For those of you who insisted that the Camaro is a "certainty"..
11-08-2008, 12:01 AM
#46
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Detroit, MI USA
Posts: 2,301
2.36billion per month plus the additional 75million cash burn rate daily..its all over....those figures are right from the top dog CEO.....and i do like the fact the general is not looking for a bailout...but then why ask for an additional 25 billion on top of the 25 billion already given.....what are we missing?..i can read and add..and at that rate above with 16.2billion in cash reserve and a must have 11 to 14billion to sustain operation it looks like some time before christmas the general is gone....
..
ps..i frogged up on the 12 billion...call it too much beer (i dont drink)...shoulda been approximately 2.1billion per month...
..
ps..i frogged up on the 12 billion...call it too much beer (i dont drink)...shoulda been approximately 2.1billion per month...
Look -- your first post said GM was losing 12 billion a month -- now you're saying 2.36 billion a month.
WHICH IS IT?
Perhaps you need to learn something before you post.
11-08-2008, 02:33 AM
#47
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
its taxes..plain and simple..its money going to government and not to detroit...its that simple...another issue is the tax redo started at 250K its now down to near 80K...wala another reason to forget about buying a new vehicle....and there is no way the general will end up with chrysler..90% chance it goes to hyundai and becomes a state run company
Tax rates have not changed between this summer and now. Yet you're sppouting off taxes as if that's the reason why people aren't buying new cars. You're making me start to think you played football without a helmet one too many times. The problem is a lack of loans. Pure and simple.
Also, if you have a legitimate source for that $80K tax redo claim in which taxes will go up, then post it here. And I don't mean some shadowy "they" said or any version of "I, you, me, or they know".
Otherwise, you're risking being marginalized.
cerberus owns majority of GMAC..of course they wont loan to a competitior..you can get a loan if you have some skin in the game and a good credit rating..where are all these people?..sitting on cash and figuring out how to survive for the next 4 years thats where...
Ps: word been circulating that the general will recive no bail out as the economist guru's believe bankruptcy is the only solutuion...there are reasons for that..but my post always gets censored when certain things are mentioned so think for yourself why
Ps: word been circulating that the general will recive no bail out as the economist guru's believe bankruptcy is the only solutuion...there are reasons for that..but my post always gets censored when certain things are mentioned so think for yourself why
GMAC is in the business to make money. They have been loaning to a so-called "competitor" for years.
There is no economic "guru" saying that GM should go bankrupt, you are talking about public polls. Again, like Scott pointed out, you need to get your information right before you post them as facts, or you'll be marginalized.
If your posts gets censored its because they are false and make no sense.
Besides, you can't say "always" gets censored. As we see here, quite a bit of your posts get through, even though they're wrong.
Your post came across as though you were saying that GM would not make Camaro to save money. The link and the quote you posted mentioned drastic action, and then you mention Camaro. I believe that's what you were getting at, and hence, my reaction.
That sales money is included in the burn rate.
2.36billion per month plus the additional 75million cash burn rate daily..its all over....those figures are right from the top dog CEO.....and i do like the fact the general is not looking for a bailout...but then why ask for an additional 25 billion on top of the 25 billion already given.....what are we missing?..i can read and add..and at that rate above with 16.2billion in cash reserve and a must have 11 to 14billion to sustain operation it looks like some time before christmas the general is gone....
..
ps..i frogged up on the 12 billion...call it too much beer (i dont drink)...shoulda been approximately 2.1billion per month...
..
ps..i frogged up on the 12 billion...call it too much beer (i dont drink)...shoulda been approximately 2.1billion per month...
Here are the facts.
GM burned through 2.5 billion dollars the past quarter.
Quarter means 3 months.
3 months is not 1 month, which you posted as GM's burn rate.
There is no "additional" burn rate. $75 million or anything.
You say you can read and you can add, but does your posts show it???
Last edited by guionM; 11-08-2008 at 02:56 AM.
11-08-2008, 05:58 AM
#48
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 85
ahh..like you guys should learn how to build a product that people actually want to buy that is not in for repair 3 months after purchase?...
11-08-2008, 09:27 AM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 109
Everybody needs to stop, take a breath and think about some things.
And just for full disclosure, I probably have more of a vested interest in this than most because I own a little bit of GM stock and depending upon the outcome of things, that investment position could be wiped out.
Firstly when GM declares bankruptcy, it will probably NOT mean the complete and utter end of GM. And yes I said when, because based on the 3Q financial #s, GM is fast running out of cash, probably too fast for the gov't to get around to doing anything about it.
When GM declares bankruptcy, it will probably be Ch 11 reorganizational bankruptcy. This will allow GM to continue operations while the bankruptcy makes its way through the courts, which could take years, especially with a company the size of GM. Some Ch 11 bankruptcy's have taken upwards of a decade to emerge from the courts. Even after emerging from bankruptcy, GM will still likely be around as the whole point of Ch 11 is to allow a company to remain in business.
