Is less and less car design being done here?

or at least, less design work being done here?

for example:

Focus - Based on European Design
Escape - Based on Mazda Design
Ford's Taurus replacement - to be based on Mazda 6.
GTO/GM RWD - Based on Australian Design
Crossfire - Based on German Design
Neon - to be based on Mitsubishi design
Cavalier replacement - based on European design
Aveo - Imported Korean car
300/"intrepid" - based on MB mechanicals
Saturn - the bigger sedan is based on a European design
etc...

there is getting to be now such thing as an American or Japanese car company anymore Just large global companies.

just look what Ford owns
Ford - USA
Lincon - USA
Mercury - USA
Jaguar - UK
Aston Marton - UK
Volvo - Sweeden
Mazda - Japan
Land rover - UK

Yeah, it pains me to agree with you but it's true.

It makes me even more vigorously protest the molestation of American Icon models like the Mustang, Vette, Camaro, and GTO. I can't be specific, but something just doesn't sit well with me knowing that the American GTO of yore is now a GTO-from-Oz...

I guess times are a changin...
At least the '05 Mustang was done in good ol' Californy!;)

Within a few years, all we'll do in the US, in no particular order, is:

1) law
2) high level accounting
3) govt/political jobs
4) deliver pizzas
5) wash cars and walk dogs
6) repair things made elsewhere
7) entertainment/news
8) retail things made elsewhere
9) harvest trees and minerals and ship them elsehwere to be manufactured into something
10)a little farming, so long as it's not labor intensvive
12)manage software and hardware networks designed and built elsewhere

In fact, this may be all we do now.

So true! I'd change #8 to: Market/retail things made elsewhere

but besidse that, its so true! #12 hits home to me. :(



Originally posted by quick
Within a few years, all we'll do in the US, in no particular order, is:

1) law
2) high level accounting
3) govt/political jobs
4) deliver pizzas
5) wash cars and walk dogs
6) repair things made elsewhere
7) entertainment/news
8) retail things made elsewhere
9) harvest trees and minerals and ship them elsehwere to be manufactured into something
10)a little farming, so long as it's not labor intensvive
12)manage software and hardware networks designed and built elsewhere

In fact, this may be all we do now.

While the Big Three seem intent on moving their engineering overseas, note that Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are not only moving more design work to the US, but also continuing to increase the number of US suppliers that they use (and we should all understand how much design work is done by suppliers if we wish to continue this discussion). I'm continuously baffled by all of this, but I get money in my pocket either way :)

The VE is being developed down under, right? And thats the basis of what GM is building for the next few years. Although it is based off Sigma which was good ol US (albeit tested in Germany). But at least the cars going on to VE (GTO baby!) are of US design.

Originally posted by Eric Bryant
While the Big Three seem intent on moving their engineering overseas, note that Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are not only moving more design work to the US, but also continuing to increase the number of US suppliers that they use (and we should all understand how much design work is done by suppliers if we wish to continue this discussion). I'm continuously baffled by all of this, but I get money in my pocket either way :)

My impression has been for some time that the Japanese want to do design/build for each market in each market. This came as a result of the continued threat of trade wars in the 70s and 80s I think, among other things. GM and Ford already do this to some extent in that they own a car company in almost every major market and have had very little success exporting US designed and built cars. They have no fear of trade wars in the US, at least--they are US cos., so they are free to go elsewhere to escape the UAW and get engineers that work for 30K instead of 90K.

Of course, I am an American--I want it designed and built here, and sold everywhere. Our big multinationals have little national loyalty anymore.

Originally posted by quick
My impression has been for some time that the Japanese want to do design/build for each market in each market. This came as a result of the continued threat of trade wars in the 70s and 80s I think, among other things. GM and Ford already do this to some extent in that they own a car company in almost every major market and have had very little success exporting US designed and built cars. They have no fear of trade wars in the US, at least--they are US cos., so they are free to go elsewhere to escape the UAW and get engineers that work for 30K instead of 90K.

Of course, I am an American--I want it designed and built here, and sold everywhere. Our big multinationals have little national loyalty anymore.

