What's your opinion?

After doing some thinking, I've made a dissapoining discovery...or perhaps not.

After investing in some new tires with a long warranty, I think my Eclipse is going to stay in the family awhile and be a daily.

Now, this means no LS1. However, it does mean I can get a LT1 and make it big and bad.

Now, I'm not going to ask a retarded question like how much boost can a stock LT1 handle. This thing will not be stock, not by a long shot. I'll most likely do a buildup on another LT1 while the stock one stays in the bay, so I can move it around (I'll be in an apartment complex). I'll be doing a buildup the right way, most likely a 383.

Now, I want to go F/I. I don't know what setup is better, so this is why I am here. I want something that can handle the driving duties during the week if it comes to it (Mitsu in the shop, want to drive it to the beach, etc), but I want power on demand, and something I won't have to rebuild every 30k. I'll probably do a small shot for a cooling effect, nothing horrendous.

So, your ideas are more than welcome. Please...enlighten me.

I have always been a big fan of turbo setups. Granted they are expensive, but when setup right they are amazing. By right I mean a solid motor built to handle boost and most importantly a good boost controller. My buddy kenny had a GN that he built a solid motor for and used a stand alone FMU and a good boost controler. He said at 6 lbs of boost(turned down all the way) it drove around like a honda accord and then he could hit the track, turn up the little boost knob(28 lbs of boost) at click of mid 10 second runs. Its horsepower on demand. Superchargers are good but they run boost constantly and strees your engine when you really don't want it to. I wish I could find aturbo setup for the TPI vettes but none are available so it looks like I'm stuck with a blower setup. But plenty are available for the LT1 F-bodies.

Originally posted by stubbs
I have always been a big fan of turbo setups. Granted they are expensive, but when setup right they are amazing. By right I mean a solid motor built to handle boost and most importantly a good boost controller. My buddy kenny had a GN that he built a solid motor for and used a stand alone FMU and a good boost controler. He said at 6 lbs of boost(turned down all the way) it drove around like a honda accord and then he could hit the track, turn up the little boost knob(28 lbs of boost) at click of mid 10 second runs. Its horsepower on demand. Superchargers are good but they run boost constantly and strees your engine when you really don't want it to. I wish I could find aturbo setup for the TPI vettes but none are available so it looks like I'm stuck with a blower setup. But plenty are available for the LT1 F-bodies.

Hmm...that's a good point. Something to consider...

How would a setup (like one from TNT) work with F/I? I am leaning toward a dry setup if I do it at all.

Trust me, the motor will be bulletproof (or as close to). I'm a big fan of do it right the first time.

If you set up a turbo right you won't need nitrous. You just hve to do your research well. Find out how much air a particular turbo flows. Set up the car with the right turbos and you won'tbelieve what they are capable of. I hd a 92 Stang with a 393 motor in it that I was going to put a TT setup on. I was working with the guys at TDC and they estimated that when completed the car would run at 27 lbs of boost (again maximum boost through the boost controller I was looking at) around 1250-1275 HP and at 5 lbs (lowest setting) around 460 HP. With 1250 HP you dont need a nitrous setup. Also look into a scramble boost setup. Whay that does is allow the turbos to spool up by opening the waste gate but dump the boost out of the blow off valve when you hold the button down so you can get traction coming off the line. Then after you hook up you release the scramble boost buton, the BOV snaps shut and your instantly at max boost because the turbos are already spooled, At high 20 lbs of boost it will be like a 400 hp fogger setup kicking in.

Here is a link to just 1 setup I found last week
http://www.chargedair.com/xc/customer/product.php?productid=32&cat=11&page=1&PHPSESSID=29bc39ac56c1d647814833fedc5b1bfd

I actually looked into having a custom setup done. I also own a CRX and have a a very good working knowledge of EVERYTHING you need to setup a turbo on a nonturbo vehicle from the import crowd that does that a lot. I contacted several places including turbonetics and turbo people. The estimated(and you know how estimates go, you aways forget something) cost because of space confinement under the C4 hood and one off construction was around 28,000 dollars. No Fing way am I spending 28 grand, and then have the nightmare of getting a FMU unit custom programmed and debugged. At the rates charged for those things the final price would be over 40 thosand dollars, I don't think thats realistic for my salary.

355 S-trim with water/alcohol injection for cooling. Relatively cheap and bulletproof up to 525 rwhp on 93 octane. Close to stock manners under part throttle, plenty of power in boost (read: hazing tires at the top of 4th), no fiddling with BTMs or race gas. Most who have been there done that will agree that ~500 rwhp is a good compromise between reliability (don't forget the drivetrain) and power in an LT-1 car. You could spend twice as much and make 600 but the breakage and uselessness of the car on the street jumps exponentially.

