View Poll Results: The ULTIMATE Z28 vs. SS Poll
Z28
105
60.34%
SS
51
29.31%
Other (ZL1, RS, etc.)
18
10.34%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll
The ULTIMATE Z28 vs. SS thread. Where all Z28 vs. SS posts go to die...
04-15-2008, 12:23 AM
#31
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,463
To me the SS was the top 1st gen Camaro, most hp and highest price available. But only in the 1st gen was the Z/28 true road racing performance roots and became the defacto V8 Camaro option for most of the 35yr Camaro history. 1LE cars are probably the best example seen after the 1st gen. Seems like when the Z/28 lost the slash it lost it's heritage. When the SS was in the lineup it was the most expensive and most powerful option for a Camaro.
That's the history and I don't think it will have any bearing on how GM markets the 5th gen lineup. I think the Z28 and I hope it gets the slash back would be the top model this time. I think while the history of the Z28 has lots of watered down years it does represent the strongest brand identity to the Camaro and thus I think Chevy will turn to that for it's top model.
However I'd rather the Z28 stay more affordable and true to it's road racing roots for performance in straight lines, curves and great balance. Not a Chevy variant of the GT500.
I'd personally be happy with either model on top but depending on just how powerful, expensive and extreme the top model gets I think ZL1 would be an interesting twist. That way if the balance is more to bigger power and weight over handling and stopping nobody will cry foul to the Z/28 heritage.
That's the history and I don't think it will have any bearing on how GM markets the 5th gen lineup. I think the Z28 and I hope it gets the slash back would be the top model this time. I think while the history of the Z28 has lots of watered down years it does represent the strongest brand identity to the Camaro and thus I think Chevy will turn to that for it's top model.
However I'd rather the Z28 stay more affordable and true to it's road racing roots for performance in straight lines, curves and great balance. Not a Chevy variant of the GT500.
I'd personally be happy with either model on top but depending on just how powerful, expensive and extreme the top model gets I think ZL1 would be an interesting twist. That way if the balance is more to bigger power and weight over handling and stopping nobody will cry foul to the Z/28 heritage.
04-15-2008, 12:26 AM
#32
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 208
Wheres my
Camaro Pinto option?
Could care less what they call it. I will have the mainline V8 and save money over an asphalt ***** inflator.
Camaro Pinto option?
Could care less what they call it. I will have the mainline V8 and save money over an asphalt ***** inflator.
Last edited by diarmadhi; 04-15-2008 at 12:45 AM. Reason: spelling~
04-15-2008, 12:39 AM
#34
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Westmont, IL
Posts: 1,495
Im going to agree wholeheartedly with Stars on this one...SS is the more luxurious of the two, with the Z28 being the road racer.
IDEALLY the Z28 5th gen would have some drastic weight reduction, a hi-po NA V8, with an awesome suspension and brakes...never going to happen, but its a nice dream
IDEALLY the Z28 5th gen would have some drastic weight reduction, a hi-po NA V8, with an awesome suspension and brakes...never going to happen, but its a nice dream
04-15-2008, 01:37 AM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 642
The Z28 was the roadracer option in the heyday of the stoplight street drags, it was no where near the top dawg at any point that the SS and Z28 existed together. Somebody keeps posting up the fairy tale that the Z28 could take down a L78 SS in a straight line. BULL. I would be interested in seeing a good accurate drag race comparo between a 302 Z28 and the standard lower output 396...
The Z28 has been the standard, basic V8 car for almost all of the Camaros history. Only during the Camaro's first 3 years was it terribly special at all, and it was totally overshadowed by the 375hp 396 equipped SS for ruling the street.
And about all this racing package junk, what options on the Z28 could not be had on a SS? The engine is about it, you could get front discs on the SS, upgraded rear gears, and I presume a pretty similar suspension setup. The Z28 was the "Factory" racecar, but that was just required to race it in the Trans Am series. The SS was the top dawg on the street plain and simple.
The guys arguing that the Z28 lived on while the SS died are just proving the point that the Z28 quickly became the standard run of the mill V8, which it has been for 75+ percent of the Camaro's life. When performance died and power was abysmal, there lived on the good ole Z28 (after a brief time out), a shadow its former self.
At no point was it ever hotter than the top optioned SS, I don't see why it should magically be so now. Especially if the top dawg is now going to be a heavy (again I presume) supercharged 500+ hp monster. If anything by the Z28 fans' own argument that car should be the SS bruiser...
