Is GM in trouble with young buyers?

I was reading a story (http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=coverstory&loc_code=index&content_code=00898261) about the soon-to-be-launched Scion brand for Toyota, and was wondering if GM wasn't in a similar boat themselves to a degree: that being, they are lacking when it comes to attracting young buyers.

Much has been written on here that the F-body found a more mature buying audience (40's) and GM has few if any attractive offerings to the young buyer in a performance enthusiast sense. It's clear the Cavaliers are big sellers (likely a large portion young buyers and I would guess more women) and the Grand Am still seems popular. But I have to feel there are more like myself who strayed over to test new waters because GM didn't have anything to scratch their itch.

I am skeptical of what Toyota is attempting. The idea of offering a countless number of accessories so that each buyer can feel their vehicle is unique is indeed a good one for their mission, but I have to doubt whether that will be enough of a diversion for what is otherwise a 108-hp Toyota Echo. Their next model (http://www.edmunds.com/news/conceptcarspotlight/articles/60658/article.html) seems to be more promising (at least it looks better), but I still wonder if they couldn't have attracted younger buyers by simply introducing a new and exciting model into the Toyota lineup in the same vein that Subaru has gotten new people into showrooms with the WRX. I can see the SRT-4 model for Dodge in the same light. Perhaps the Solstice and its variants will do the same for GM, but if these turn into $30k+ cars (or even high $20ks), I feel they will have missed their mark.

I don't have any statistics to present; this concern is based only on my own experiences (I'm probably the upper end of this category at 24) and how GM seems to be clearly lacking in this arena.

At 31 years old, I am surely out of Scion's target market, but I haven't heard many, if any, good comments about Scion...

At the Cleveland Auto Show, there was little traffic at their display.

Then we get things like Aztek and Element (granted, from other manufacturers) that are supposed to appeal top "Gen Y" (or is it "Gen Z" by now, lol) as well, that are a laughing stocks for the most part... at least as far as their exterior styling goes.

Even decent looking cars, targeted at this group, such as Vibe, seem to hook on with a different age group than anticipated.

Maybe this age group looks at used more than new, and this 'market' is a lot thinner than people believe? :confused:

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Maybe this age group looks at used more than new, and this 'market' is a lot thinner than people believe? :confused:

Good point! Also, young people don't like to be told what's cool, which is why companies pushing things like Scion down their throats isn't going to work IMO. The best way to reach people in the 16-24 age group apparently is to not try to reach them, as silly as it sounds. After all, Honda never marketed its Civic as a sporty, potential performance car. :rolleyes:

Very good points. my whole thoughts all along were everyone in this age bracket looks more at used than new anyway so why aim new cars costing above 15,000 at an age group that can barely afford that price? and on top of that most of the time these type of cars are ugly and slow (i.e. scion, echo).

Seems like a cheap, reliable, fast hatchback or a pickup of some sort is really the right car for most young folks. The Element would have served me well throughout my college days, but I probably would have stuck with my $1800 G20 van and spend $20K on a F-body if I had that kind of dough while going to school. I didn't have that kind of money, which is why a used car is the choice of most college kids.

Let me weigh in with my 2 cents worth.

Why would any car company in its right mind go after an age group (teens, people in their early 20's, pre-college grads) with part-time employment at best? I remember what is was like back then. You really can't afford much by way of cars working part time. I once looked at an early 90's Trans Am when I was in my late teens or early 20's and the insurance alone priced me out of that purchase!

The problem with GM is not so much what can be sold to young people now, but having those vehicles that young people aspire to own when they can afford it. You know, those cars you drooled over when you where young. The ones you may have hung posters up in your room. That is the way to get 'em hooked. But what do you do without cars like Camaros and Firebirds? Corvettes are still around, but they are too expensive for most.

I think GM is doing ok in the youth market. I have a hard time beleiving that Toyota or any brand will really find a nitch in the 16-24 market. Why well most people in this area are high school to college age, early in their driving days, higher insurance, low money, part time job etc. So like I had, used cars fit the bill.

