Pontiac news

Pontiac tries pizzazz
GM confident revived GTOs won't repeat loss of buyers' zeal seen in Ford's T-birds

By Ed Garsten / The Detroit News

DETROIT -- Lynn Meyers wasn't shaken by last week's news that Ford Motor Co. will retire the recently revived Thunderbird by mid-decade -- but she certainly took notice.

Just months before General Motors Corp. performs its Lazarus act on the Pontiac GTO -- another so-called "heritage" brand, this one from the muscle car era -- the Pontiac-GMC marketing chief professed confidence this revival won't repeat the initial euphoria over the T-bird that quickly turned to consumer apathy.

While only 18,000 GTOs will be built, its revival is part of ambitious plans to put some pizzazz and muscle back into Pontiac -- GM's performance division.

"Pontiac is going through a rebirth, a total rebuilding of the brand," GM North America Chairman Bob Lutz told members of the Detroit Adcraft Club last month.

"We've got a lot of work to do," Meyers said. "We have to rebuild our credential as a performance division."

The need to do so has become more acute. Pontiac sales have dropped 9.5 percent this year. In 2002, sales were off 3 percent.

Moreover, the proliferation and popularity of SUVs and crossover vehicles has hurt Pontiac's sales, which are dependent on passenger cars.

Competitors such as Toyota Motor Co., Nissan Motor Co., BMW AG and even South Korean automaker Hyundai Motor Co. are all raising the horsepower in their products.

"The next few launches are going to be critical for Pontiac," said Mike Wall, an analyst with CSM Worldwide, an industry consultant based in Northville.

The first of Pontiac's new product introductions occurred last month with the redesigned Grand Prix. The new version relieves the venerable Grand Prix of its longtime plastic cladding and imbues it with a GTP performance option that features a 240-horsepower supercharged V6 engine.

"The Grand Prix is a good example of where we're headed in passenger cars," Lutz said.

The car is being supported with an aggressive advertising campaign bearing the tag line "Fuel for the Soul."

In one television commercial, a woman wearing sunglasses puts the car through high speed paces on a lonely stretch of desert. At the end of the spot, as she exits the car, she extends her walking stick -- suggesting she is blind. The idea: convey how anyone can feel the spirit of great driving.

In another ad, two boys are sitting in the back seat of the new Grand Prix playing handheld computer games while dad mimics the motions using the optional steering wheel-mounted shifting paddles. When the car comes to a stop, dad looks at the boys and deadpans, "I win."

The goal with that commercial is to highlight Pontiac's desire to become an aspiration brand and that the driving experience is "thrilling."

Pontiac will launch the Bonneville GXP with an 8-cylinder engine later this year -- at the same time the GTO debuts.

The trick to avoiding the Thunderbird's fate, Meyers says, is to honor the GTO'S heritage, but not dwell on it.

"In terms of performance, it's a better GTO," Meyers said. "It's a contemporary GTO, very much a sports coupe for the 21st century."

Still, some Pontiac dealers hoped for a more "radical" design for the car, which is based on the Monaro -- engineered and built by GM's Australian affiliate Holden Motors. And enthusiast clubs have pummeled the new GTO simply because it doesn't resemble the original.

But Meyers says the company is working hard to blunt criticism, in part, by inviting leaders of GTO clubs to get behind the wheel and test the car's 400 horsepower engine. ( :eek: )

"It's important for them to experience the car so they can feel the performance," said Meyers.

Pontiac is also looking to bolster its performance portfolio with the Bonneville GXP, but some analysts believe it's an easy way to mark time for a fading brand.

"It's just a measure to keep the brand going for awhile. It's been hammered in the marketplace," Wall said.

An all-new Grand Am will be introduced next year, completing Pontiac's four-prong passenger car attack.

"The products are right on target," said Gregory Jackson, owner of Prestige Buick-Pontiac-GMC in Ypsilanti. "The key for us is to get people in the vehicle. If we can get them in the vehicle, they'll buy because the handling is phenomenal."

GM's new overnight test drive program is aimed at accomplishing that, but Meyers said Pontiac faces an ongoing challenge to lure so-called "conquest" buyers who wouldn't otherwise consider a GM product.

"We have a lot of doubters out there," she said.

Pontiac and GMC, its light truck unit, are beginning to make some headway. The company says 35 percent of customers who bought the Pontiac Vibe were non-GM customers, while 45 percent of GMC Envoy and 44 percent of GMC Yukon buyers previously owned different brand vehicles.

While GMC sales are down 15 percent this year, last month saw record sales for the Envoy.

