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Old 11-14-2002, 07:29 PM   #1
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Older 350 CI into 93-95 Camaro swap...

Anybody ever put a 350C.I. motor in a 93-95 Camaro? And if so what is involved in the swap as far as *cough* custom additions, and difficulty. etc.

IMO it would be these 4 problems involved:

#1 fit of engine in shorter engine bay
#2 motor mounts
#3 Transmission mounts when a turbo 350/400 is used
#4 Ignition Computer problems

I would remove all computer related stuff except for ignition and instrument gauges, I DO NOT WANT A COMP CONTROLLED SMALL BLOCK. I'm shooting for ease of repair and reliabiltiy here as well as a tad more "punch" with this swap.


-Rabid


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Old 11-14-2002, 11:14 PM   #2
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why don't you swap to an LS1 since you want to do a swap? the swap of the LS1 is stright forward and there is very minor modification to the A/C lines otherwise it is straight forward and i assume the LS1 will make more power since the stock LS1 heads can flow 310+ cfm when ported (stage 2).

conversion from LT1 to LS1 :

1- You can use the earlier transmission with a special flywheel and adapter from GM.

2- You have to use the 98-02 front crossmember and engine mounts

3- Use the 94 transmission crossmember.

4- The LS1 engine harness will have to be modified so it will mate up to your existing engine compartment and interior harnesses. If you get a
99-02 engine, you will have to run a second set of sensors in the engine to
run the gauges.

5- Any 98-02mods will work, the frame of the car didnt change.

6- I dont carry custom harnesses. Check my Links page for companies
that do.

7- Any 93-02 f-body radiator will fit.

8- Any 93-02 dual fans will work.

9- The ABS, fuel pump and lines all work. You will have to modify the
A/C lines.

Mark Whitley www.hpsalvage.com
mark@hpsalvage.com 210-649-2554
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Old 11-14-2002, 11:47 PM   #3
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Re: Older 350 CI into 93-95 Camaro swap...

Quote:
Originally posted by RabidDog24
Anybody ever put a 350C.I. motor in a 93-95 Camaro? And if so what is involved in the swap as far as *cough* custom additions, and difficulty. etc.

IMO it would be these 4 problems involved:

#1 fit of engine in shorter engine bay
#2 motor mounts
#3 Transmission mounts when a turbo 350/400 is used
#4 Ignition Computer problems

I would remove all computer related stuff except for ignition and instrument gauges, I DO NOT WANT A COMP CONTROLLED SMALL BLOCK. I'm shooting for ease of repair and reliabiltiy here as well as a tad more "punch" with this swap.


-Rabid
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#1 & #2. It's the same engine, just different. A sbc well bolt in.
It is tight around the distibiter
#3. BMR sells a trans adapter mount.
#4 Bypass the VATS, don't know about oem gauges.
How you going to get this thru emmisions?
For ease of repair, reliability and "punch" I would keep the LT1, far superior to the old sbc
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Old 11-15-2002, 11:29 AM   #4
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Re: Re: Older 350 CI into 93-95 Camaro swap...

Abdullah:

#1 This car does not have a motor, and I do not want a late model engine (yes even a LS1 ). I have the motor I want to go into the car already, as well as all the parts to finish except for any adapters that would be needed. So why go through extra expense and trouble to buy a motor I have no knowledge of, and waste my "built to the huilt" (sp?) 350?? As I said before I do not want any computer controlled aspects on this motor. The only "computer" control this car will see is "maybe" a add-on Edelbrock MPFI kit.

#2 I appreciate the help but this is a vary! specific project, and im a bit "set-in-my-ways". But mucho thanks anyway d00d.


Steve:

Thanks for a very informative post.

#1 & #2 So I guess a low profile HEI distributer would be the answer to that then, which is great because I ahve 2 of them.

#3 I've never heard of BMR can you/someone throw me a link to them or a address/phone number for a catalog?

#4 Hmm bypass the VATS, Any tech articles or links to this process? Any info would be GREATLY appreciated on this and the above.

"How are you going to get this thing through emissions?"

Simple, I live in Tennessee. The only emissions testing we have is if the neighbors complain about the smell of our cows at night.

And like I said I can't keep a LT1 I don't already have/want. This seems to be a much better board than some I've found. Thanks again guys, really

-Rabid

Last edited by RabidDog24; 11-15-2002 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 11-15-2002, 12:54 PM   #5
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Since you already have the "built to the hilt" engine, and you apparently already have a body without an engine, it might be helpful if you provide the details of the engine and the body. The issue with the distributor has already been touched on.... hood clearance with some carb/manifold combo's can be a problem.