But what the youth wants is what we all want. Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Vette's, Vipers's, Cobra's, F-bodies, Navagators, Escalades, H2's...lowered with 20+ in Spreewells, and a sound system...etc. The poster vehicles In this area yes GM is hurting a bit but no more than any other domestic brand.

The last area and I think what Toyota is looking to hit on is the ricer, modifing craze with low cost vehicles. Of this area I think GM is doing ok again, I don't know why but the Cavalier is selling well! (I like them for cheap point A to B transportation) Right with the Civic. But Ford with the Focus and DCX with the Neon are all doing ok. What I think will hurt Honda and Toyota with the Scion and Element is the butt-ugly looks!

Judging by the reaction of my 15 year old, and the +/- 20 year olds who were at LA's auto show, the Scion is in really, really deep trouble. The reaction was pretty bad (and my 15 year old thought it looked stupid) and this is supposed to be the cool California youth that's supposed to fall for these things 1st!

The youth market is the most unstable of all demographics, being that not only is this group financially unstable (not as individuals, but as a market segment... so don't look at this as a flame), but is the most fickled. As one marketer put it, by the time a model is concieved and gotten to market, tastes have changed in this group, and something else is "cool".

BTW: I suspect 4th gen F-bodies will be very cool very soon.

Why? I'm begining to see alot more on the streets of LA, and I picked up an Auto Trader in San Diego this past weekend. I actually had to dig to find any Z28s that cost more than $20,000.

Given the choice of paying $18,000 for a minimally equpted Honda, or $18,000 for a loaded 2001 or 2002 Z28, I suspect I know the answer. :)


examples: http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=124325563&dealer_id=1236736&car_year=2002&make=CHEV&distance=25&max_price=35000&model=CAM&advcd_on=n&end_year=2004&min_price=10000&first_record=26&address=92138&search_type=used&advanced=n&start_year=1983&=&color=&cardist=7

http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=128067756&dealer_id=&car_year=2001&make=CHEV&distance=25&max_price=35000&model=CAM&advcd_on=n&end_year=2004&min_price=10000&first_record=26&address=92138&search_type=used&advanced=n&start_year=1983&=&color=&cardist=4

Originally posted by guionM

BTW: I suspect 4th gen F-bodies will be very cool very soon.

Why? I'm begining to see alot more on the streets of LA, and I picked up an Auto Trader in San Diego this past weekend. I actually had to dig to find any Z28s that cost more than $20,000.


That is very nice to see. I suspect that 4th gen F-bodies have always had a good level of "coolness" and desireability among the young, it's just that they were considered too unaffordable for those kids. A shame that the market for the F-body may explode now. :(

My problem with GM is that I think there economy based cars are far inferior to the import cars in the same class. As much as I am against Civics, I'd prefer one much more than a Cavelier or Lumina. If GM wants to attract young buyers, they need to improve their economy cars.

The only thing GM has that appeals to me and I could potentially buy would be an S10 Xtreme. I love them, all my friends love them, all their friends love them. Its a shame they never got a blown engine, or Im might have skipped a year of college to buy one! :)

No one likes the Scion lol. I said it before, I dont own a surfboard, nor do I aspire to own a surfboard, so dont tell me how cool this thing is with surfboards on top of it.

Originally posted by Chuck!

I said it before, I dont own a surfboard, nor do I aspire to own a surfboard, so dont tell me how cool this thing is with surfboards on top of it.

Not alot of surf in Ohio?

Anyway, Elements have started to pile up at local Honda stores. The fact that the dealers have piled tons of aftermarket on these vehicles can hardly help. Toyota should take note of this before Scion comes out.

On the other hand, Neons are rare on lots here in Poverty, USA. Between the incentives and massive amounts of standard equipment, these cars are too cheap not to move.

It makes me wonder what would have happened if every Element wasn't a $21K EX w/AWD? Maybe they should have painted those Aztec-style bumbers and kept the price at $18k.

Scion cars were the biggest peices of jusk at the NYC auto show!

That Scion van is so small that only kids could drive it, everyone there basically said the cars were ugly, although I saw one old guy (65+) that like the scion van ( xB or xA who knows and who cares)

I saw a lot of kids around the Xtremes, one even made me take his pic in the truck.

