Terrible Times, what's wrong?

Made my first run at the track yesterday. The weather was right around 50 degrees, track conditions were pretty good. I thought my car was in great running condition until after last nite. I THINK I HAVE THE SLOWEST CAR IN THE NATION FOR MY MODS

Here is my best Run:

RT - .752
60ft - 2.096
330 - 5.823
1/8th - 8.885
MPH - 80.11
1000 - 11.543
1/4 - 13.776
MPH - 101.29

WHAT GIVES!?!?! I was hoping for high 12s not high F***ing 13s.

I was on street tires, and i was beating other LT1s off the line that had stalls and drag radials and they were reeling ME in with a stock motor. I thought it would be the other way around? I'm so mad I'm thinking of selling the damn car.

Please help me troubleshoot some possible problems, thanx guys.

after having an lt1, i dont think you have enough mods to get 12's, maybe low-mid 13's, but it does sound like something is wrong. try checking your plugs and or wires...

your time is close your trap speed, and your 60ft is ok, i just think your car isnt giving 100%

i would be troubled too...then again i was in your position and got frustrated and just bought an ls1!

Originally posted by Droopy
i would be troubled too...then again i was in your position and got frustrated and just bought an ls1!

:rolleyes:

yea, well let's theoretically say i don't have $20,000+ to solve this problem. :rolleyes: hmmmm

Can i please have some real advice and not the usual "buy an LS1"

You need a 3500 or so torque converter to take full advantage of your hot cam and mods. I have a buddy that has the same mods as you and was running 12.7's@107 with a 3500 converter but he had to take it out becasue he bought a cheap torque converter and it took a $hit on him so he put a stock converter in. His times fell to13.6-13.7@101-102mph. He was a second faster with the 3500 stall converter. You should look into a quality higher stall conveter. BTW does it feel like it runs crappy at all or does it feel fine? Who tuned your car? Do you have cats? What was your raceweight?
Later
Matt

Originally posted by WheelmanZ28
:rolleyes:

yea, well let's theoretically say i don't have $20,000+ to solve this problem. :rolleyes: hmmmm

Can i please have some real advice and not the usual "buy an LS1"

READ IT AGAIN CHIEF, i gave you a place to start looking at. check plugs and wires...how many miles on them??

and i never said to buy a LS1, i just stated i was in your position...meaning my lt1 never put out what i had hoped with all the stuff done to it, so i gave up and bought a ls1.

you shouldnt read into things, shows very poor social skills.

maybe next time i wont try to help.


dave

btw, not all ls1's cost $20k, something you shouldnt assume

A good converter and some sticky tires would help.
There is obviously some more mph left in your car too.
Check all the tune up stuff and then decide on wheter you trust the programming in the car.
I have a friends car that is like yours. It just seems like a pig. Musta been built on a friday.

Originally posted by Nostang 96z
BTW does it feel like it runs crappy at all or does it feel fine? Who tuned your car? Do you have cats? What was your raceweight?


To be honest, i noticed a bigger difference in performance when my catback was installed over the cam, headers and gears. But i did put in new plugs, wires, distributer, and coil when i did all this to ensure my car would run well. My car was tuned by www.bvperformance.com which i'm a little sketchy on the results. I do have one stock cat still on there. I'm not sure on my racewieght either.

Droopy, i know how to read, if u checked the sig u would see i replaced plugs and wires. And don't talk down to me, u don't know me or my "social skills" thanx anyways for the advice.

What are your shift points? Short shifting a Hot cam car will kill your runs.

I have been debating for a long time now on whether i want to invest in a stall. If i buy one, it will be a Vigilante 2800. But don't torque converters only help u off the line? I was also thinking of getting some drag radials, but i have a bad 3.73 gear in my rear end and i'm afraid it my bust on a dead hook. I figure 2.0s are pretty good 60s for my car on dunlop comp 5000s street tires. but my trap speed and time are pathetic, I see STOCK LT1s running those numbers. Could I be running out of fuel at the high RPMs?

Originally posted by AL SS590 M6
What are your shift points? Short shifting a Hot cam car will kill your runs.

My car shifts at about 6200 RPM, I had it shifting around 6500 RPM before, but the power curve of the cam was falling off at that high of an RPM and the car was falling on its face.