And, which body you start out with will determine in part what you can do as far as maintaining the non-engine related features of the computer. If you start with a V8 chassis, the PCM will likely not be suitable, and you will need alternative interfaces for the fuel pump, speedo and tach (no other dash gauges use the computer). With a V6 chassis/computer, the interface requirements will be different. And, what "accessories" do you plan to use.... A/C, power steering? The cooling systems are also different between the V8 and V6 chassis. Possibly some K-member issues.

You can mount a TH400 with a modified 4th Gen T56 trans cross-member. If you want info on BMR:

BMR FABRICATIONS
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94 Formula A3+1: 381ci all-forged stroker - Callies Stealth, Oliver 5.85 billet rods, BME nitrous pistons / CNC LT4 heads / Comp Cams custom solid roller / TH400 + GearVendors OD / Strange 12-bolt - 4.11's / 300-shot N2O / Spohn suspension / 6-pt roll bar with integrated SFC's / AutoMeter instrumentation / MoTeC M48Pro engine management system / a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP/800LB-FT at the flywheel.
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Old 11-15-2002, 02:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Injuneer
Since you already have the "built to the hilt" engine, and you apparently already have a body without an engine, it might be helpful if you provide the details of the engine and the body. The issue with the distributor has already been touched on.... hood clearance with some carb/manifold combo's can be a problem.
1994 Camaro V6 chassis w/ a 1978 350 C.I. 350 Engine w/ Turbo 400 transmission, that is ready to be dropped in anytime.

Yeah, I've heard about the clearance issue, and I'd be getting a induction or cowl hood anyway, so that's no biggie. And the low profile mallery distributer I have would solve the other one.

Quote:
And, which body you start out with will determine in part what you can do as far as maintaining the non-engine related features of the computer. If you start with a V8 chassis, the PCM will likely not be suitable, and you will need alternative interfaces for the fuel pump, speedo and tach (no other dash gauges use the computer). With a V6 chassis/computer, the interface requirements will be different. And, what "accessories" do you plan to use.... A/C, power steering? The cooling systems are also different between the V8 and V6 chassis. Possibly some K-member issues.
Well looks like the speedo and tach will have to be modified to work with a cable then. As I'm not going to go to the trouble/expense of finding a V8 and snagging it's computer and wiring. As for the fuel pump it will be no longer needed as I will run a fuel line to the mech. pump on the block. And cooling is no problem either, as I'll just use a slimline radiator and the hoses and waterpump that the 350 uses now. (currently in a third gen).

I'm not sure why it matters what accessories I would be using but, no A/C but yes obviously P/S.

Also, these "k" member issues your talking about would they be with the oilpan?

-RAbid

Last edited by RabidDog24; 11-15-2002 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 11-15-2002, 04:10 PM   #7
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I have swapped a carb'd sbc into a '95 camaro and can say that its a major PITA. The cowl area forward and below the windshield needs to be cut away for dist. and air cleaner clearance,even with a low profile unit. The wiper mechanism will get in the way of the dist. and will need to be removed. The power steering hoses will need to be custom made. The alternator may interfere with the hood and will need a custom made mount, etc. After its all done you will not good access to the dist. cap, and should you have to pull the dist. out for any reason, you will get to do it by removing it in conjuntion with the intake manifold.
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Old 11-15-2002, 09:48 PM   #8
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I also am doing the switch but am waiting for it to get warm again.

I already have all my goods to go. I will be running a crank trigger with a crab style MSD low profile distributer. The area of cowl in front of the windsheild is already set to go with a plate that can be taken out by some bolts.

As for the speedo i will be running a th400 but will have a VSS from a 4L80E but i am not sure if it will work since i am changing the first and second gears in the tranny.

I will be running a TBI fuel pump. I will fit in the stock tank and all the lines are the same it just puts out a lower PSI that a regulator can stand.

I am keeping the stock charging system and i am still not sure if the stock LT1 access bracket will fit with an old school block but my guesses are it will. I already have notched valve covers so i cannot see what other problems there will be just yet.

My vats is already bypassed, the stock gauges will all work except for the voltage if you wire them in directly.