Here-Here! :bow:

It is my (arrogant to some) opinion that we, as Americans, are some of the sharpest, smartest, and most determined people in the world. We have the higher education institutions churning out degrees in record numbers here. We developed the technology behind computers, virtually all communications known today, the light bulb, electricity(especially AC distribution method), flight, and putting man on the moon to list a few. We are world-renowned (and feared) for our determination, capability, and ability to overcome obsticles. We are only rivaled by the Europeans like the British, Dutch, and Germans when it comes to technological capability.

However, our greedy leaders in Corporate America see it as imperative that we save every penny possible to get the fat bottom line - moreso in the last 30 years than ever before. This is resulting in our jobs (due to labor cost) and our technology(due to manufacturing relocations) going off-shore. It scares the hell out of me.

The Japanese and Chinese have proven to be the best in the world at copying an idea or process, and enhancing or improving on it to the point that it is nearly perfect. They aren't too good at creating technology, but they beat the sh1+ out of us with it after they master it. Car-making is only one example of this.

We really screwed up when we let Demming go over to Asia after WWII and teach them about quality-driven improvements. While Demming couldn't get a foot in the door of GM or Ford here at home.:rolleyes:

I have moved electrical connector lines from NC to Mexico. I have moved wiring harness lines from NC to Beijing. I have designed and installed manufacturing facilities for OEM materials in China and Taiwan. IT SUCKS. I have wished workers farewell as they left the NC plant for the last time after 32 years of service - layed-off - then started crating-up their machines to ship abroad. But I got an extra $.03 401K matching contribution from my company to make up for it...:rolleyes:

We logically can not be an entire nation of CEO's, cops, or fast-food workers... there's something wrong with that picture to me - something missing. Oh yeah, it's called the working stiff - he lives somewhere BESIDES the US nowadays, huh?:(

What Im not understanding about Detroit is that the big 3 were on top of the world in the 60's and early 70's before the emissions thing happened and killed almost every car on the road. Now we have the technology, the following, and the GAS PRICES to bring these legends back. There is a slew of great names to bring back, but instead they choose to keep putting out crap like the AVEO. WTF??? Its almost like they arent trying anymore. Everyone keeps saying its going to get better and that there are some great cars coming. Well where the hell are they?

THe Aevo is only being sold to help the GM average CAFE requirement.

Did you guys know that the Nissan Titan was Designed, Engeneered, and Built in the USA for Only the American Market.

All of the car/truck companies are going more global

the reason some of these cars are from a "european" design is that they test the cars there first then bring them here. it was prob designed here tested there and then brought back here

Originally posted by quick
Of course, I am an American--I want it designed and built here, and sold everywhere. Our big multinationals have little national loyalty anymore.

US exports have suffered due to the strength of the dollar in recent years. I'm sure we'll see more exports from the US as the dollar continues to weaken, and as workers in developing nations continue to elevate their wage demands (see Hyundai workers in S. Korea for an example). Of course, as this all happens, we're busy dismantling infrastructure and forcing critical small businesses such as tool shops to close their shops, so the US's ability to react to such market dynamics is limited.

It makes a lot of sense to design a car in its target market due to the untanglables that are difficult to teach in college, especially a school 12,000 miles away from the consumers. And regardless of where the car is sold, I still think that the Americans know cars better than anyone else; it's just that American engineers aren't often allowed to express that knowledge.

The broken relationship between American OEMs and suppliers is the most obvious sign of this to me; my employeer makes Honda, Toyota and Nissan happy, but yet our relationship with domestic manufacturers often isn't as solid. To the American OEMs, off-shore purchasing and production are the golden opportunities for cost reduction, where as Honda would rather build parts in the vehicle's home market and hit their cost goals via capital investment in production technology and keeping a watchful eye over product development (our release engineer on our Accord product has 25 years of experience with this particular type of part, where as the average Ford or GM guy is using his release engineer position as a stepping stone to management).