Later this year, the Envoy XUV will go on sale featuring a reconfigurable midgate now on the Chevrolet Avalanche and Cadillac Escalade EXT, along with a retractable rear roof for loading tall items. It will also come equipped with a rubber load bed with drain holes to make it easy to hose off.

Pontiac and GMC have long shared showroom space, but in February Buick was added as a third marketing "channel."

In February, former Chevrolet chief Kurt Ritter was appointed to a new position as general manager of Buick and Pontiac-GMC. Meyers retained her spot as Pontiac-GMC general manager, reporting to Ritter.

While many dealers are "dualed" as Pontiac-GMC or Buick-GMC sales points, Meyers says the goal is to eventually put all three brands under one roof.

"It's like an auto mall," Meyers said. "If we give more people more choices in one location, they're likely to get more shoppers."

Dealers welcome the strategy.

"It works pretty well together," Jackson said. "Each brand stands for something different."

With Asian, European and Detroit rivals adding power to their passenger car offerings, Pontiac faces a formidable challenge to reclaim its place as a prominent performance brand.

But unlike the power of its model lineup, Pontiac will get there slowly.

"It could take a couple of years," she said. "It's not going to be a miracle overnight."

Originally posted by guionM
But Meyers says the company is working hard to blunt criticism, in part, by inviting leaders of GTO clubs to get behind the wheel and test the car's 400 horsepower engine

Hmmm...
was that a generalization, typo, or Freudian Slip!:eek:

The GTO engine is suppost to get a new cam. 340hp might be a little underrated :eek: :D

PLEASE LET IT BE TRUE !!! and let it be the base model get those 400 ponies...

damn, now im anxious.

I saw that too...I hope it isn't just a dumb marketing manager talking about something she is uninformed.

I find it more than ironic that they are trying to pump muscle into a brand that until this year had a car in its lineup that was the very embodiment of muscle. Its as if the Firebird/Trans Am never existed at all.

And the sales being down 9.5 percent. I know the Firebird represented only about 25,000 units per year at the end..wonder how much that contributes to the 9.5%

I believe if the GTO is to be a success, they will have to do something with that body. Part of what makes a muscle car a muscle car is the look. People should instantly be intimidated by the look of one. I cant see myself looking at this thing and being intimidated. Now put some functional hood scoops dual exhaust on it and its on.

Long live the great one, for better or worse.:bow:

What about Chevrolet?! How can they call Pontiac GM's Performance Division?! What is B.L. doing/thinking?! So many people spell performance C-H-E-V-R-O-L-E-T (you know, the name of the racecar driver it was named after?!) it has the best performance history in GM, and they just concentrate on Pontiac like all of a sudden it is the most important or the most popular. I think there are alot of revisionists inside GM right now.

I think Pontiac is considered the performance division because the majority of Chevys sales are trucks. Plus when things got rough in the 70s, pontiac said to hell with standards, and put out bigger engines. Just a few reasons.

Originally posted by USHotRod
I believe if the GTO is to be a success, they will have to do something with that body. Part of what makes a muscle car a muscle car is the look. People should instantly be intimidated by the look of one. I cant see myself looking at this thing and being intimidated. Now put some functional hood scoops dual exhaust on it and its on.

Long live the great one, for better or worse.:bow:

I am sure they will sell everyone they make with people wanting more. It is a great car to begin with even before you add the GTO name.

The first of Pontiac's new product introductions occurred last month with the redesigned Grand Prix. The new version relieves the venerable Grand Prix of its longtime plastic cladding and imbues it with a GTP performance option that features a 240-horsepower supercharged V6 engine.

is it 240hp or 260? i thought it was 260...

Originally posted by formula79
I am sure they will sell everyone they make with people wanting more. It is a great car to begin with even before you add the GTO name.

Oh I agree. But I dont think that it will last for more than a few years unless something is done. Plus I think true muscle car fans will pass it up for other options that are a little more impressive.

Originally posted by IZ28
What about Chevrolet?! How can they call Pontiac GM's Performance Division?! What is B.L. doing/thinking?! So many people spell performance C-H-E-V-R-O-L-E-T (you know, the name of the racecar driver it was named after?!) it has the best performance history in GM, and they just concentrate on Pontiac like all of a sudden it is the most important or the most popular. I think there are alot of revisionists inside GM right now.

Disagree. This isn't "revisionist" at all. Chevy has a great performance history I agree, but in the past 20 years how many Chevys have been real performers? Camaro and Corvette. Even then, Chevy has been GM's volume brand. Volume means lower priced, more everyday cars.