First get rid of that stock cat and put a pipe in place of it. Next, make sure you are shifting the car as said above...a hotcam will like to be shifted at ~6400-6500rpm's. You might want to check out www.pcmforless.com for a tune on your car...I hear they are pretty good and know some people with good results from them. You should look into a conveter and some tires and you should easily be in the mid 12's @109-110 in good weather with good traction depending on raceweight.
Matt

wasnt talking down to you...was wondering why you read into things, and why you thought checking plugs and wires wasnt good advice.

your sig told me the plugs and wires you have, but i didnt read in there how old they were, my bad...i guess

i would check tuning...been there and done that too....not a good story either

I'm just so confused and pissed I don't even know where to start. I want to get a laptop and get LT1 edit and scan tools, but if the programming isn't the problem then I can't afford to fix the other possible problems. Where do u all think i should start?

Was the car actually dyno tuned or did BV just do a file for it?
If it was dyno tuned what did it make? Got graphs?
If you're really unsure of the programming, shoot me an e-mail.
Maybe I can make you an offer you can't refuse.

Originally posted by WheelmanZ28
I'm just so confused and pissed I don't even know where to start. I want to get a laptop and get LT1 edit and scan tools, but if the programming isn't the problem then I can't afford to fix the other possible problems. Where do u all think i should start? i am almost convinced that your tune is the issue w/ your car along w/ your shift points which will be fixed in a proper tune.. get in touch w/ brian @pcm for less and he'll hook you up.. maybe you can look for someone in your area who's familiar w/ a program like LT1edit or tunercat and can help you out getting your car to run right.. Tuning a cam car isn't a plug and play issue.. And not every car react's to the same tune the same way.. i'm sure many other's will agree.. Good luck w/ it and keep us informed..

Stock heads, valves and spring? If so I'm pretty certain you are shifting too high. When my car was close to stock like yours, I was shifting around 5800 and I got much better ET's.

Your mph is down. I again think that your valvtrain is the place too look, provided plugs, wires, coil, opti, are functioning, 02's are good, and the car appears to run fine otherwise.

Basically, the performance of your car is right where it should be, if it did not have the hotcam. Thats why I would look at the valvetrain, or as another fellow said, maybe at the PCM tuning. Something is quite wrong.

The way www.bvperformance.com work is that he loads a program file into ur car for a specific cam, then he drives the car around and uses scan tools to make further adjustments based on the results. It's not really a dyno tune, but more of a comprehensive "street" tune. He spent a great deal of time on my car and assured me it was running well. The car felt like it was running pretty strong, but i didn't notice the power gains i had expected from the hot cam kit.

I'm very interested in hearing this offer i can't refuse Dan K :D i need all the help i can get.

Hmmm...so he just guessed as to what your car likes as far as WOT stuff. :rolleyes: Nice.
An offer you can't refuse huh?
Like I said, e-mail me. :)

Originally posted by Dan K
An offer you can't refuse huh?
Like I said, e-mail me. :)

Dan, u got mail :D

Well after a good converter 2800worked fine with my hotcam setup 12.30's@109mph with et streets. All I have is a mailorder tune which you probably need . Check for exhaust leaks and knock retard with a scanner which really hurt performance. Something is definately wrong somewhere. Don't assume anything is working correctly until you check it out yourself or have someone do it for you. good luck.

Drive around w/ a laptop and make some datamaster logs of your car. That will tell you if you're getting knock retard, air intake problems, dtc's, etc. Do that first and go from there. If you need to, make a post on your local area's section of the site and ask someone with a laptop to take a 10 minute ride with you. That's what I did and it worked great.
Good luck...once you get it fixed and you put the stall in you will easily be in the 12's at 107-110 I'm sure.

A while ago I was running almost the exact same times as you with almost the exact same setup. I added a 3500 stall and drag radials and dropped my times to 13.1 at 103, then added a cutout and maf translator tuned for 12.8-13.0 AFR and ran 12.60s at 106, then added some 24 lb svo's and retuned the maft and ran a 12.37 at 108.5. You would probably benefit from these mods similarly I would assume. Also, if your AFR is already 12.8-13.0, a maft won't help.