I've yet to see a turbo setup on an LT1 that worked well. I fully recognize the potential advantages of a turbo setup and I'm not saying that no one has done it right. Just that I haven't seen it. Because there is no adequate "kit", the cost, complexity, and time needed to do a turbo LT1 right goes up enormously. Even if you have the tools and ability to do all the custom stuff needed for a one-off installation, it will be very time consuming. Most of us, even those who do most of our own work, don't really have the tools and abilites needed for a project of this magnitude.

You don't indicate anything about your budget or about your abilities as a mechanic. Both are crucial variables. When you mention concern about having to rebuild every 30,000 miles, I start to wonder if a hi-po LT1 is for you. Once you get into the realm of forced induction, assuming you use the power frequently, you have to expect at least a "freshening up" type of rebuild every so often. Now, you could concieve of a "bullet proof" forced induction setup. The problem with it is that it would have an unfavorable hp/price ratio. Basically, top quality parts with low boost. That's not what most folks who build up a Camaro want.
In any case, while I agree with what "1994 RX7" said about each subsequent incremental increase in hp costing more, the cost difference between 525 and a 600 centrifugal setup is not double.

There is also the issue of supporting components. As the hp goes up, fuel systems become much more complex and costly, not to mention the rest of the drivetrain: driveshaft, rear end, axles, transission and clutch. You can spend a lot of money here. This year, I decided to move into the 800rwhp+ range. The step up from 700rwhp+ was substantial. The drivetrain and fuel system changes were as expensive as the new blower, head work, and valvetrain parts needed to make the hp in the first place. And I already had the 12-bolt.

So, answering "what's better?" without knowing a lot more about your goals, preferences, budget, and abilities is difficult. If you post how much you are prepared to spend, how you plan to use the car, if you want a manual or automatic, what fuel you have available, if you need to pass emissions, and what of the work you can do yourself, I will try to help with something more specific.

Rich Krause

Well, I guess I should have mentioned a little more about my goals.

This thing needs to run off of pump gas. Where I will be living, the track is at least 30mi away, so it's NOT EVER going to be a trailer queen. As far as MPG, it's not going to be a daily, so gas mileage isn't that important, but in double digits around town is my goal. I'd like a car that my wife wouldn't be afraid to ride in to Raliegh (a 80 mile trip one-way) to go shopping at stores we won't have in Greenville.

Stealth is also something I want. I want people to see my car and not see a Pro Stock looking vehicle (ie, I won't be running outrageous things on the vehicle like a huge cowl or cut-out rear wheelhouses). I know I'll have to go a cage at some point, but I will design it so it's almost invisible to the outside.

This car will have T-tops, and possibly a LS1 front end (but that shouldn't effect much else about the characteristics). T-tops are mandatory. I think I'll have to much power to run a targa, so I probably won't mess with that.

Where we are moving they do not have emissions....yet. So everything will have to run through stock (appearing at least) emissions hardware. The interior isn't going to be cobbled, save for possibly the rear seat.

Suspension = I want to keep the ride on this side of a jet landing. I don't want myself or the wife to get kidney pains going to the beach.

I realize what I have described isn't going to do any one thing great. However, I would like to go a lot of things well. I'm going to have a nice stereo (no huge amounts of subs or amps), it's going to look really good, and it's going to use the loud pedal very well. I'm not looking for any specific numbers. I would like it to handle itself to any challengers who it might face on the street (at the track) outside of an exotic, f/I LS1 or the like.

If I could be reliable in the high 11s, low 12s I'd be ecstatic.

Ability? I can pretty much do anything if I study up on it enough, and had the time and resources to do it. Budget? Not bargain basement, but I don't want to sacrifice a life for it.

Originally posted by It's Cochese!
I would like it to handle itself to any challengers who it might face on the street (at the track) outside of an exotic, f/I LS1 or the like.

If I could be reliable in the high 11s, low 12s I'd be ecstatic.



Hmmm... high 11s is a little weak to handle any challengers on the street nowadays. You've got Z-06s, 2JZ Supras, and 03 Cobras (and other stuff) hitting better times with a few bolt ons.

But, if you'll be happy with high 11 second performance, then you don't need an F/I or a stroker or both. Just put on a good set of heads, a nice cam, the rest of the bolt-ons and have fun! You could net ~400rwhp on the stock bottom end very reliably like this.

Solid roller, spray the **** out of it.

Originally posted by 1994 RX7
Hmmm... high 11s is a little weak to handle any challengers on the street nowadays. You've got Z-06s, 2JZ Supras, and 03 Cobras (and other stuff) hitting better times with a few bolt ons.

But, if you'll be happy with high 11 second performance, then you don't need an F/I or a stroker or both. Just put on a good set of heads, a nice cam, the rest of the bolt-ons and have fun! You could net ~400rwhp on the stock bottom end very reliably like this.

Well, we have these here, but I didn't see anything big john in Greenville. There might be a couple, but I didn't see them in my driving.

I'd be happy with 10s as well, I'm just not aiming for 8s or 9s.

I don't want to do a 250 shot. If I spray, I don't want it to be big.

And I know I said I wasn't aiming for numbers, but I think if I wasn't putting 450+ to the wheels I would be dissapointed.

