Just looked over a new GTP carefully...

... and this might be the cleanest/best body build I have ever seen on a 1st year car.

Absolutely terrific. Great gaps and flushes, clean design, and a VERY GOOD matchup between the rear bumper cover and the rear quarters (a place where Corvettes stumble a little bit - this GTP is the best I've ever seen in production).

Excellent work by the General.

And you thought all I did was b!tch...

I sat in one the other day at the Caddilac dealership. You know, it didn't look too out of place there. This minor refreshing made a major improvement. I hated the interior when I saw it in magazines, but in person it looks pretty good. It's amazing how everything looks better in person.

I saw one for the first time on the road last week. It was a black GTP. Very sharp. I love the exhaust pipes on them. I caught a light with the guy and gave him a thumbs up. He smiled and gave me a nod. It thought about having a little fun and seeing if he would run it. But then I remembered how there would be no contest. And I imagine he wouldn’t want to race his brand new car. Oh well still looked great.

They are surprisingly quick and agile too. I have to admit that I was impressed by one recently in an autoX event. The car sounded bizarre while winding up, but it handled fantastically. The GTP is a very well-rounded car IMO, with good interior layout and construction to boot.

Me Likey - :bow:

I recently saw a $30,400 2004 GTP. Yikes!

It's no wonder that GM is still selling massive numbers of overpriced trucks and SUVs. When everyday sedans have become this pricey, you might as well cough up the extra for a vehicle with some size and style. As it is, the Grand Prix just advances the same game Pontiac was playing in the 1990s. Here's a car that's too big to be an import slayer, too expensive, but too small inside to be trully spacious.

Of course, a $30k GTP is a far better deal than the similarly priced "Jeff Gordon Edition" Monte Carlo. However, it just seems overprice and out of place in todays market. Why not buy a faster and cheaper Altima V6 with a stick? If Pontiac had a product like that, they might just have a shot at being a BMW competitor.

It makes me hope that the new Grand Am won't drop the ball like its big brother. Sure, the massive price increases on the now-aging Grand Am GT worry me. That aside, the Grand Am has had the style and proportions of a genine import fighter. Engine and soundproofing aside, the '99 vintage Grand Am is still the only Pontiac I would ever consider.

Originally posted by redzed
Why not buy a faster and cheaper Altima V6 with a stick?

Stick? Yes.

Faster? Not really.

I've found 0-60 (if that's how you want to measure)

2003 Altima V6: 6.83sec
2004 GTP: 6.6sec

In response to redzed's comments about pricing, the domestic manufacturers are trying to "price in" some of the massive rebates they've been shelling out in an effort to minimize the effect on the bottom line. I think if you look at actual transaction prices on these vehicles, you'll see they've actually gone down in the last few years.

If I'm not mistaken, the price of an average new vehicle is pushing $29,000 anyway, so a loaded $30,000 GTP Grand Prix isn't bad.

You do know Bonnevilles & LeSabres generally go for $32,000 & Buick Park Avenues are over $40,000, and those aren't loaded. Even upper end Crown Victorias can reach into the low $30,000 range.

See, I told you all those $25,000 Camaro Z28s spoiled us! :thumb:

The new Grand Prix represents a new direction for Pontiac and GM. Instead of following what the competition or what GM did in the past models the engineering and design teams went on their own way. Its an idea that GM doesn't need to follow Honda and Toyota in quality, Ford in practicallity, Chrysler in innovation, and GM's past for style. They wipped the sheet as clean as possible and began to lay out just what was needed and what had to be included for the cost. I remember meetings where the "old guard" tried to keep the car one way or another, but the styling people and fun loving engineers won out with the blessing of top GM brass. Yea even before Bob Lutz had an office, GM's top engineering and design people were getting to let loose a little. Basicly send the bean counters a bill when the car's layout and design is done! Oversimlified but worht making the point. While this may seem simple and straight forward to most, and it is, but thats not how GM has designed cars in the past.

I'm glad you like it and I stood by my point that you have to see and experience the car in person before passing judgements. Its a sign of things to come from GM and I think you all will like what eventually follows. This car didn't get a lot of press and hasn't made the splash that many at GM hoped it would but the reviews are still good and GM will sell everyone they make.