Think about it for a sec. Pontiac had Firebird. The Firebird got the turbo motor in '89 but Camaro did not. Pontiac also got Fiero, invented the muscle car concept with GTO and had supercharged W-bodies long before Chevy got one, which was also long before Bob Lutz ever came aboard.

I don't think Pontiac needs to worry... the new GTO and new T-Bird are apples to oranges.

The first is a decently appointed highway cruiser / muscle machine, albeit somewhat disguised. As someone said - throw on some functional hood scoops (please no fake crap) and a more noticable exahust.... I'm sure SLP will be willing to oblige.

The latter is a torpid, poorly executed retro (i.e. there is good retro - just the t-bird ain't it) slug that relies on some ad. man's notion of cool to sell it. Sorry Ford, but the new T-bird is not cool... just because Frank Sinatra once drove one in some movie. Pfft.

Get rid of the horrible rear end of the GTO for the new 06, or even spruce it up for 05. I mean the whole back of that car looks like a minivan, I'm sorry to be the messenger. One of those "Caution: baby on board" window trinkets would fit right in, when you look at the car from the back. Not a single aggressive line anywhere. The rest of it is fine.

regardless, I'm 100% behind the GTO and I know it will succeed, even with its tame Monaro visual cues.

gt

Originally posted by kizz
Get rid of the horrible rear end of the GTO for the new 06, or even spruce it up for 05. I mean the whole back of that car looks like a minivan, I'm sorry to be the messenger. One of those "Caution: baby on board" window trinkets would fit right in, when you look at the car from the back. Not a single aggressive line anywhere. The rest of it is fine.
gt

Maybe the back should be spruced up a bit. I can't imagine the havoc that would be caused if the person who just got whipped with one sees what appears to be a single exhaust system sticking out the back. :D

I guess a higher HP engine makes sense for the car, but man the LS6 is really getting pimped out to other cars. I cant see GM giving a pony-type car a 55 hp higher rating that a base Corvette.

Originally posted by guionM
[B]The first of Pontiac's new product introductions occurred last month with the redesigned Grand Prix. The new version relieves the venerable Grand Prix of its longtime plastic cladding and imbues it with a GTP performance option that features a 240-horsepower supercharged V6 engine.


The old Grand Prix DIDN'T have any cladding!!!!!! and the new one is 260HP not 240HP. I wish they would get people that know what they are talking about when they right these articles

Originally posted by Z28x
The old Grand Prix DIDN'T have any cladding!!!!!! and the new one is 260HP not 240HP. I wish they would get people that know what they are talking about when they right these articles

I know. It's funny that because the Aztek had the controversial plastic cladding, everyone assumes all Pontiacs had it. :confused:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by guionM
[B][B]Pontiac tries pizzazz

"We've got a lot of work to do," Meyers said. "We have to rebuild our credential as a performance division."


Not really - Along with the new GTO offer a new mid-engine v6/v8.
This would show many people that performance is back at Pontiac instead of offering us the hot selling Aztek. (Note: it is such a marketing success, most people misspell the name Aztec, great brand awareness).

With all the focus GM is putting on cars, they should make it a priority to develop cars that are in demand and had a huge following previously. I dont know that many people that are just dying to have a Solstice (besides Bob Lutz). Grand National would be another example which Buick should resurrect. On the car side of things too many core products were dumped in the past , which meant GM almost became GT (General Trucks).

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
"Disagree. This isn't "revisionist" at all. Chevy has a great performance history I agree, but in the past 20 years how many Chevys have been real performers? Camaro and Corvette."

How many have Pontiac had?? 1. ;) No matter what, Chevy has a better performance image and history.

"Think about it for a sec. Pontiac had Firebird. The Firebird got the turbo motor in '89 but Camaro did not. Pontiac also got Fiero, invented the muscle car concept with GTO and had supercharged W-bodies long before Chevy got one, which was also long before Bob Lutz ever came aboard."

Yeah Pontiac got the TTA, but regular production Firebirds were slower than Camaros (TPI) which had a better intake making them almost always run faster and always rated higher in power. So maybe they deserved it. :D Also, the Camaro was the car considered for that 92 Anniversary car that never got made, not the Firebird.

Originally posted by IZ28
Originally posted by Z28Wilson
[B]"How many have Pontiac had?? 1. ;) No matter what, Chevy has a better performance image and history.

Yeah Pontiac got the TTA, but regular production Firebirds were slower than Camaros (TPI) which had a better intake making them almost always run faster and always rated higher in power. So maybe they deserved it. :D Also, the Camaro was the car considered for that 92 Anniversary car that never got made, not the Firebird.