From the way back files:

I had emailed Nu-Tek toward the end of the year, trying to figure out what a 383 would run me.

Everything that they quoted me on was 5288 out the door. This was everything minus heads, intake and fuel delivery.
With:
Callies crank, JE blower pistons (28cc dished), 6" forged H-beams, 4-bolt splayed mains, 7" HV oil pickup; HV pump, Canton deep pan, custom LT1 cam- somewhere between 215-220/225-230, 114 LSA, LT4 extreme timing set. All this with hyd roller lifters.

I was probably going to put on the comp AFR LT1 heads and port match the intake off the stocker.

Now, what would be better? Vortech or ATI? I've heard more good things about the ATI (P-1SC?), but I've not necessarily heard bad things about the S-trim.

Now that you have a little more information, you can probably better make suggestions. Opinions on 355 versus 383? (Refresh my memory on the 355)

Feel free to make a # suggestion on the injectors as well.

Hardly any of that stuff is necessary for under mid 500s rwhp. A proven combo is: stock crank and rods with good machining and bolts, TRW dished 30 over pistons (30 over is where the 355 comes from), and a good oil pump. I payed just over $2000 for this setup in 1999 and it is still making 500 rwhp today.

AFR heads at this level are a waste of money, ported stockers will do just as well. A mid sized cam as you have listed is a good choice. IMO, Vortech is the way to go for this setup. Personally I've seen more Vortech cars make the power than procharged ones -but they're newer series seems to be doing better. Add a set of 42 or 55# injectors (no FMU), a big intank fuel pump, and a custom tune along with some big headers and a good cat-back.

You won't be disappointed and you can get out the door for around 8k if you're careful :D

Originally posted by 1994 RX7
Hardly any of that stuff is necessary for under mid 500s rwhp. A proven combo is: stock crank and rods with good machining and bolts, TRW dished 30 over pistons (30 over is where the 355 comes from), and a good oil pump. I payed just over $2000 for this setup in 1999 and it is still making 500 rwhp today.

AFR heads at this level are a waste of money, ported stockers will do just as well. A mid sized cam as you have listed is a good choice. IMO, Vortech is the way to go for this setup. Personally I've seen more Vortech cars make the power than procharged ones -but they're newer series seems to be doing better. Add a set of 42 or 55# injectors (no FMU), a big intank fuel pump, and a custom tune along with some big headers and a good cat-back.

You won't be disappointed and you can get out the door for around 8k if you're careful :D

Hey man, you know I trust you on this stuff. What did you end up paying for the S-trim? Was that $2k cost involve the in-car block or was it a new one? I ask because I most likely will not have a place to put this together myself.

Give me the lowdown on the Z man! It's your boy Cochese! I promise I won't tell! :D

Lemme dig back and find the build sheet and I'll email it to ya.

Originally posted by 1994 RX7
Lemme dig back and find the build sheet and I'll email it to ya.

:metal:

Was that the Centerforce you had on when I worked back at CFA?

I'd rather not have something I need 300lbs of force to get down.:D

Originally posted by It's Cochese!

Now, this means no LS1. However, it does mean I can get a LT1 and make it big and bad.


Even though LT1s are cheap nowadays, you are talking about a substantial amount of money that would far outweigh an LS1.

A (reliable) 500rwhp LT1 is going to cost more than an LS1. Unless you steal it :). You can find 98s in the 12-14k range around here.

I thought I could build a stock headed FI setup with a small budget. With just the blower, fuel sys, bottom end you are looking at ~4500 assuming you bought used parts. These are just the 'basics' 0 start adding headers, shifters, clutches, etc and you will need to sit down. I quickly found out I needed to settle for something else before I made a "How much boost can a stock LT1 take" post :).

Ryan

Originally posted by 96-speed
Even though LT1s are cheap nowadays, you are talking about a substantial amount of money that would far outweigh an LS1.

A (reliable) 500rwhp LT1 is going to cost more than an LS1. Unless you steal it :). You can find 98s in the 12-14k range around here.

I thought I could build a stock headed FI setup with a small budget. With just the blower, fuel sys, bottom end you are looking at ~4500 assuming you bought used parts. These are just the 'basics' 0 start adding headers, shifters, clutches, etc and you will need to sit down. I quickly found out I needed to settle for something else before I made a "How much boost can a stock LT1 take" post :).

Ryan

Well, the only problem with that is the initial cost. My goal of getting a vehicle before I turn 25, that would pretty much rule out a LS1. You see, I'm not selling my Eclipse (it runs too damn well), and I'd be paying cash in full for whatever vehicle I bought. As the money came in, I'd build up.

Everyone and their brother gets LS1s...I want to be different.

And pity the driver of the LS1 who thinks I am stock. :D

8k(details in web page) in my combo and thats a new d-1. It sure in the hell better make 30,000 miles but it has yet to see a pass and gets floored from time to time. I should be at the dyno but rain is hampering me.