I'm 22 and I would not drive that if they paid me to. :barf:

I honestly feel ALL of the automakers need to address the issue of basically everything being so expensive. It seems like they each have one POS cheap car that they expect to sell to the youth. :rolleyes:

As a young driver I can say F-bodies are definately cool. I love the 4th gens because thats what I grew up with. My Z has everything a younger guy would want: kick ass sound system, big powerful engine, and looks that'll turn girl's heads. The problem is what does GM make now that'll do that? THeres no Camaro around. I really liked the '01, '02 Cavy styling, but the new ones im shaky about. GM needs a F-body, and a 'pocket rocket' aka 4 banger with some speed. A supercharged J-body would be decient. Most of the groups I chill with now are really getting into the Evo vs WRX thing. What happend to Ford vs Chevy? Well no one cares about J-body vs. Focus. :o

or something like this http://www.edmunds.com/news/conceptcarspotlight/articles/55746/article.html
.....
well get rid of that paint job. But with those aftermarket parts pushing 300 horses...... That'd be a nice car. Still not a Camaro though.

That little saturn would be a hot little entry for those in our age group looking for a little pocket rocket but dont want to blend in with the whole civic thing.

I know its been mentioned before on this board but GM should turn Saturn into the Japanese compact fighter. with the right designs and factory backed aftermarket, they could do it. then they could focus most of their attention in making ALL Chevy and Pontiacs QUALITY and not worry about making the J-cars cheapo looking and sticking crapmobiles like the Aveo into a rich historied automaker like Chevrolet

Stick the ecotec turbo 4 (SAAB 9-3 style) in a awd delta Cavi-replacement and you have yourself a kick ass SRT-4 fighter. There GM, I just solved all your youth market problems.

Originally posted by hotrodtodd74
Let me weigh in with my 2 cents worth.

Why would any car company in its right mind go after an age group (teens, people in their early 20's, pre-college grads) with part-time employment at best? I remember what is was like back then. You really can't afford much by way of cars working part time. I once looked at an early 90's Trans Am when I was in my late teens or early 20's and the insurance alone priced me out of that purchase!

The problem with GM is not so much what can be sold to young people now, but having those vehicles that young people aspire to own when they can afford it. You know, those cars you drooled over when you where young. The ones you may have hung posters up in your room. That is the way to get 'em hooked. But what do you do without cars like Camaros and Firebirds? Corvettes are still around, but they are too expensive for most.

Hey--get em young, get em hooked, keep em hooked.

College educated kids outside of the rust belt can't stand any American cars--Hondas are best early; grow up to an Acura or Lexus; finally get to a BMW or Mercedes. American cars have no panache for them. These folks laugh at F-Bodies and Vettes. I don't think Detroit's marketing folks spend nearly enought time among college kids and young adults in Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, LA, Seattle and Portland. If they did, they'd surely see no one wants any of their cars. As this group will one day have lots of income and will probably influence others' buying habits, GM needs to appeal to them.

Among professionals (doctors, lawyers, accoutants--with generally big incomes) I know, except for SUVs, none of them will even consider an American car.

Something is definitely wrong.

...not just young buyers ... ALL BUYERS ... outside of the Corvette, which I can't afford ... there isn't a "gotta have" vehicle in the GM line-up. They offer discounted appliances. :rolleyes:

From what we've seen of the future so far, I'm not holding out a lot of hope that things will change enough.

Possum ... you'll like the following comment from

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_why_toyota_wants_2/


Quote
- - - - - - - - -

Bob Lutz is another aging GM executive who's skeptical about Scion.

“The worst thing you can do is design a car for young people, and say, ‘You're going to like it because we designed it for you,” says Lutz, 70, vice-chairman for GM's product development and unofficially dubbed the auto maker's “product czar.”

“I may be wrong and Toyota may be right,” he says. “But you need to design vehicles that are universally attractive. You make strong vehicles attractively priced for young people. That's the recipe.”

- - - - - - - - - end of quote

I'll take the guionM approach to this ... I ask my oldest kid ... my 13 year old can't shut up about Subaru's (WRX STi Type RA, Spec C) and Sony Playstation (SOCOM), but he refers to the Scion as "a dorkey loser mobile" I think that implies that he doesn't approve.