Actually, Pontiac's performance history is in fact arguably greater than Chevrolet's. Beyond GTO and Trans Ams, pretty much all Pontiacs had it's roots in performance from Bonneville & Catalinias to Grand Prix, and even Tempest. Chevrolet was cheap performance, but as a general rule in GM's hiarchy was generally slower than Pontiacs. Most of Chevy's true performance history is recent.

Here's some history on Pontiac performance :
http://www.pontiacserver.com/ap1.html
http://www.autoswalk.com/pontiacgto.html
http://www.ranrich.com/gp1962.htm

Trivia: The 1961-1963 Pontiac Tempest (the predecessor of GTO's donor car the 1964 Tempest) came with:
1) An overhead cam inline 6 cylinder engine!!
2) 4 wheel independent suspension!!
3) A flexible driveshaft!!
4) A rear transaxle...just like the current C5!! :eek:
(imagine if GTO came out a year earlier. :think: )

It was made in a more conventional way in 1964 by GM to cut costs. The Oldsmobile version had a turbocharged V8!!

Originally posted by guionM
Actually, Pontiac's performance history is in fact arguably greater than Chevrolet's.

Here's some history on Pontiac performance :

Smokey and the Bandit
Smokey and the Bandit II
Knight Rider

Originally posted by IZ28
regular production Firebirds were slower than Camaros (TPI) which had a better intake making them almost always run faster and always rated higher in power

You're way off on this one. Firebirds had TPI availability (on Formula and Trans AM; mandatory on GTA) just like Camaros did (on Z28 and IROC-Z), and the performance difference between a similarly equipped TPI Firebird and Camaro of the same year is .. negligible, at best. I'm sure you're a member of thirdgen.org so you already know where I'm coming from. Don't let brand loyalty be a blinding factor here.

In fact I'll take it one step further. A Firebird Formula's mission is to have the performance of a Trans am with significant weight reduction. A TPI Formula will usually be lighter in weight than any TPI Camaro you can come up with from the same model year. Either 305 or 350, but same motor in both. Also it's a well-documented fact that thirdgen Firebird has superior aerodynamics to thirdgen Camaro. There you go.. same exact drivetrain, lighter Firebird has the advantage, more aerodynamic Firebird has the advantage. In the real world I'd expect the Formula to come out on top of the Z28 more than half the time.

guionM is right about PMD history too. :thumb:

gt

Originally posted by redzed
Here's some history on Pontiac performance :

Smokey and the Bandit
Smokey and the Bandit II
Knight Rider

XXX and XXX2

a 69 Yenko 427 Camaro will be in fast and fureous 2

Originally posted by Z28x
XXX and XXX2

The MacGyver episode "Collision Course" was thirdgen-central :) They showed the canadian GM Player's Challenge cars pretty much nonstop in the episode and even crashed one. MacGyver drove an 86 Trans Am, of course :) I recommend it to any thirdgen fan.

and yeah Knight Rider, who could forget that.. for better or worse. The amount of jumps, posi burnouts and 180-flips in that show is insane. Awesome show, but it unfortunately started a feeding frenzy on 82 T/A's, which are all but extinct today, at least in good original shape. I still watch it every day on Sci-fi channel but it's about to be over with.

gt

Ill go out on a limb here and say that Pontiac and Chevy have just about the same amount of heritage. Take the middle road!

Although we all know Caddy's history dwarfs every other manufacturer out there, right? :)

Well, I guess we're all gonna have our own opinion here. :)

Let's also not forget that Pontiac was carrying the performance flag with the T/A in the mid-70's when Z28 went the way of the dodo. And which brand was it that continued to use the monster 400 motors in their pony cars at a time when everyone else was giving up on performance, including Chevy?

I'm a Chevy guy too IZ28 but it isn't wise to disrespect the heritage that Pontiac has as well.

I'm not, its just that Chevy has a better performance history. Which is what made them, their engines, and their musclecars so popular with enthusiats, maybe the most popular divison of American cars ever among performance people. I mean you can find every other brand of musclecar with Chevy engines swapped in, but trying to find a Chevy with another brands' engine is incredibly difficult. ;) When I go to car shows, its usually mostly Chevys. Chevy is also the most winningest brand in racing history. :D There are probably more desirable performance cars/cars in Chevrolets history than any other.

Originally posted by IZ28
Chevy has a better performance history. Which is what made them, their engines, and their musclecars so popular with enthusiats

No doubt they are popular, but I think they stand out in your mind because A) they are GM's mass-market brand so of course there's gonna be more Chevys out there than any other GM brand, and B) Chevy is what you have chosen to focus in on, because that happens to be your thing. When you block out everything but Chevy, of course they will look like #1.