As I said in the other thread though I hope the Camaro SS is the standard 400 hp level affordable V8 car. With how the Camaro has traditionally been I don't think it should be, but I kinda want an SS after having nearly a half dozen Z28s through the years and I don't have $40k for the new "top dawg"...
The Z28 has been the standard, basic V8 car for almost all of the Camaros history. Only during the Camaro's first 3 years was it terribly special at all, and it was totally overshadowed by the 375hp 396 equipped SS for ruling the street.
And about all this racing package junk, what options on the Z28 could not be had on a SS? The engine is about it, you could get front discs on the SS, upgraded rear gears, and I presume a pretty similar suspension setup. The Z28 was the "Factory" racecar, but that was just required to race it in the Trans Am series. The SS was the top dawg on the street plain and simple.
The guys arguing that the Z28 lived on while the SS died are just proving the point that the Z28 quickly became the standard run of the mill V8, which it has been for 75+ percent of the Camaro's life. When performance died and power was abysmal, there lived on the good ole Z28 (after a brief time out), a shadow its former self.
At no point was it ever hotter than the top optioned SS, I don't see why it should magically be so now. Especially if the top dawg is now going to be a heavy (again I presume) supercharged 500+ hp monster. If anything by the Z28 fans' own argument that car should be the SS bruiser...
As I said in the other thread though I hope the Camaro SS is the standard 400 hp level affordable V8 car. With how the Camaro has traditionally been I don't think it should be, but I kinda want an SS after having nearly a half dozen Z28s through the years and I don't have $40k for the new "top dawg"...
Last edited by Ray86IROC; 04-15-2008 at 02:20 AM.
04-15-2008, 06:08 AM
#36
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: At car shows and cruise nights!
Posts: 3,647
All of that has been covered in many other posts throughout the years and even recently.....
I find it pretty funny that the SS guys want to make the top 396 SS out to be some kind of monster when stock they were almost no faster than a G92 L98 IROC-Z or Z28, and the base 396's plain weren't. This shows either one of two things, the fastest Third Gens don't get enough credit or the 1st Gens get way too much.
The early Z28's, which had more like an underrated 400HP as opposed to a probably overrated SS 375HP, (that's how engines were usually rated then) were perfectly capable of giving the top 396's a run and beating the lesser ones if properly launched. (the key to a Z28 drag race win, knowing how to use the 302) These cars all ranged from about the 13.8-14.8 area most of the time, and if you look at tests and listen to unbiased people, the Z28 is the Camaro legend for a reason. It also stopped better, was lighter, cost more, did more than go in a straight line and had all the top performance options standard, including headers in the trunk if you wanted or chambered true dual exhaust. (and more I can't think of right now) The car was the top model overall whether it had the biggest engine or not, that's the way it always has been, disregarding later 4th Gen dumbness. It was the factory racecar and alot more development went into that car than ever went into any SS model. Sounds like that's gonna be repeated in the 5th Gen too.
Also, please stop referring to the Z28 as being some kind of "standard" V8 car as if it was an RS or SS350. (which most SS's were) It has always had the highest performing small block V8 available or optional in every Gen. It's quite nonsensical to make such incredulous claims. The M*stang guys are gonna laugh that some of our members here don't even know our cars' history and we cannot have that now can we? This is what happens when you have two cars that are pretty much the top car but with two different missions, arguements. Camaro history though, is on the Z28's side.
I find it pretty funny that the SS guys want to make the top 396 SS out to be some kind of monster when stock they were almost no faster than a G92 L98 IROC-Z or Z28, and the base 396's plain weren't. This shows either one of two things, the fastest Third Gens don't get enough credit or the 1st Gens get way too much.
The early Z28's, which had more like an underrated 400HP as opposed to a probably overrated SS 375HP, (that's how engines were usually rated then) were perfectly capable of giving the top 396's a run and beating the lesser ones if properly launched. (the key to a Z28 drag race win, knowing how to use the 302) These cars all ranged from about the 13.8-14.8 area most of the time, and if you look at tests and listen to unbiased people, the Z28 is the Camaro legend for a reason. It also stopped better, was lighter, cost more, did more than go in a straight line and had all the top performance options standard, including headers in the trunk if you wanted or chambered true dual exhaust. (and more I can't think of right now) The car was the top model overall whether it had the biggest engine or not, that's the way it always has been, disregarding later 4th Gen dumbness. It was the factory racecar and alot more development went into that car than ever went into any SS model. Sounds like that's gonna be repeated in the 5th Gen too.