Hope this helps,
Jon

first rule out problems that could cause performance issues with a stock motor...

you need a convertor...the 3.73's are helping you some, but you need to lug that motor into the powerband quicker..
i use yank but vig is a good product too

try another tune...

get a scanner...autoxray --175 bucks...

good luck i hope you dont give up on the LT!..

i have the money and i still wont buy an LS1...dont bash me guys, i have respect for the motor,, but i prefer my LT1... and i argue my point well with my timeslips...


good luck with the hotcam....

I ran consistant 14.40's on a stock motor 95Z w/2.73's. I switched to a 3200 Vig and ran 13.95 leaving the line soft so it would shift right. You should look into a converter. I guarantee it will wake up your motor.You should also at least get a laptop and some free logging software (Datamaster,Freescan, PCMcomm) to see what's going on with the engiine too.It can be frustrating but keep at it and you;ll be glad you did.
Skip

Thanx for the advice all, i really appreciate the help...

The car is getting new front brakes on monday..
Also:
I'm also having a custom pipe made to replace my cat...
I've decided to drop to a 3.42 rear end gear...
And I'm ordering PCMFORLESS tuning as we speak...

In the next couple of weeks I'm gonna order a Vigilante Torque Converter. I'm debating on stall speeds. Either 2800, 3000, ro 3200. I'm leaning more towards a 3000 or possibly a 2800. Any input on this subject would also be appreciated.

Originally posted by WheelmanZ28
Thanx for the advice all, i really appreciate the help...

The car is getting new front brakes on monday..
Also:
I'm also having a custom pipe made to replace my cat...
I've decided to drop to a 3.42 rear end gear...
And I'm ordering PCMFORLESS tuning as we speak...

In the next couple of weeks I'm gonna order a Vigilante Torque Converter. I'm debating on stall speeds. Either 2800, 3000, ro 3200. I'm leaning more towards a 3000 or possibly a 2800. Any input on this subject would also be appreciated.
If you choose a 2800 you will wish you went with a 3200 but then you might have the highstall no shift problem. but there is a cure for it too. Some have PCM4less change the shift parameters and others don't need it. I went with a TCI trans control unit. A 3.42 might be a good choice too.
Skip

Originally posted by WheelmanZ28
I've decided to drop to a 3.42 rear end gear...

Why? That will just make it worse. At least the 3.73 is keeping you in your powerband more after a shift.

And I'm ordering PCMFORLESS tuning as we speak...

I guess my offer wasn't good enough? ;)
IMHO, the pcmforless tune won't be much different than the BV stuff.

In the next couple of weeks I'm gonna order a Vigilante Torque Converter. I'm debating on stall speeds. Either 2800, 3000, ro 3200. I'm leaning more towards a 3000 or possibly a 2800. Any input on this subject would also be appreciated.

I have a buddy that has a 2800-3000 stall and 3.42's with his hotcam. I think he needs more stall and more gear. Car went 12.8@105 w/ 1.80 60ft.

How many miles and what shape is your auto in? The reason I ask is that I know how it is to mod and then go slower when an auto goes south, and I have not seen it mentioned. It can kill both ET and MPH. It may not be the problem but it is a possibility.

A question no one asked yet, how does it "seem" to run? Does it feel fast as hell, but not getting the number, or does it feel like a stock car. First thing, I wouldn't start adding things like a convertor. All that is going to do is help e.t., and your car's mph stinks too. I would put it on a dyno for sure, and see what is happening. Timing probably is ok, probably not perfect, but I would worry more about a/f ratio. For some reason, most lt1s run rich when stock from what I hear. Not mine; 14.0:1 bone stock! Go figure. Maybe yours is doing the same. Also, do you have the hotcam "kit" or just the cam? If you don't have the valvesprings, like tnthub said, that car is gonna have valve float bad. I would think that 6200 is probably still a bit much for hotcam cars. The only way to tell 100% where to shift, is by putting it onto a dyno. Wait, back to that. Why would you NOT want to put the car on a dyno? I would wager there is one within 4 hours of you. Would you really complain for a 4 hour drive and have your car running mid to low 12s at 108 - 110? Some people like castor oil I guess.

The car does have the Hot Cam kit, as it says in my Sig...;)

The car seems to be running OK, but honestly i felt a bigger difference when my catback was put on over the gears, headers, and cam.