Do you know anything about the Super Duty Trans Am's or the 421 or the 389 or the 336 (and why it was called a 326 instead), the triple deuces, the Ram Air III's and IV's? Didn't think so. Those are all defining moments and turning points in musclecar history and they're all about PMD, not Chevy.

P.S. the 326 actually does displace 336 cubic inches, but it was called a 326 because Chevy wouldn't have it any other way. I'm serious. They couldn't sit back and be outshined by a bigger better motor than their 327, even though the 336 was just that. So PMD was forced to have the engine called one cube smaller, when it was 9 cubes bigger. Talk about playing dirty, on Chevy's part :rolleyes::cool:

P.S. #2: The Mako Shark II and Manta Ray concept cars that led to the entire design of the C3 vette were based heavily on the 1964 Banshee concept, by none other than Pontiac. Basically a stolen idea.

P.S. #3: You ever heard of the 1982 Turbo Trans Am? Of course not. It never existed. Why? Because it was cancelled, due in large part to whining and complaining by Chevy. The turbo bulge hood was ready to go and they were gonna have displays through it just like the 80-81 Turbo had. Chevy had the clout, and didn't want a faster Trans Am anymore, so the project never happened. Same Chevy politics killed a ready-to-go 180HP 305 that same model year, leaving only the 165HP LU5. The LU5 was also one of the the first "corporate" engines that technically was not owned by any division, again due in large part to Chevy's jealousy, among other things. And it was not available with a 4-speed, robbing it of its full potential, again thanks to Chevy. Guilty.. :rolleyes:

P.S. #4, and this is kind of tongue-in-cheek but true: The LQ8/LQ9/etc a.k.a. "Iron Duke" that's still good enough for zillions of USPS mail micro-vans running today ultimately started out life as a Pontiac motor. Remember that stand-off in the middle of a highway a few months ago with a guy holed up in a USPS micro-van? That was an Iron Duke. They even sold thousands of Dukers to AMC/Jeep/Renault, or whatever the heck that company was back then.

I strongly recommend the book "Firebird! America's Premier Performance Car: The Complete Story" by Gary Witzenburg, written in 1982. After 1982, all F-body drivetrains have been pretty much identical between the 2 sister cars so there's nothing big to talk about. That is, of course, unless you take the 'vette killer 89 TTA, another ballsy move by Pontiac, and not the other guys :) So as it turns out, the book was written at the perfect time for talking about Firebird's unique history from the drawing board up till the end of the relevant differences. It's an awesome book, with info you won't find anywhere else.

I don't usually hype up PMD but hey this is the perfect thread for it :)

gt

I also rember in 74 they wanted to put the SD 455 in the T/A, Grand Am, and GTO untill coprate stopped them.


Using the Turbo 301 in an 82 Trans Am wouldn;t have been all that good...it's a horible engine.

Good Pontiac commentary, Kizz.

For me, the glory days for Pontiac performance started the day that "Bunkie" Knudsen was given the job of saving Pontiac. From the late 50's until the mid-sixties, Pontiac was one exciting division. Beautiful sheetmetal, Super Duty internals, multiple carbs........WOW!

On the subject of Firebird.......I think that it used to be more fun when it wasn't a mechanical clone of Camaro. It would have been even more fun if Chevy had actually stepped up to the plate and made Z/28 compete with Trans Am in the mid to late "70s.

The only Chevy motor that could hold a candle to the T/A 6.6 was the Corvette's L-82.....a motor that would never be considered for a mere Camaro.

So it wasn't only Firebird that GM liked to hurt kizz.:( :(

Originally posted by redzed
Here's some history on Pontiac performance :

Smokey and the Bandit
Smokey and the Bandit II
Knight Rider

Smokey & the Bandit: 2nd most profitible move that year, and almost single handedly created the Trans Am legend of the late 70s (as if it needed any help....it was ONLY the quickest American made car in 1975-1978, and was second only to the Corvette in top speed). That's all. :rolleyes: )

Smokey & the Bandit II: Bad movie, and the car was a ghost of itself, but it still had a turbocharged V8.

Knight Rider: NEWSFLASH: Kitt wasn't real!

If the only bashing you can give a car is the movies and TV shows they were in when most of the people here were still in learning pronouns or on their 1st date, then you are really, really reaching, bub! :lol:

Since the GTO Pontiac models have taken precedence (generally) over thier respective Chevrolet models...why? Because that is Pontiac's gimmick...performance. You can't have an excitment division with cars slower than your average Chevy.