Originally posted by 99SilverSS
The new Grand Prix represents a new direction for Pontiac and GM. Instead of following what the competition or what GM did in the past models the engineering and design teams went on their own way. Its an idea that GM doesn't need to follow Honda and Toyota in quality, Ford in practicallity, Chrysler in innovation, and GM's past for style. They wipped the sheet as clean as possible and began to lay out just what was needed and what had to be included for the cost. I remember meetings where the "old guard" tried to keep the car one way or another, but the styling people and fun loving engineers won out with the blessing of top GM brass. Yea even before Bob Lutz had an office, GM's top engineering and design people were getting to let loose a little. Basicly send the bean counters a bill when the car's layout and design is done! Oversimlified but worht making the point. While this may seem simple and straight forward to most, and it is, but thats not how GM has designed cars in the past.

I'm glad you like it and I stood by my point that you have to see and experience the car in person before passing judgements. Its a sign of things to come from GM and I think you all will like what eventually follows. This car didn't get a lot of press and hasn't made the splash that many at GM hoped it would but the reviews are still good and GM will sell everyone they make.

I can't believe that the Grand Prix represents anything more than a cheap rebody on the W-platform. If the new direction is more of the same, but delete the body cladding, that isn't enough. However, if the point of a new Pontiac is just to keep current Pontiac buyers, this philosophy might just work. Now that I've seen the 2004, I don't know what the fuss is over. Interestingly, my local dealer hasn't sold a single one yet. He's building up a small row of the things, and it'll be interesting to see if his Grand inventory stock gets as large as his massive stockpile of LeSabres and Centuries.

We should remember that new sedan introductions are pretty much irrelevant to masses of carbuyers who aren't GM devotees. While I come from a loyal GM household, even I don't much care about the new crop of boring FWD passenger cars. A supercharged Impala SS is no more interesting than the Buick Regal GS was in 1997. Similarly, the 2004 Malibu doesn't really matter to anyone aside from the fleet buyers at Alamo.

The automotive market has moved on.:cry:

Originally posted by redzed
I can't believe that the Grand Prix represents anything more than a cheap rebody on the W-platform. If the new direction is more of the same, but delete the body cladding, that isn't enough.


Believe it.... THe new grand prix is over 80% new according to GM, I'm sure most of that 20% is the engines and trans. THe interior is great in these cars. Oh... and a base 2004 GTP is cheaper than the 2003.

My friend Pat finally went 13.9 @ 98 with a smaller blower pulley, SLP exhaust, and a cold air intake. Definitely faster than I expected!

I can't believe that the Grand Prix represents anything more than a cheap rebody on the W-platform.

right on! it may be 80% new but it's hardly as *exciting* as what the imports are making... frankly it still looks dated minus the headlights obviously "inspired" by the *** cars

Everything I've heard on the '04 Grand Prix has been positive, except for the price. $30K is pushing dangerously close to the Acura CL/TL, and I frankly just don't see the GTP being as nice of a car. The General might surprise me on this one, though - and if so, great for them.

Originally posted by l_bilyk
right on! it may be 80% new but it's hardly as *exciting* as what the imports are making... frankly it still looks dated minus the headlights obviously "inspired" by the *** cars

What makes a new Altima (or enter any car in the GTP's class from Japan...) more exciting than a new GTP?

well the altima is probably a class below the GTP
but the maxima costs about the same and it's arguably a much better car in alot of respects

Originally posted by l_bilyk
well the altima is probably a class below the GTP
but the maxima costs about the same and it's arguably a much better car in alot of respects


Maxima cost are not even close to the Grand Prix

base Maxima $29,440
loaded Maxima $34,790

base Grand Prix $21,760
loaded Grand Prix $29,305

both cars are 2004's, prices are from cars.com

Originally posted by Z28x
Maxima cost are not even close to the Grand Prix

base Maxima $29,440
loaded Maxima $34,790

base Grand Prix $21,760
loaded Grand Prix $29,305

both cars are 2004's, prices are from cars.com

Another demonstration of how illusion sometimes wins over reality?? :think:

Originally posted by l_bilyk
well the altima is probably a class below the GTP
but the maxima costs about the same and it's arguably a much better car in alot of respects

The Altima is (finally) a pretty well focused "Camry/Accord-class" competitor. The Maxima is kind of a question mark, but it undeniably is above the Grand Prix in pricing and market focus. If you think of the Maxima as more of an Infiniti I35 these days, you probably have the right idea.