Here is an article I found by Jerry Flint. If you've never heard of him, he is a fantastic auto industry columnist, and writes for Forbes (www.forbes.com)

------------------------------------------------
Have you noticed the strange thing about the global platform-sharing concept? It's a one-way street. Japanese and German cars and technologies are badged as American cars. But you never see an American platform used to build Japanese cars in Japanese factories. And did you realize that Rick Wagoner, president of General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ), is the last American to run a car company? Ford (nyse: F - news - people ) is run by foreigners. Yes, William Clay Ford Jr. is chairman and chief executive, but key operational people who really run the company are from abroad. DaimlerChrysler (nyse: DCX - news - people ), of course, is run by its German masters from Daimler. I could be wrong, but I think that some foreign executives have inborn prejudices against American products. To them, genuine American cars are too expressive, too loud and just too American. Anyway, it's an explanation for what seems to be happening in the American auto industry. I'll start with Ford, which isn't designing small cars in Detroit anymore. Look at the Ford Focus. It's a Euro design. Pretty expensive to build, but that's because the Europeans pay more for their small cars than we do and want more in them. The problem is the Europeans are upgrading the Focus, but I suspect we won't. Why? That would add costs. Remember that the old Ford Escort was $12,000, but a Focus goes for $16,000. So now Ford will probably let the Focus age in the U.S. The thing is that for years I knew that Europeans wanted better and more expensive small cars than Americans and this would eventually cause a problem. Why didn't Ford know this? Wouldn't it have been better to do a separate lower-cost car for America than do a Euro car that will not be kept up-to-date? Meanwhile, the Taurus, a national bestseller just a few years ago, and still a good seller, will be dropped in a few years. In its place, Ford dealers will get a version of the Mazda 6 sedan that Ford will call the Futura. It will get here sometime in 2005. Mercury will also get a Mazda 6 derivative. These cars will even have versions of Mazda engines. The Ford Futura Futura is a terrible name, of course. It was last used in the 1980s on totally forgettable cars built on Ford's Fox platform. Ford now wants to start its car names with the letter F. That means absolutely nothing to everybody but a few people in Ford headquarters. It's a minor issue but it shows where Ford is putting its priorities. The new Futura will be smaller than today's Taurus, which means that it won't be bigger than the competitive Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or Nissan Altima. To me this is a losing strategy. Americans like big things; foreigners like them smaller. Why not just build a better Taurus? Mazda does make fine cars, but for whatever reasons, Americans aren't buying them. In the first quarter of this year sales of Mazda cars are down 16%. On the other hand, sales of Taurus models are up 17%. The financial types love the idea of using Japanese or European platforms and engines so they can lay off American engineers. I say that Detroit is losing the ability to create its own vehicles, and is building cars that aren't all that attractive to American buyers. Such a strategy will not relieve U.S. manufacturers from the fat incentives they need to sell their vehicles. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe customers will be happy when the Taurus is gone and they get to buy smaller cars at the same price. We'll have to wait and see. General Motors is also making questionable decisions about platform-sharing. Saab, the Swedish company, will get two Japanese Subarus to sell in America. The story that Saab won't confirm: a version of the U.S.-built Chevy Trailblazer/GM Envoy/Buick Rainier/Isuzu Ascender is also slated for Saab dealerships. I bet the buying public can't wait for this truck. Saab has been put under control of Germans at Opel, GM's German company. Rick Wagoner Jr., the president of GM, said his company made too much of maintaining Saabness when they bought Saab. Well, we sure don't have to worry about Saabness anymore. But it raises the question: If GM doesn't want Saabness, why did it buy little Saab in the first place? GM recently took over bankrupt Daewoo in Korea. Two Daewoos will be badged as Chevrolet Aveos and sold here. Chevy dealers will probably be embarrassed to have these economy cars in their showrooms. Why is GM doing this? My guess: To keep the Korean factories going, because laying off Korean workers can lead to riots. Ruining the name of Chevrolet with cheap-looking imports is OK, of course. Then there's DaimlerChrysler, where a year from now Chrysler and Dodge will get the first of a new family of large rear-wheel-drive cars. These cars will make use of key Mercedes parts and designs, such as transmissions. The 2004 Chrysler 300C I give Chrysler credit; going back to rear-wheel-drive is a daring move, and I hope that it succeeds. The new designs are dramatic, too, but these cars will be more expensive than the cars that they replace, because of their use of Mercedes components. That's the risk, but it's a daring and exciting move. Meanwhile, the next generation of Chrysler's smaller cars (like the Dodge Neon and Stratus and the Chrysler Sebring) will be based on Mitsubishi platforms. Mitsubishi is one of the world's less-successful companies. You won't see any Mercedes cars using a Mitsubishi platform. They aren't good enough. But Parent Daimler says they are good enough for the Americans. Is this the globalism
we signed up for?