I am sure i will run into some snags but any custom work is my specialty so i am just waiting for the warmth.
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Old 11-16-2002, 02:12 PM   #9
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So: (yes more questions )

#1 What engine mounts will I need for the swap?
#2 Is there any oilpan/crossmember clearance problems?
#3 How do you rig the shifter on the TH-400 to work with the Camaro's stock shifter? Or do you?
#4 Can I use a driveshaft from one of my thirdgens, and will it bolt up to the newer rear end?

Oh and anyone else who has done the swap, did you have alternator/wiper motor problems?

And I have a 94, do these exist in the 93/94's?

Ive done a 6 banger to 350 conversion in one of my third gens, and THAT was a major PITA. Mostly because I was rushing to do it, and jury rigged everything instead of slowing down and doing it right. Not saying thats the usual with conversions like this, but I think if I take my time and do it right, the end results will be worth all the effort!

Oh and LJ93Z28GM:

How did you make that access plate for the distributer? and did you have wiper motor problems?

-Rabid
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Old 11-16-2002, 02:15 PM   #10
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LJ93Z28GM:

Oh and one more question, could you post a pic of the area that you cutout for the dissy?

thanks,
-Rabid
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Old 11-16-2002, 06:31 PM   #11
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Sorry but no digi cam. The plate is pretty much a matching piece to what i cut out of the cowl area. It is just about 2 inches longer so that it overlaps where i bolt it up. the only time you use it is if you have to redrop the dist.
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Old 11-17-2002, 02:21 PM   #12
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Oh well,

Anybody have any answers to the post three up from here?

-Rabid
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Old 11-17-2002, 10:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by RabidDog24

#1 What engine mounts will I need for the swap?
I don't know the answers for sure, but you seem to be struggling here..... The LT1 mounts are NOT the same as a "standard" SBC mount. You will need something other than stock, but I don't know what it is. I know a guy that just put a Dart block in a 4th Gen F-Body... I'll see if he can tell me what he used.

Quote:
#2 Is there any oilpan/crossmember clearance problems?
Again, the LT1 oil pan is a unique shape. On top of that I am pretty sure the V6 chassis k-member is different than the V8 chassis k-member.... do not know for sure though. The person referenced above has a PA racing tubular k-member. I would suspect that you are going to have an interference with a Gen I SBC in a V6 4th Gen chassis.

Quote:
#3 How do you rig the shifter on the TH-400 to work with the Camaro's stock shifter? Or do you?
What kind of TH400 are you using? I have a TH400 behind an LT1 in a 4th Gen, but I use a manual valve body and a B&M Pro-Ratchet shifter. That will fit on the tunnel of the 4th Gen, and I have it mounted in the stock M6 console. I have no idea what version of a shifter they used in the V6 chassis.... in the V8 chassis there are two different versions of the A4 shifter, depending on whether you bought a "preformance axle" option that got you a selectable 1st gear.

You also have to address the issue of the front torque arm mount. The 4th Gen mounts the TA to the tailshaft of the tranny. With a TH400, you either need to get an adapter, or go to an aftermarket TA that mounts to the "g-load" tranny tunnel brace.


Quote:
#4 Can I use a driveshaft from one of my thirdgens, and will it bolt up to the newer rear end?
The 3rd Gen V8, the 4th Gen V8 and the 4th Gen V6 all used the same length DS. The V6 DS was a two piece with center bearing/support. The TH400 is a little longer than the stock 4th Gen 4L60E, so you generally need a shorter DS. You will also need a DS with the TH400 yoke on it. At the back end, the 4th Gen 10-bolt uses a 1310 u-joint. But if you have any decent HP, a 10-bolt isn't going to last very long. And, the V6 typically has an open diff, with drum brakes, while a V8 chassis would have a Posi and disc brakes.

One thing that makes these questions hard to answer, particularly 3 & 4 is the lack of details. If you have some sort of extremely high HP engine, you may be using a manual shift TH400, and you may need a better than stock DS just to handle the HP. You will probably need something better than a 10-bolt rear axle assembly.

Like I said, I don't KNOW the answers..... I never did the swap.

Fred
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Old 11-18-2002, 12:31 PM   #14
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The V6 and V8 crossmembers are in fact different.

My biggest concern would be what about all of the other stuff like lights, turn signals, and most importanly abs brakes. How is this stuff going to work without the computer and harnesses? Might want to think this out a little more and i am going to say there are going to be many things you have not accounted for yet.
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Old 11-18-2002, 04:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by 94-3.4
The V6 and V8 crossmembers are in fact different.