Where does that leave the Grand Prix? My best guess is somewhere in what's left of the traditional domestic market. "Mid-sized" these days is normally defined by the Japanese - something Ford is finally realizing with its Mazda-6 based Taurus replacement.

Dude I have seen so many chicks driving GTP's i dunno how i feel about them anymore...

Originally posted by Z28x
Maxima cost are not even close to the Grand Prix

base Maxima $29,440
loaded Maxima $34,790

base Grand Prix $21,760
loaded Grand Prix $29,305

both cars are 2004's, prices are from cars.com

But does the base GP come with the 260hp S/c 3.8? The base maxima has the same 265hp as the fully loaded one. That calls for the big price difference between the 2 base models.

I guess the price varies from site to site or something. Carpoint.com has the 2003 Maxima's price at $24,899 to 27,549 and the 2004's at $26,950 to $28,900.
http://autos.msn.com/vip/newoverview.aspx?make=Nissan&model=Maxima&src=LeftNav&pos=Find

Originally posted by stik6shift98
Dude I have seen so many chicks driving GTP's i dunno how i feel about them anymore...

What the HELL is that supposed to mean? Who cares?!?!??! Around here, there's almost as many women driving F bods as men...does that mean I should "feel" differently about them? Gimme a break...

Back on topic, while I haven't had a new GTP in stock yet, I have driven a new GT2...damn, its a nice car :)

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
[B]But does the base GP come with the 260hp S/c 3.8? The base maxima has the same 265hp as the fully loaded one. That calls for the big price difference between the 2 base models.


The base GTP is $26,495.

While I myself would want the 260HP GTP you must remember that not everyone is as performance oriented as us. Obviously there is a lot of people that prefer the 200HP 230tq V6 otherwise they wouldn't make it. Plus the base GT1 is about $4,000 cheaper than the base GTP, there are more people that shop by price rather than HP

Darth i was kinda wondering the same thing as you: what makes the new Maxima, Altima so "exciting"???

At least the new Grand Prix has some aggressivness to it. the slanted headlights and twin pontiac grills look bada$$ in my opinion and the body resembles more of a coupe than a sedan. plus the GTP is pretty quick as well.

I'm sorry but all i see in the Accord, Camry, Maxima, Altima, etc. are "grandma cars". yes they have decent powerplants but damn, they look so BORING. not saying the domestic sedans look any better but if i had the cash and the need for a 4 door, I would easily take the Grand Prix or CTS over those cars anyday.

Just my .02 :)

Originally posted by redzed
my local dealer hasn't sold a single one yet. He's building up a small row of the things

You're assuming that your dealer is competent and knowledgeable. I can remember the same line about the 4th gens "we haven't moved a single one yet." You ever hear from Jason E in MA, though? He successfully sold like 1000 percent more than any of his competing dealers because he knew what he was doing.

my point is that the 04 GP won't suffer from one or two under-achiever dealers. It's destined to succeed regardless.

gt

I drove a GTP coupe in 2001 for a day, and it was blazingly quick over what I expected, and was all round, a nice car. Anyone drive the new one yet? How does it compare?

Not intersted in buying one, just curious. :)

GuionM, my gf just got a 2001 GTP, its a real nice car. It is very agile, the steering wheel turns so easy, its got speed when you need it, and a nice interior.

Originally posted by SFireGT98
Darth i was kinda wondering the same thing as you: what makes the new Maxima, Altima so "exciting"???

At least the new Grand Prix has some aggressivness to it. the slanted headlights and twin pontiac grills look bada$$ in my opinion and the body resembles more of a coupe than a sedan. plus the GTP is pretty quick as well.

I'm sorry but all i see in the Accord, Camry, Maxima, Altima, etc. are "grandma cars". yes they have decent powerplants but damn, they look so BORING. not saying the domestic sedans look any better but if i had the cash and the need for a 4 door, I would easily take the Grand Prix or CTS over those cars anyday.