Sometimes i wish i was born in the days when cruising in Bel-Airs was cool and u could see some of the first Mustangs and Camaros tearing up the streets and see the big block Mopars like the 'Cuda and Charger representing Dodge in a way far better than the SRT-4 ever will. And Pontiac and Chevy rivalries were real because Chevy cars had Chevy engines and Pontiac cars had Pontiac engines. And it was a time when owning and driving an American car was cool and the only thing argued about was how many cubes ur engine had and how fast ur AMERICAN muscle car could shoot down the quarter mile. And we love to talk about 12 second showroom stock cars but those were the days when the Hemi Dart rolled off the lot able to run 8 SECOND quarter miles and could hand any of these newer cars their ass. Now i see why some drivers today buy these honda crapmobiles as their daily transportation and have their old school big block chevys, fords, or mopars as their FUN cars. to think just 35 years ago the Big 3 had it made and now here we sit and talk about this globalization crap and how probably new cars from the Big 3 in the next 5-20 years probably will have hardly any AMERICAN influence. God, CHANGE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Eric Bryant
US exports have suffered due to the strength of the dollar in recent years. I'm sure we'll see more exports from the US as the dollar continues to weaken, and as workers in developing nations continue to elevate their wage demands (see Hyundai workers in S. Korea for an example). Of course, as this all happens, we're busy dismantling infrastructure and forcing critical small businesses such as tool shops to close their shops, so the US's ability to react to such market dynamics is limited.

It makes a lot of sense to design a car in its target market due to the untanglables that are difficult to teach in college, especially a school 12,000 miles away from the consumers. And regardless of where the car is sold, I still think that the Americans know cars better than anyone else; it's just that American engineers aren't often allowed to express that knowledge.

The broken relationship between American OEMs and suppliers is the most obvious sign of this to me; my employeer makes Honda, Toyota and Nissan happy, but yet our relationship with domestic manufacturers often isn't as solid. To the American OEMs, off-shore purchasing and production are the golden opportunities for cost reduction, where as Honda would rather build parts in the vehicle's home market and hit their cost goals via capital investment in production technology and keeping a watchful eye over product development (our release engineer on our Accord product has 25 years of experience with this particular type of part, where as the average Ford or GM guy is using his release engineer position as a stepping stone to management).

1. American automotive exports are practically non-existant because of the of the American-owned overseas affiliates. For instance, GM owns Opel, Vauxhall and Holden. GM controls Isuzu and Saab, and owns substantial interests in Fiat, Subaru and Suzuki. Why attempt large exports of domestic vehicles? That's been the traditional, and perhaps mistaken, approach to overseas sales.

2. American engineers are "overpaid" by the standards of the global economy. It is hardly surprising that GM just hired the former head of the ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency) to head their new Indian design office. When you have a massive pool of Indian engineers who are just as qualified and well educated as their German and American counterparts, why not take advantage of the advantageous wage scales? When you can hire 8 Indian engineers for the salary of one U.S. colleague, you can afford to set up parallel design and engineering facilities.

In the new "global economy," the domestic marketing staff is the only element that can't be sent overseas. With a relatively small cadre of production engineers and design staff, a painless tranfer to overseas engineering is possible. I'd go far as to say that it's unavoidable.

3. If the Japanese "transplants" aren't as aggressive with suppliers, it might be because they aren't under similar financial pressures. Much like the now-troubled traditional airlines, domestic automanufacturers are buried under pension and employee benefit obligations. With their inherent cost efficiencies, the Japanese brands can worry about long-term investments in suppliers.

In addition, there is a cultural gap at play. The Wallmart practice of badgering suppliers for cost concessions and higher quality is the current credo of American business. Quite frankly, if you're big enough, you don't have to worry about how your suppliers will meet your demands. They can either just do it, or go out of business.