Also, please stop referring to the Z28 as being some kind of "standard" V8 car as if it was an RS or SS350. (which most SS's were) It has always had the highest performing small block V8 available or optional in every Gen. It's quite nonsensical to make such incredulous claims. The M*stang guys are gonna laugh that some of our members here don't even know our cars' history and we cannot have that now can we? This is what happens when you have two cars that are pretty much the top car but with two different missions, arguements. Camaro history though, is on the Z28's side.
Last edited by IZ28; 04-15-2008 at 07:39 AM.
04-15-2008, 08:09 AM
#38
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dallas AKA Hell
Posts: 131
i voted for SS simply because i have no need for 500+ horsepower.that kind of hp will only get me behind bars.i would try to be tame for as long as possible,but there would come a point where i would snap and say to myself "lets kick this pig". OR i would try to set the dallas to houston land speed record.BUT who knows after i see a Z28 it may just seduce me in to buying her.i really cant say until they are in front of me
04-15-2008, 08:12 AM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 279
04-15-2008, 08:19 AM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 279
All of that has been covered in many other posts throughout the years and even recently.....
I find it pretty funny that the SS guys want to make the top 396 SS out to be some kind of monster when stock they were almost no faster than a G92 L98 IROC-Z or Z28, and the base 396's plain weren't. This shows either one of two things, the fastest Third Gens don't get enough credit or the 1st Gens get way too much.
The early Z28's, which had more like an underrated 400HP as opposed to a probably overrated SS 375HP, (that's how engines were usually rated then) were perfectly capable of giving the top 396's a run and beating the lesser ones if properly launched. (the key to a Z28 drag race win, knowing how to use the 302).
I find it pretty funny that the SS guys want to make the top 396 SS out to be some kind of monster when stock they were almost no faster than a G92 L98 IROC-Z or Z28, and the base 396's plain weren't. This shows either one of two things, the fastest Third Gens don't get enough credit or the 1st Gens get way too much.
The early Z28's, which had more like an underrated 400HP as opposed to a probably overrated SS 375HP, (that's how engines were usually rated then) were perfectly capable of giving the top 396's a run and beating the lesser ones if properly launched. (the key to a Z28 drag race win, knowing how to use the 302).
Saying the Z28 could hang with or beat an SS stock for stock is like saying a newer Mustang GT could hang with or beat an LS1 SS. Yea, it most definitely could if the GT had a great driver and the SS had a poor one. But the truth is that the SS has more power and is the faster vehicle.
04-15-2008, 08:25 AM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
From my personal first hand encounters, it appeared that there was little or no understanding of Camaro's history at that particular time by those involved.
04-15-2008, 08:33 AM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,947
The COPO ZL-1's were the fastest, NOT SS or Z28.
All Aluminum 427ci/425hp(probably underrated), very limited production.
Interesting Read:
http://www.68rscamaro.com/camfacts/67z_hist/
With the same or more HP as the 396/375hp BBC, and weighing over 250lbs less, I'd have to say the 302ci H.O. Z28 was faster.
I'd say they should follow a formula like this, not equalling the Vette exactly ofcourse, but:
Z/28 = Z/06
SS(Z/L1?) = Z/R1
All Aluminum 427ci/425hp(probably underrated), very limited production.
Interesting Read:
http://www.68rscamaro.com/camfacts/67z_hist/
1967 RPO Z28 - Special Performance Package includes 302-cid V8 engine, closed positive ventilation, dual exhaust with deep tone mufflers, special front and rear suspension, heavy-duty radiator and temperature controlled fan, quick ratio steering, 15x6 wheels, 7.35x15 nylon red stripe tires, 3.73:1 ratio axle and special paint stripes on hood and rear deck (requires 4-speed close ratio transmission, power brakes, front disc brakes or heavy-duty front disc brakes with metallic rear brakes; posi-traction recommended; Sport Coupe V8 only).
Price - $358.10
Total 1967 Z28 production - 602.
Price - $358.10
Total 1967 Z28 production - 602.
"Horsepower was listed at 290 at 5800 rpm nominal. It's important to keep that word nominal in mind, because it means the 290 figure was just something somebody plugged into Chevy's spec sheets. It might just as well have been 300 or 350 or 400 bhp. Most, if not all, Z-28 302's put out more than 290 bhp and 290 foot-pounds of torque at 4200 rpm.