Just my .02 :) both come with a stick.:metal:

Wow :rolleyes:
:D j/k, actually that is nice, but those paddle shifters on the Grand Prix are tight!

Originally posted by guionM
If I'm not mistaken, the price of an average new vehicle is pushing $29,000 anyway, so a loaded $30,000 GTP Grand Prix isn't bad.

You do know Bonnevilles & LeSabres generally go for $32,000 & Buick Park Avenues are over $40,000, and those aren't loaded. Even upper end Crown Victorias can reach into the low $30,000 range.

See, I told you all those $25,000 Camaro Z28s spoiled us! :thumb:

:eek:

Good grief! Cars must be alot more expensive everywhere else in the country! I've seen base Grand Prix's here for less than $20k.

Originally posted by stik6shift98
Dude I have seen so many chicks driving GTP's i dunno how i feel about them anymore...

The latest 2004 GP ad features a blind woman driving a GTP. Kudos for GM for marketing to visually impaired drivers.:rolleyes:

I didn't think the Grand Prix looked that bad.:eek:

Originally posted by redzed
The latest 2004 GP ad features a blind woman driving a GTP. Kudos for GM for marketing to visually impaired drivers.:rolleyes:

I didn't think the Grand Prix looked that bad.:eek:


Marketing Line... "Fuel For The Soul"

The guy took his friend or girlfriend out into an open area, and let her drive the car around, something I'm sure would be a thrill to the blind woman.

The car was getting thrown around giving the impression of a professional driver having fun with the car and showing what it can do... then you see a person who is blind get out and smile.

It has a deeper meaning... some ads are actually done well enough to invoke actual thought in some people.

redzed, If you read what I wrote the new GP isn't much different to the car buyer but different in its conception at GM. For many of you GM loyalists or GM unfaithful or skeptics you'd be suprised at the amount of bling GM rules that keep certain styles and designs from being implimented. But the days of the bean-counters rule isn't ending but their control over design is being pulled back. So while the new GP looks and feels like any other GM W-car, its really what you don't know thats changed. Look for more consumer oriented changes in the years ahead. GM is like a huge oil tanker trying to change directions, it takes miles to do so.

And to many of you comparng the Nissan Altima or Maxima to the GP, well try and tell me somthing measurable thats not opinion or personal taste oriented into what makes those cars better....??
-good luck! ;)

Originally posted by 99SilverSS
redzed, If you read what I wrote the new GP isn't much different to the car buyer but different in its conception at GM. For many of you GM loyalists or GM unfaithful or skeptics you'd be suprised at the amount of bling GM rules that keep certain styles and designs from being implimented. But the days of the bean-counters rule isn't ending but their control over design is being pulled back. So while the new GP looks and feels like any other GM W-car, its really what you don't know thats changed. Look for more consumer oriented changes in the years ahead. GM is like a huge oil tanker trying to change directions, it takes miles to do so.

And to many of you comparng the Nissan Altima or Maxima to the GP, well try and tell me somthing measurable thats not opinion or personal taste oriented into what makes those cars better....??
-good luck! ;)

I look back on the GM of a decade ago - the bad old days? - and the products had alot more going for them. They had renewed the B and F-body, both great cars, and Cadillac was breaking its long malaise with the Northstar engine. The future looked bright.

Today, GM has backed away from safety and innovation. GM set a new standard for safety in 1991 when the Caprice premiered with high-quality Bosch ABS. Look at the products of today, and Stabilitrak is limited to a handful of high-end cars, just at a time when stability control systems are becoming pervasive in Europe. Even ABS has now become optional for many GM carlines, a far cry from a decade ago when it was becoming standard equipment. However, the greatest sign of stagnation is the fact that the 2000 DeVille was the last Cadillac to offer a trully new feature - infrared night vision. Considering the DeVille is the last of the "old style" Caddys, this doesn't say much about the "power of design and engineering."

The reason why people herald products like the Altima is because they indicate the rebirth of Nissan, a company that was on the rocks a short while ago. GM can brag about cost-cutting and new-efficiency, but it isn't showing up in the product. They're giving us more of the same, as shown by the 2004 Malibu and Grand Prix, while everyone else is moving up in performance and design.