Has they said in one Chapter of "All Corvette's are Red" aside from the Vette, and maybe Camaro they market Chevys to peple who have trouble patying thier bills.

Originally posted by formula79
...they market Chevys to peple who have trouble patying thier bills.

Crude and oversimplified as usual, but I think we know what you mean. :blah:

If pontiac is the performance division, why are all the V8's in Chevys? At least for the moment.

Originally posted by USHotRod
If pontiac is the performance division, why are all the V8's in Chevys? At least for the moment.

Heh, I guess you had to slip that in real quick, before the GTO comes out? :) Which, being a RWD coupe V8, is a car unlike anything on Chevy's roster for next year. I'm excluding Corvette, since that's basically worlds apart from any other Chevy, in mission statement and in price. Right now as we speak it's a VERY unusual time for PMD, being the first time in 40 years without a single V8 in any model. This has never happened before in modern times, so it's a highly rare highly unusual time that allows your statement to be made, and it's a good point, but a temporary situation.

Speaking of Corvette, and speaking of Pontiac.. here's something I bet most people never contemplated:

The 1982 had better aerodynamics than the old model. In fact, its 0.312 coeficcient of drag rating was more slippery than the next-generation 1984 Corvette's 0.34. This wasn't the first time that the Trans-Am's advances threatened the Corvette's position as GM's official sports car.

And that's only half the story, because with certain options (namely the W62 aero package and the default N89 wheels), a 1984 T/A had a coefficient of drag as low as 0.299.

But the part in bold is something that people *never* think about. Seems so implausible, yet that's how it was in those days, before everything was watered down in the 90s and 00s.

gt

Originally posted by formula79
I also rember in 74 they wanted to put the SD 455 in the T/A, Grand Am, and GTO untill coprate stopped them.

Well they DID put the SD 455 in the 74 T/A. 73 and 74 were the only T/A years for that motor, a.k.a. LS2. It made a modest 315hp in 73. That was the last year for Ram-Air I believe, till 1982.

73 M3 SD455 T/A - 180 made
73 A4 SD455 T/A - 72 made
74 M3 SD455 T/A - 212 made
74 A4 SD455 T/A - 731 made
74 SD455 Formula - 57 total (dunno transmission breakdowns)
73-74 grand total - 1252 SD455's.

There was a different motor that still survived into 75 - 76 called the 455 HO a.k.a. L75, but there was nothing "high output" about it. It was rated at 200hp and didn't have ONE single high-performance part. It was the same motor used in station wagons, etc.

those are net, not gross, FWIW.

I don't think it ever went in the G/A, and the GTO was already on the deathbed, and with the volatile oil situation, they decided to have it go out with a whimper instead of a bang, doh.

gt

CARS magazine actually gave their 1973 Car of the Year award to the 1974 SD455 GTO and then it was never produced! There were test mules, though. I can't imagine how fast the 1974 GTO would have been with the SD455. Probably would have been the fastest car of the year.

Interesting argument, but here's a theory. If Pontiac is supposed to be the "American BMW" per good ol' BL, why not have Chevy be the true purveyor of cheap speed? You know, the SRT-4 division, not the BMW division :D

I commented to my sales manager this morning, the ONLY GM division that does anything for me at this point is Pontiac (luckily enough, where I work!). From '99-'01 or so, Olds used to be my personal favorite, but farewell. For year and years in the '80s to mid '90s, Chevy was the one though that fueled my automotive passions. What happened?

Wheres my Camaro?
Wheres my Monte SS with RWD and a V8?
Hell, wheres my nice, cheap FWD performance like Z24 and Z26/GTZ?

Anyone home at Chevy?

For the first time ever, there is not ONE Chevrolet product I would even CONSIDER buying! A damn shame, considering Chevy is the line that got me into cars...

Originally posted by Jason E

Anyone home at Chevy?

For the first time ever, there is not ONE Chevrolet product I would even CONSIDER buying! A damn shame, considering Chevy is the line that got me into cars...

Man....did you ever hit the nail on the head! What would I buy?....umm...nothing, really.

Twelve or fifteen years ago, there would have been plenty.

-The Camaro for example.

-The Beretta GTZ/Z26...Chevy's goal was to make it the best performing FWD in the world....(and they came pretty close to doing it).

-Cavalier Z24.....it was hard to beat the original's combo of good looks, good performance and attainable price.

-Monte Carlo SS...(the other one, with the V8 and RWD)

-454SS...ha!...what do you know, a Chevy performance truck with balls.

Did I miss any??

You get the impression that there was a time when Chevy was actually trying.

Oh, a Z06 would be nice, ...of course, I could have bought any 4 of the previously mentioned 5 for the same price.

