How do they get 345& 380HP out of the LS1?

I know stock the SS is up to 325 and 350Ft/tq.
Last week at a car show I saw some pretty impressive SS camaro's, some had 345 hp. I have the SLP forms for the Camaro SS and firehawk at home from when I was looking at cars. the one says the Dual/Dual exhaust or the center exhaust+ the SLP intake (same concept as a wisper lid right) brought it up to 345.

How do they get 380 from the factory then? what elts is required?

Oh, I finly decided on a color to get my next one in too, Sunset Orenge :cool:

~chris

the 380hp rating wasn't from gm.

The 380 was from GMMG i believe. Think of them as a much better version of SLP.

Originally posted by Aklaim
The 380 was from GMMG i believe. Think of them as a much better version of SLP.

they are nothing like SLP

they add exhaust and a lid to get that rating.. its kind of a lame way to go about it

Well is that rating correct with just a lid and exhaust? seems like alot to me.. I've also seen them 380hp GMMG cars, i always wondered what was done to them to make that power. So its not truely 380hp?

its measure at flywheel....so maybe they got somewhere close to that....

Mods you could do yourself, no reason to pay high dollar for a "special" Camaro.

Here you go:

http://65.18.159.167/cgi-bin/spool//ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000384

http://www.gmmginc.net/

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2412444465&indexURL=3&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting

Just a little taste of what Mat and the guys are up to. Yes, they did build all 69. The same lid and chambered exhaust is used on these cars, as they use on the others. Check the video clips on the GMMG site for the sound of the exhaust. Mine sounds just like the smokey burn out clip. I do not test my rev limiter like Matt did. The black Trans Am is heavily modified, so the 427 cars may sound like that clip. You really do get a little more than just a lid and exhaust, if you read the window stickers, but Will is correct, we can and do make 380 flywheel hp all the time ourselves. 380hp with an 18% drivetrain loss is only 311.6 RWHP. Most everyone is doing that. Did I buy one? Not when I can do it myself.
Also, keep in mind that SLP built cars for the masses, GMMG builds special order cars for people that want something different. Robby Gordon has one of the older versions. I do not think a Camaro is worth $110,000, but someone who has money to burn just might.

Will, I will be in the bay area for my son's Graduation from Cal State Sac Memorial weekend, anything going on?

PJ

Originally posted by PJS TOY
...but Will is correct, we can and do make 380 flywheel hp all the time ourselves. 380hp with an 18% drivetrain loss is only 311.6 RWHP...
PJS TOY,
So the 18% number... does that apply to M6 or A4? And is this a reliable constant? If so, it means that I can claim a 400hp motor since I dyno'd at 330rwhp?

SFB767 I got my number here,

http://www.ramseysperformance.com/

They found that all the engines that they installed that had been built and dynoed by people like LPE and ARE lost about 18% at the wheels. When I had my car base lined at 3000 miles after one oil change, it was a disappointing 285RWHP/325RWTQ. They applied the 18% deal and tried to make me feel better about it being the same as they see on almost all stock camaros and C5s. The number comes out to be about 345 hp. There are some factory freaks out there, psychocabbage, for example. That lends alot of credibility to the LS6 block stories. The blocks are the same design now and starting in 2003 it is the only block used. Before that, the LS6 used a stronger casting method and was used for the Z06 motors, left overs went to f-bodies to keep costs down and or to keep production running smoothly. The newer designed LS1 blocks are almost the same as the LS6 blocks but some subtle differences, that are done to death in other threads and other boards, keep them from making the hp of the LS6 blocks. The easiest way to tell the difference is the color, LS1 is lighter color than the LS6 due to the casting process. Sorry the short answer was I got it at Ramsey's. Soon as they have dyno time when I have time off, I want to see better numbers from the mods.

BTW there are alot of theories about what the correct loss factor should be and if it is variable and so on, but, these are the only people that I have dealt with and they had hard numbers to support what they told me.

PJ

I really am not sure if anything is going on, there is a local mailing list:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bamotor/
(you can sign up for digest mode, or simply view through the web)

Local msg board
www.norcal-ls1.com

until somone pulls the engine out to prove it, there is nothing to back that claim. estimated is not actual.

JaysZ, These numbers are for most stock 01 & 02 cars that people bothered to get base lined before starting mods. The pulls are done for a M6 in 4th gear and an A4 in 3rd. Some did dyno higher or lower, but the average was 18% from the rated 345 of the C5. Remember, from 01 these motors are the same from TB to pup cats. They also saw a comparable loss on the 03 Cobras that were there the last time that I went by.

chevy qc, I think that I remember you saying that you were a service tech awhile back. I may have you confused with someone else, but if you are, maybe you can explain this to me. If the approximate 18% loss is not correct, does that mean that Chevy is lying to us about Corvettes having 345 HP from the factory? If they are lying, do they really have more or less. All we need to know is the real hp and after we see what one dyno's in the real world then, we can establish our own loss/gain? factor. If you are not the tech, then maybe he will see this and give us the info and I will not have to go by the engine dyno sheets from Agostino or Linginfelter vs the installed dyno on the same engine.