Actual horsepower depended a lot on which intake and exhaust manifolds you chose, which carburetor(s), and what internal modifications you pursued. No actual dyno figures were ever released by Chevrolet for the 302-cid Z-28 engine, but the auto magazines didn't hesitate to speculate. Their estimates ranged from a realistic 350 bhp in ROAD & TRACK to 370-plus in SPORTS CAR GRAPHIC to 400 bhp in CAR LIFE. All-out, blueprinted racing versions, like those built by Traco and Yunick, probably delivered in the neighborhood of 450 bhp, which took some heavy tinkering to pull from 302 cid and still expect reliability".
Actual horsepower depended a lot on which intake and exhaust manifolds you chose, which carburetor(s), and what internal modifications you pursued. No actual dyno figures were ever released by Chevrolet for the 302-cid Z-28 engine, but the auto magazines didn't hesitate to speculate. Their estimates ranged from a realistic 350 bhp in ROAD & TRACK to 370-plus in SPORTS CAR GRAPHIC to 400 bhp in CAR LIFE. All-out, blueprinted racing versions, like those built by Traco and Yunick, probably delivered in the neighborhood of 450 bhp, which took some heavy tinkering to pull from 302 cid and still expect reliability".
I'd say they should follow a formula like this, not equalling the Vette exactly ofcourse, but:
Z/28 = Z/06
SS(Z/L1?) = Z/R1
Last edited by 90rocz; 04-15-2008 at 08:45 AM.
04-15-2008, 08:47 AM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,209
04-15-2008, 08:48 AM
#44
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Dublin, OH
Posts: 106
Maybe this is cheating, but I didn't vote. I guess I feel like they're both a different breed of the same animal meant to do different things. I've always seen the Z/28 as the hot handling, NA high-revving, lighter weight road course car and the SS as the street bruiser/drag racer with all the bells and whistles. Personally, I want a Z/28 but the way it's looking is that it's going to be priced out of my range if it's a supercharged top model.
Personally, I'd like to see the Z/28 as the "top model" but make the force-fed engine an option. Maybe something like this using the currently available engines:
Base V6
SS (LS3)
Z/28 (LS7 standard with optional LS9)
or even:
Base V6
SS (LS3)
Z/28 (LS7)
ZL1 (LS9)
Again, this is just my $.02. To me, it makes sense and sticks to what the models have been in the past IMHO.
Personally, I'd like to see the Z/28 as the "top model" but make the force-fed engine an option. Maybe something like this using the currently available engines:
Base V6
SS (LS3)
Z/28 (LS7 standard with optional LS9)
or even:
Base V6
SS (LS3)
Z/28 (LS7)
ZL1 (LS9)
Again, this is just my $.02. To me, it makes sense and sticks to what the models have been in the past IMHO.
04-15-2008, 08:52 AM
#45
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,209
Maybe this is cheating, but I didn't vote. I guess I feel like they're both a different breed of the same animal meant to do different things. I've always seen the Z/28 as the hot handling, NA high-revving, lighter weight road course car and the SS as the street bruiser/drag racer with all the bells and whistles. Personally, I want a Z/28 but the way it's looking is that it's going to be priced out of my range if it's a supercharged top model.
Personally, I'd like to see the Z/28 as the "top model" but make the force-fed engine an option. Maybe something like this using the currently available engines:
Base V6
SS (LS3)
Z/28 (LS7 standard with optional LS9)
or even:
Base V6
SS (LS3)
Z/28 (LS7)
ZL1 (LS9)
Again, this is just my $.02. To me, it makes sense and sticks to what the models have been in the past IMHO.
Personally, I'd like to see the Z/28 as the "top model" but make the force-fed engine an option. Maybe something like this using the currently available engines:
Base V6
SS (LS3)
Z/28 (LS7 standard with optional LS9)
or even:
Base V6
SS (LS3)
Z/28 (LS7)
ZL1 (LS9)
Again, this is just my $.02. To me, it makes sense and sticks to what the models have been in the past IMHO.
The LS9 is WAY too expensive to put in a Camaro, not to mention that GM won't want any other car besides the Corvette to have the LS9.
The Z/28 will be getting the supercharged LS8, with ~525 HP from what I've been hearing.