Originally posted by kizz
But the part in bold is something that people *never* think about. Seems so implausible, yet that's how it was in those days, before everything was watered down in the 90s and 00s.

gt

Pontiac also had sights set on challenging the Corvette with the Fiero--something else I'm sure people see as implausible.

Originally posted by jrp4uc
Pontiac also had sights set on challenging the Corvette with the Fiero--something else I'm sure people see as implausible.

Really?

Everything I've read about Fiero has said it was meant to be a 'sporty' car more than a performace car from the beginning, and that was why it mucked along with just a 4-banger in the beginning until they offered the 6 (which was finally added because of all the 'lack of power for it's image' complaints).... and even the 6 wasn't exactly a world beater. ;)

I am no Fiero expert... but I have read a decent amount of stuff on the car... the only direct Corvette comparable thing ever mentioned is that they both were 2-seaters.... but so was Buick Reatta... and Cadillac Alante... and I dont think they were ever meant as Corvette competitors either.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Really?

Everything I've read about Fiero has said it was meant to be a 'sporty' car more than a performace car from the beginning, and that was why it mucked along with just a 4-banger in the beginning until they offered the 6 (which was finally added because of all the 'lack of power for it's image' complaints).... and even the 6 wasn't exactly a world beater. ;)

I am no Fiero expert... but I have read a decent amount of stuff on the car... the only direct Corvette comparable thing ever mentioned is that they both were 2-seaters.... but so was Buick Reatta... and Cadillac Alante... and I dont think they were ever meant as Corvette competitors either.

Just to point out a few things. Number one is that the fiero wasn't intended originally to be a sports car. Look at the 84 literature it was a commuter car!:confused: Also those little v6 or 4 cly (SD4) cars COULD outhandle the same year corvette in a road race situation, on 14 or 15 inch rims. And just to let you know there are some fiero prototypes that are going to be at a fiero event comming up. It is rumored that 1 has a GN motor:metal: with an integrated intercooler built into the spoiler, yeah that is where Proche got the idea. One of the other cars is supposed to have a DOHC 6 possibly in the 4.3 liter range. Now put that up against any vette up to a Z06 C5 and my money will be on the fiero.

Originally posted by 91_z28_4me
Just to point out a few things. Number one is that the fiero wasn't intended originally to be a sports car. Look at the 84 literature it was a commuter car!:confused:

This is what I am talking about... I am talking stock form, not aftermarket.

You can make just about anything fast after it leaves the factory if you want to put the money and time into it...

I'm not ripping Fiero or anything, I like them actually... I am just saying that I had never heard it was ever meant as a Corvette competitor from Pontiac.

Darth I get where you are coming from but I just want to make my point clear. Even though the car was designed as a commuter car it would still run with or beat corvettes on the road courses. Which is pretty damn impressive for a car based off of the Citation's suspension.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Really?

Everything I've read about Fiero has said it was meant to be a 'sporty' car more than a performace car from the beginning, and that was why it mucked along with just a 4-banger in the beginning until they offered the 6 (which was finally added because of all the 'lack of power for it's image' complaints).... and even the 6 wasn't exactly a world beater. ;)

I am no Fiero expert... but I have read a decent amount of stuff on the car... the only direct Corvette comparable thing ever mentioned is that they both were 2-seaters.... but so was Buick Reatta... and Cadillac Alante... and I dont think they were ever meant as Corvette competitors either.

I'll have to go through my old mags to find the story, but I do remember reading about how some intended for it to compete with Corvette. That shouldn't come as too much of a shock as many within GM had long wanted to go mid-engine with the Corvette.

Ultimately, yes it started as being pitched as a commuter car, but wound up a very respectable sports car. While the V6 may seem humble by today's standards, it was certainly on par with other sporty cars of that period--the lowly '80s. The handling is still exceptional.

Had it received the turbo as planned for '89/90, it would be clear just how special of a car it was. As it is, it is a unique sports car that set sales mildstones and retains a very strong following to this day.

It's sort of ironic that the Fiero was killed at least partially due to high insurance premiums when it had not yet come close to its performance potential. It was really just coming into its own when it was canned. I remember an article in High Performance Pontiac back in 1987 or so about the "next" Fiero before it was cancelled and it could have been the closest thing to a domestic exotic on the market at the time had it come to fruition.

As it is, Jerry has the best of the breed - the 1988 Fiero Formula. By far my favorite Fiero they ever made.

Actually the Fiero was intended as a high performance car from the start.