In the end, modern automotive manufactures are ultimately retailers. Beyond the brand itself, there isn't a single asset that can't be divested through outsourcing.

And one more thing, and then DaimlerChrysler had the nerve to resurrect a legendary name like the "HEMI" with those low hp ratings and stick it in a DAMN TRUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Another post from me. Before someone points it out and makes me look like a jacka$$, I said in my rant that the cuda represented dodge but the cuda was a plymouyh DUHHHHHHHHHH. still a HEMI though. my rant still stands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D

Originally posted by ProudPony



I have moved electrical connector lines from NC to Mexico. I have moved wiring harness lines from NC to Beijing. I have designed and installed manufacturing facilities for OEM materials in China and Taiwan. IT SUCKS. I have wished workers farewell as they left the NC plant for the last time after 32 years of service - layed-off - then started crating-up their machines to ship abroad. But I got an extra $.03 401K matching contribution from my company to make up for it...:rolleyes:



Maybe you've forgotten why some of those fine North Carolina residents have had their jobs for 32 years. Southern states undermined organized labor with "right-to-work" laws, and Northern factories were moved to Dixie to take advantage of the cheap labor. That process started in the 1950s, back in the "good old days" when Americans were taking jobs from other Americans.:usa:

Of course, the ultimate irony is that the movement of labor continues. With the normalization of trade with Vietnam, thousands of jobs left the factories along the Mexican border. The Vietnamese work for $1/day.
:usa: :usa: :usa: :D :D :D

Originally posted by redzed
Maybe you've forgotten why some of those fine North Carolina residents have had their jobs for 32 years. Southern states undermined organized labor with "right-to-work" laws, and Northern factories were moved to Dixie to take advantage of the cheap labor. That process started in the 1950s, back in the "good old days" when Americans were taking jobs from other Americans.:usa:

Of course, the ultimate irony is that the movement of labor continues. With the normalization of trade with Vietnam, thousands of jobs left the factories along the Mexican border. The Vietnamese work for $1/day.
:usa: :usa: :usa: :D :D :D
Well, another marked day in the history books...
me and red on the same page. :D
redzed - YOU ARE 100% CORRECT THERE BUDDY.
And let it be said that I do everything I can do to fight these moves, but I am only one guy - and like they say, "It's a job, if I don't do it, somebody else will." Doesn't mean I have to approve or like it though...:irk:

The advent of air conditioning and insecticide catalyzed the industrial move into Dixie in the middle 20th century, and now the combined benefits of cheap transportation and virtually "free" labor are sending the jobs to Asia.

I'd like to ad that the "movement" went into Mexico and central America in the '70's. Big companies like Sara Lee, Tyco Electronics, and MacCulloch are already moving OUT of Meico and into China and the Pacific Rim area.

What hurt so bad down here was that people with 25 years of service (non-union too) were making $12-$17/hour. That was good money for a high school grad in the '90's, but the people we were hiring in Mexico started at US$.29/hour. Engineers with a 4-year degree were making $19/day - no O.T. That pales to the union rates paid in MI and WI. :(

Originally posted by ProudPony
Well, another marked day in the history books...
me and red on the same page. :D
redzed - YOU ARE 100% CORRECT THERE BUDDY.
And let it be said that I do everything I can do to fight these moves, but I am only one guy - and like they say, "It's a job, if I don't do it, somebody else will." Doesn't mean I have to approve or like it though...:irk:

The advent of air conditioning and insecticide catalyzed the industrial move into Dixie in the middle 20th century, and now the combined benefits of cheap transportation and virtually "free" labor are sending the jobs to Asia.



I think the shift in labor is only registering with the public now that whitecollar jobs are moving overseas. Today, you have auditors and engineers in India performing the same jobs that Americans would have had a couple of years ago. Recently, Boeing's engineers demanded that the company fire half of their Russian engineering staff. Do you think they would have made this peculiar contract demand if they didn't feel threatened?

I'm not about to knock globalization, because I've seen what happened to Europe when they tried to hold it back. Overall, the economic and employment situation is worse in France or Germany than it is here. (Maybe the 30 hour work week wasn't a great idea?) It makes me wonder what shape our country would have been in if we hadn't let globalization happen?