My biggest concern would be what about all of the other stuff like lights, turn signals, and most importanly abs brakes. How is this stuff going to work without the computer and harnesses? Might want to think this out a little more and i am going to say there are going to be many things you have not accounted for yet.
LoL,
I didn't say I wanted to totally remove the computer, just remove the computer engine controls from the "equation". besides,the computer does not control the headlights and turnsignals, those are (as anyone will tell you) simple on/off device controlled. And as for ABS brakes, well like I said, the comp will still be there. And I'm not even sure ABS is computer controlled anyway. Of course there are things I have not accounted for, thats the way with any swap. Minor/Major annoyances are par-4-tha-course.

Quote:
I don't know the answers for sure, but you seem to be struggling here..... The LT1 mounts are NOT the same as a "standard" SBC mount. You will need something other than stock, but I don't know what it is. I know a guy that just put a Dart block in a 4th Gen F-Body... I'll see if he can tell me what he used.
#1 Yes, I noticed that last night, one of my firends showed me the underhood area of his 93 V6, it seems the engine mounts are like large "triangles" for lack of a better word, that bolt up to the block. If BMR sells the K-Member maybe they sell block adapters as well?

Quote:
Again, the LT1 oil pan is a unique shape. On top of that I am pretty sure the V6 chassis k-member is different than the V8 chassis k-member.... do not know for sure though. The person referenced above has a PA racing tubular k-member. I would suspect that you are going to have an interference with a Gen I SBC in a V6 4th Gen chassis.
#2 I have figured as much, and I have seen the replacement K-member on BMR's site. But looks like I might swap my V6 car for a V8 chassis car seems like it might be a "tad" easier, lol. But if I cant, I'll just swap the crossmember for the tubular one. But I would prefer to be as "Stock" as possible (hence less maintenance/more reliability)

Quote:
What kind of TH400 are you using? I have a TH400 behind an LT1 in a 4th Gen, but I use a manual valve body and a B&M Pro-Ratchet shifter. That will fit on the tunnel of the 4th Gen, and I have it mounted in the stock M6 console. I have no idea what version of a shifter they used in the V6 chassis.... in the V8 chassis there are two different versions of the A4 shifter, depending on whether you bought a "preformance axle" option that got you a selectable 1st gear.

You also have to address the issue of the front torque arm mount. The 4th Gen mounts the TA to the tailshaft of the tranny. With a TH400, you either need to get an adapter, or go to an aftermarket TA that mounts to the "g-load" tranny tunnel brace.
#3 Well, I do like the look of the "hammer" B&M shifters, and I've put a B&M on my thirdgen, (talk about a PITA ). If the Pro-Ratchet fits will the hammer fit as well? Wouldn't I have to hack and slash the console? That I do not want.

This is just a "stock" 400, so maybe I could have a shifter plate machined to adapt the stock shifter cable to the new transmission? Therefore cancelling the need for a new shifter.

And yes I'll be buying the adapter for the transmission.

Quote:
The 3rd Gen V8, the 4th Gen V8 and the 4th Gen V6 all used the same length DS. The V6 DS was a two piece with center bearing/support. The TH400 is a little longer than the stock 4th Gen 4L60E, so you generally need a shorter DS. You will also need a DS with the TH400 yoke on it. At the back end, the 4th Gen 10-bolt uses a 1310 u-joint. But if you have any decent HP, a 10-bolt isn't going to last very long. And, the V6 typically has an open diff, with drum brakes, while a V8 chassis would have a Posi and disc brakes.

One thing that makes these questions hard to answer, particularly 3 & 4 is the lack of details. If you have some sort of extremely high HP engine, you may be using a manual shift TH400, and you may need a better than stock DS just to handle the HP. You will probably need something better than a 10-bolt rear axle assembly.

Like I said, I don't KNOW the answers..... I never did the swap.

Fred
#4 Well this engine is not high on the "HP" side just mostly purty and reliable, and like I said above, Ive done the V6 to V8 swap to a TH400 so I already have the driveshaft cut and ready I suspect, esp. If I use the same transmission. And I haven't cut out the possibility of replacing the rear end. If the gear stinks, oh believe me it will get yanked.

So just imagine a completely stock 350 and 400 from a late 70's vehicle and you'd be right on the money with your imaginen' :wink: I think I'm going to look for a V8 chassis while I plan all this. My uncle found me the V6 chassy quick, maybe he can find the V8 quick as well.

TAG!!! Your it.


-Rabid

Last edited by RabidDog24; 11-18-2002 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 11-18-2002, 04:03 PM
 
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