Marketing to generation Y is like herding cats ...

Ted

Companies are trying too hard to make cars that will appeal to us (us collective for my generation). They need to take a step back and look at the **** comming out of the design room, would they have driven it as a kid? If yes, then produce it. If no, then start over. Jesus christ its not like we're from Mars. They could stand to do some market research at conservative colleges in the midwest to counterbalance all the **** they hear in California.

Originally posted by Ted 99 TA WS6 Conv
...Bob Lutz is another aging GM executive who's skeptical about Scion.

“The worst thing you can do is design a car for young people, and say, ‘You're going to like it because we designed it for you,” says Lutz, 70, vice-chairman for GM's product development and unofficially dubbed the auto maker's “product czar.”

“I may be wrong and Toyota may be right,” he says. “But you need to design vehicles that are universally attractive. You make strong vehicles attractively priced for young people. That's the recipe.”

I'll take the guionM approach to this ... I ask my oldest kid ... my 13 year old can't shut up about Subaru's (WRX STi Type RA, Spec C) and Sony Playstation (SOCOM), but he refers to the Scion as "a dorkey loser mobile" I think that implies that he doesn't approve.

Marketing to generation Y is like herding cats ...

Ted

My kid's 4th gen Camaro crazy right now ever since my sister offered to give him her 97 black 5 speed as a graduation gift (no sh*t: she is planning to get one of the 1st Camaros...with t-tops...when it returns), and according to him, he is by no means the only one heavily into 4th gens!!!.Another reason I think 4th gen Camaros will soon be the "in" thing. :thumb:

Cars my kid loved: the Mustang Mach1, a decked out (or riced out, depending on your point of view) Pontiac Sunfire, the Corvette, the Escalade :shock:, the Magnum wagon :shock: :shock:, and finally, the Grand Am GT, and the normal assortment of aftermarket thingys downstairs.

Bob Lutz is right on this, youth aren't going to buy something simply because it's marketed to them. Besides FWD and 4 cylinder engines, today's youth want the same thing us older folks and our parents wanted when we were young. A low cost, good looking car that we can upgrade to our own tastes & budget. Whether it's custom paint, wheels, stereo upgrades, engine or chassis upgrades, or all the above.

A breadbox on wheels ain't it.

I'm 23 and Most people my age and younger lover all the new Caddies:bow: H2 is VERY popular too, At the NYC auto show this past weekend Hummer was probably the post popular brand , and they even had 2 displays (one with the trucks and one with the cars)

The problem is all the cars kids think are cool are expensive.

The only cheaper ride that 15-24 people seem to like a lot is the Xtreme I hope the Colorado sport does just as good (Colorado Xtreme would have been a better name)

Cars we like:
F-bodies: awesome, just they don't make them anymore :mad:
Grand Am: ok styling, needs a better motor
J-Bodies: 2002 styling right on, just needed some more power, what happend in 2003?
Caddies: pretty cool, but we have no hope of affording them anytime soon
S-10: seems to be the civic of trucks ( no offense meant, just very popular)
Anything else? Not really.

Originally posted by CamaroRSguy
Cars we like:

J-Bodies: 2002 styling right on, just needed some more power, what happend in 2003? .


?? clarification needed :confused:

Originally posted by stik6shift98
?? clarification needed :confused:

I may be wrong, but Cavalier was also supposed to get a blower on it's ecotec engine, but I think it's postponed till the replacement comes out.

By the styling, I was talking about the nice wheels, small non-ricey spoiler, good looking stock ground effects. They looked great in yellow and black in my opinion, all they needed was the blower GM kept mentioning. I know they came out with a 2.4 litre supercharger that ads 40 horses, but why do they only use 2.2 now.....

Ecotec needs a damn turbo, not an sc. I dont care what the mechanical reasoning behind the sc is, the market demands a turbo. I dont understand why GM is so afraid to grasp that.

S/C, turbo, whatever GM is willing to make as long as the J-body or any GM "import fighter" breaks 220 HP with a 4 banger.