The tranny seems to **** fine, i put the trans cooler on inorder to increase the life of it.

I'm worried about putting my car on the dyno cuz i hear a lot of dyno passes are a strain on the engine. Plus the $400 it costs for a dyno tune, is that really worth it? Will it make that big of a difference? I don't really wanna dyno tune it just yet, knowing that i will be adding more mods to it soon.i dont want to pay $400 each time i need a tune done.

You do not have to dyno tune it, just get a few pulls on the dyno. Most places offer something like 3 pulls for $75

A dyno run is less strain on the engine, unless your car weighs less than 2000 lbs or so. Also, you could be putting your motor in serious jeopardy by racing it if ithere is a problem. I am simly amazed that you would continue to add parts to make it faster when it is obvious that there is something majorly wrong. My car went 13.8 @ 101 on a slipping clutch when it was bone stock. All I have now is LTs and a CAi and I'm pulling LS1s from any gear and to any speed. If I had a hotcam and it slowed back down, I'd want to know why.

Please help me troubleshoot some possible problems, thanx guys

Why ask at all when all you are going to do is throw more parts at it? Why not FIX the problem at hand? The only way to do that is with more info, and for $75 you could get a lot of info. Anywho, I hope that stall gets you 8 mph and about a second or more of e.t.

Originally posted by brain
Why ask at all when all you are going to do is throw more parts at it? Why not FIX the problem at hand? The only way to do that is with more info, and for $75 you could get a lot of info. Anywho, I hope that stall gets you 8 mph and about a second or more of e.t.

UMMMMMM THAT'S KINDA WHY I'M ASKING FOR HELP :rolleyes:

I'm trying to find WHAT I NEED TO BUY to fix the problem. It's not gonna be a free fix obviously. People are recommending me to get the stall, and ur mocking me for considering it?

That's why i asked if a dyno tune is worth it. Or if a stall would help more. Sorry for not having infinite money to spend on trying to fix the problem :rolleyes:

I know everyone's budget is different, but if $75 for a lot of useful info is infinite to you, I have bad news for you; you sure as heck shouldn't have bought an F-body. Also, I'm not mocking you for considering a stall. I would recommend you consider it, and then say, well, most likely I will NOT get 8 mph from a stall and I should look elsewhere for the problem. Look back at Jon's post, he gained 2 mph from the stall, and then got the rest of the power from a MAF convertor and injectors. You might need injectors, and if you get it tuned, you shouldn't need the MAF convertor. I wouldn't even neccessarily recommend a dyno TUNE, but just a PULL. It will tell you if your car is running rich or lean, how much power, if you are getting valve float, if power is dropping off for some reason, etc. Also, you might want to have someone hook up a scan tool and make sure you aren't getting any knock at WOT. Then, you can send the dyno sheet to PCMFORLESS and he should be able to get you pretty much spot on for a/f and shift points. THEN you could do the stall, so the car would go from 13.5 @ 108 to a 12.5 @ 107. Numbers are fictitous of course, and used for an example.

It will also be able to tell you if the tranny is robbing you of power by the numbers, and lot's of useful info.

Originally posted by brain
I will NOT get 8 mph from a stall and I should look elsewhere for the problem. Look back at Jon's post, he gained 2 mph from the stall, and then got the rest of the power from a MAF convertor and injectors.

A little off the subject but...Yes, he only got 2MPH but look at how much ET he dropped with just a converter swap. Your not looking to gain HP with a converter. He said he was running about the same ET as Wheelmanz28 so he dropped about ~.6 in the 1/4. At the track I don't really care about MPH, but when you can drop ~.6 in the 1/4 that is fine with me.

I would see if the tuning makes a difference and throw in a 3500 stall and see what happens. I agree, throwing it on a dyno wouldn't hurt either. Just my .02.

Brian

sorry I agree with Brain, stop throwing money at the car until you figure out whats wrong with it, and I don't mean you just have a parts mismatch, I mean something is majorly screwed up in your car. you have enough mods for mid 12's and your running near stock times. Before you throw a stall at it or change gears, get a scanner, hook it up and get it on a Dyno. The combination of the scanning parameters and the AFR from the dyno will tell you if there is a problem.

If stock cars can run those times with stock gearing and stock stall, theres no way you shouldn't be way faster than that.