lines as 2 superchargers, one for each bank of cylinders, its been done, but pointless besides having bragging rights

I remember Toyota 4AGE motor tuners running a turbo+supercharger combo. It's an interesting concept and pretty cool to look at, but as an engineer, having extra moving parts only adds to complexity, weight and design headaches for the tuner. Keep it simple Stupid works.

Alex

How about twin blowers, twin turbos and a fogger!http://www.landrocket.com/images/poweradders3.jpg

Originally posted by Brandy
How about twin blowers, twin turbos and a fogger!http://www.landrocket.com/images/poweradders3.jpg


i saw pics of that in a mag.......but im guessing it was mostly for show.


like i said, i saw a full show chevelle with twin turbos into a blower.............but they dont run great.

too hard to tune right.

If im not mistaken I saw a MR2 turbo 91 with such a setup.. and it produced very nice numbers... I think it was on a turbo magazine... I will post exactly where...

There is a 03 benz being built right now at a custom shop with the AMG blower motor in it and it is getting a set of twin turbos put on as well. They are going to blow through the blower so they get some upper rpm grunt they said :O

I personally don't see the point besides the bling bling factor.

Steven

Originally posted by DropZ
Saab (I think) is working on a clutched centrifugal supercharger for a production car, or they were at some point in time.
Mercedes has been doing that for a while.

LINK TO SUPERCHARGER AND TURBO =D (http://www.dobbertinhydrocar.com/Nova%20Engine.htm)