Just took a look at my post after some sleep(new neighbors seem to have brought city life out here to what was the peaceful country). This stuff is no where as critical as say brain surgery. Does it really matter what the exact conversion factor is? All that was important to me, was making that punk in the new 03 C5 cry the other morning after he reved at at me for about 5 lights. Just couldn't help myself when we were at the last one heading out of town on a deserted 6 lane. he said that he thought I was reving at him when he couldn't here his ganster rap stuff on his stereo over my exhaust. Rookie!

Vettes will have more drivetrain loss than a Camaro with a 7.5" rear, so comparing rear wheel numbers isn't going to tell the whole story of the true power up front.

18% sounds reasonable for an automatic, a stick car should be 13/14% or so.

The numbers that GM reports for HP are numbers off an engine dyno, not a chassis dyno. They are not lying about these numbers for any of their vehicles or they would be opening themselves up for quite a lawsuit.

Brian

i'm not saying gm is lying. the under-rating issue is simply the dyno slide, but 18% may apply to one vehicle and not another. it's different for auto, stick, wheel and tire combo, rear differential, etc. when your talking these power numbers, percentage is important. 3% difference is around 10hp as an example which some people pay alot to pick up 10 hp, so yeah a few percent is a big deal...

Originally posted by Y2kPewterSS
The numbers that GM reports for HP are numbers off an engine dyno, not a chassis dyno. They are not lying about these numbers for any of their vehicles or they would be opening themselves up for quite a lawsuit.

Brian

That would make perfect sense, BUT explain to me how my 305hp motor is pitting down 315 at the wheels?

315rwhp stock from a 305hp version?

I can't say anything for your claim about 315rwHP but I can say... What marketing value is there in underrating your engines? I don't know what the spread on HP output for LS1 engines is. I would imagine the published HP ratings are for the bottom of the spectrum though.

Brian

Bottom line is.. he average HP at the wheels of a 380hp rated car is no different then any other ls1 with a lid and catback..

It seems a little hard to believe that with a simple Lid and Catback you can see 380hp at the crank on an otherwise stock LS1.. If its true, its cool, but just seems odd.. I guess if the cars really make like 350 at the crank than it does seem right..

that may be the bottom line, but a lid and a catback doesn't get you 5hp away from the 01' Z06. the bottom line is people are paying extra for the round about number because the sticker on the hood says so. anyone that was at the berger even can see the wonderfull numbers the gmmg cars put down.

Let's see ... I laid down 330 RWHP (SAE Corrected) at Hypertech two weeks ago with only a lid and a cutout.

Assuming a 15% drivetrain loss in the 6-speed tranny, that works out to 388 HP at the flywheel. So, I'd say it's not too hard to get 380. :D

If you want to take the 13% drivetrain loss, then it works out to 379 HP at the flywheel. I still ain't complaining.

I'd bank on less DTL than that, people with 12 bolts and modest 383s have seen only 13% DTL as compared to an engine dyno, but there is no foolin, the LS1s make the power.

Originally posted by rncotton
Let's see ... I laid down 330 RWHP (SAE Corrected) at Hypertech two weeks ago with only a lid and a cutout.

Assuming a 15% drivetrain loss in the 6-speed tranny, that works out to 388 HP at the flywheel. So, I'd say it's not too hard to get 380. :D

If you want to take the 13% drivetrain loss, then it works out to 379 HP at the flywheel. I still ain't complaining.

wow, very cool!! I can't wait to get my LS1!! Everybody's around here trying to get me to keep my iroc cuz its so clean, but my hearts set on a LS1, and u just made it worse! I want it more now LOL.

Originally posted by Y2kPewterSS
The numbers that GM reports for HP are numbers off an engine dyno, not a chassis dyno. They are not lying about these numbers for any of their vehicles or they would be opening themselves up for quite a lawsuit.

Brian

Factory HP numbers are at the flywheel with *NO* accessories but what is required to run the engine. And although it could be considered false advertising for a manufacturer such as gmmg or slp to make the claims that they do, it'd be REAL hard to prove as the factory claims are notably low.

wrong.. the ls1 is not rated at the flywheel :)

most people dont know that...

its not at the wheels either..

its rated at the tranny tailshaft.. ofcourse thats unoffical and you wont see gm say that

Originally posted by CPFarhood
Factory HP numbers are at the flywheel with *NO* accessories but what is required to run the engine.

That was back in the 60s.

Originally posted by Dr.Mudge
That was back in the 60s.

Last i checked, thats the way they are required to do it even still.

Originally posted by CPFarhood
Last i checked, thats the way they are required to do it even still.
nope

it was the old (gross rating) way until 1972. now everything is rated sae which is with all accessories on and at the back of the trans. most companies won't give a different rating for auto and manual though.

Originally posted by CPFarhood
Last i checked, thats the way they are required to do it even still.

I dont know where your checking but that is way outdated, in the early 70s they switched to SAE testing, which required all accessories as would be manufactured. Previously even the water pump would be removed when dyno testing, that is long gone 30 years past.