Chevrolet was ready to veto the car via it's influence on the predecessor of GM's strategy board (if I'm not mistaken, it was voted down at one point), and Pontiac re-submitted it as a economy-commuter car.

I'll dig it up later if I get enough time, but there is an interview where the people responsible for Fiero came out and said this. Their intention was to get the car out first, then add performance to it as it was in production.

Originally posted by guionM
Actually the Fiero was intended as a high performance car from the start.

Chevrolet was ready to veto the car via it's influence on the predecessor of GM's strategy board (if I'm not mistaken, it was voted down at one point), and Pontiac re-submitted it as a economy-commuter car.

I'll dig it up later if I get enough time, but there is an interview where the people responsible for Fiero came out and said this. Their intention was to get the car out first, then add performance to it as it was in production.

That'd be an interesting read. :)

Everything I have read about Fiero has stated the opposite...

Not the articles I was looking for (gotta get back to work) but still...

"The main engineers involved in the project were Hulki Aldikacti and Edward Falardeau. Hulki, who has worked on many Pontiac prototypes in he past, had been previously unsuccessful in launching a mid-engine car. He just could not get the support of the corporate V.I.P’s. Finally, when Pontiac proposed a mid-engine sports car in 1978, he saw his opportunity."

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3487/early.html


"Enthusiasts were hoping for this to be a rip-roaring sports car, but due to tight purse strings in the early '80s, Pontiac would never fund such a project unless it was a commuter car. On the other hand, if off-the-shelf components (like Citation and Chevette suspensions) were used, the car's looks would promise things it couldn't possibly deliver. The only hope was to introduce it as a commuter vehicle and refine the basic package as time went on"

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/4127/fiero.html
Fiero information....much of it sounds like it was a sports car to me:
http://www.classicfiero.com/history.html
http://members.rogers.com/ottawafiero/fhistory.html

1993 Fiero Spy pictures....yes spy pictures:
http://www.fiero.org/1990.html

And about those engine fire stories:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3487/fire.html

Fiero safety:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3487/safety.html

I'm no Fiero expert either, but I do remember reading that the 89-90 era Fiero GTA prototype that was circulating around fiero.nl a few months ago was never built partly because it was perceived as a threat to the Corvette.

I don't have the pics handy but a lot of you guys remember which one I'm talking about, with a sort of reddish paint job, 4th gen -type gauge cluster, GTA type wheels, bigger than the 84-88 Fiero.. totally unique car.

Just making a point. The 64 Banshee, the 82-84 T/A, this Fiero GTA, and a handful of others I'm probably forgetting; Pontiac has had numerous cars that could've risen to the level of the Vette that either were never built at all, or were built with lesser specs, all at least partly due to Chevy's politics.

:alert: great references from guion, as usual

gt

I have a lot of faith in future Pontiac performance, Most of the GXP models should be out in the next couple years. By this fall Pontiac will have a 300HP V8 Bonneville and 340-360HP GTO.

06 or 07 Grand Prix will be RWD so they will finally be able to put in a trans that can handle over 280tq

05 grand am might be getting AWD and S/C V6

Originally posted by 91_z28_4me
. Which is pretty damn impressive for a car based off of the Citation's suspension.

Only the 84-87 models had the chevette and citation suspension. The 88 models had all new brakes and susp- highlighted by a tri-link IRS which was similar is design to those of Lotus. Rear sway bar also was added. Upgrade costed 30 million. Could have been used on 84 models but was cut since it would have increased project cost by 10%. The 88 formula or gt can equal or beat the slalom time of a 03 base vette. Zo6 is only 2-3 mph faster. Pontiac wanted to continue production, it was GM board which cancelled the car.

If the turbo model fiero made it to market Pontiac was considering requiring a drivers school be taken as part of purchase. They even considered extending fiero warranties or subsidizing insurance costs. Further along alum chassis was considered for production. (Eventually used to make ev1).


The car had world class potential. The 88 which is the heaviest model weighs 275 lbs LESS than the 03 Zo6. An alum chassis would make fiero almost 500 pounds lighter!! The technology of the fiero isnt outdated even today. Fiero had door reinforcement bars to protect against t-bone accidents in 1984, Corvette didnt get them until 1997.

Originally posted by Z28x
I have a lot of faith in future Pontiac performance, Most of the GXP models should be out in the next couple years. By this fall Pontiac will have a 300HP V8 Bonneville and 340-360HP GTO.

06 or 07 Grand Prix will be RWD so they will finally be able to put in a trans that can handle over 280tq

05 grand am might be getting AWD and S/C V6

I wouldn't be so quick on that 2006 RWD Grand Prix assumption. :no:

Everything else I think you're dead on.