The 2 biggest most immediate changes from a Ch 11 that would impact GM would be suspension of payments on the ~$45B in outstanding corporate debt and the ability to reject unfavorable contracts, including union contracts. I don't know the details of the outstanding debt but that alone could stop the bleeding of cash depending upon the interest rates.
At the end of the process, GM would likely emerge as a lot stronger company with a clean slate to work with. As of this moment, the worst case scenario I see is that GM emerges wholly owned by their creditors, wiping out the shareholders, but GM would still exist. I just don't foresee a large company, with as many hard assets as GM has with the potential to make money, being forced into liquidation bankruptcy.
While this whole process goes on, everybody just remember that there are more than few large companies in the US, that have gone through Bankruptcy and are still around. Delta Airlines and Texaco are a couple that did and are. Which BTW it took Delta almost 2 years to get out of Ch 11...
Oh and a couple more things to remember, any company will always toe the line that they "aren't considering bankruptcy" until the papers are filed because if a company were to come out and say "we"re declaring bankruptcy" investors would flee like rats leaving a sinking ship leading to stock price collapse.
On top of that, they might not have any control over whether they enter bankruptcy at all. As a company, if your creditors are afraid they won't get paid, they can petition the court to have you involuntarily placed in bankruptcy.
Right now its entirely possible we might wake up monday morning to find that GM has been put in Ch 11 by their creditors...
And just for full disclosure, I probably have more of a vested interest in this than most because I own a little bit of GM stock and depending upon the outcome of things, that investment position could be wiped out.
Firstly when GM declares bankruptcy, it will probably NOT mean the complete and utter end of GM. And yes I said when, because based on the 3Q financial #s, GM is fast running out of cash, probably too fast for the gov't to get around to doing anything about it.
When GM declares bankruptcy, it will probably be Ch 11 reorganizational bankruptcy. This will allow GM to continue operations while the bankruptcy makes its way through the courts, which could take years, especially with a company the size of GM. Some Ch 11 bankruptcy's have taken upwards of a decade to emerge from the courts. Even after emerging from bankruptcy, GM will still likely be around as the whole point of Ch 11 is to allow a company to remain in business.
The 2 biggest most immediate changes from a Ch 11 that would impact GM would be suspension of payments on the ~$45B in outstanding corporate debt and the ability to reject unfavorable contracts, including union contracts. I don't know the details of the outstanding debt but that alone could stop the bleeding of cash depending upon the interest rates.
At the end of the process, GM would likely emerge as a lot stronger company with a clean slate to work with. As of this moment, the worst case scenario I see is that GM emerges wholly owned by their creditors, wiping out the shareholders, but GM would still exist. I just don't foresee a large company, with as many hard assets as GM has with the potential to make money, being forced into liquidation bankruptcy.
While this whole process goes on, everybody just remember that there are more than few large companies in the US, that have gone through Bankruptcy and are still around. Delta Airlines and Texaco are a couple that did and are. Which BTW it took Delta almost 2 years to get out of Ch 11...
Oh and a couple more things to remember, any company will always toe the line that they "aren't considering bankruptcy" until the papers are filed because if a company were to come out and say "we"re declaring bankruptcy" investors would flee like rats leaving a sinking ship leading to stock price collapse.
On top of that, they might not have any control over whether they enter bankruptcy at all. As a company, if your creditors are afraid they won't get paid, they can petition the court to have you involuntarily placed in bankruptcy.
Right now its entirely possible we might wake up monday morning to find that GM has been put in Ch 11 by their creditors...
Last edited by nova; 11-08-2008 at 09:33 AM.
11-08-2008, 09:50 AM
#52
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 95
11-08-2008, 10:22 AM
#53
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
If you are making a quarter million dollars per year, I doubt this is an issue.
If you are making less than 120K per year, we're not even on the tax increase radar.
The issue is that people are fearful of their jobs, and (in case you missed the past month or so) banks aren't lending.
GMAC now requires scores of over 700! That has zilch to do with taxes.
Credit cards now require higher minimum payments. Again, unrelated to taxes.
Lenders that still finance car loans require a much higher down payment. You guessed it.... no tax issue there.
The issue is loans, not some tax issue that you and I aren't going to be adversely involved in. Unless you're in the upper 5% of wage earners.... but at that altitude, I don't think you're very concerned about getting a loan for a $25-30K vehicle.
If you are making less than 120K per year, we're not even on the tax increase radar.
The issue is that people are fearful of their jobs, and (in case you missed the past month or so) banks aren't lending.
GMAC now requires scores of over 700! That has zilch to do with taxes.
Credit cards now require higher minimum payments. Again, unrelated to taxes.
Lenders that still finance car loans require a much higher down payment. You guessed it.... no tax issue there.
The issue is loans, not some tax issue that you and I aren't going to be adversely involved in. Unless you're in the upper 5% of wage earners.... but at that altitude, I don't think you're very concerned about getting a loan for a $25-30K vehicle.
11-08-2008, 10:29 AM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
Because that money is not tied to anything - it is artificial - they print it out of thin air. The poisonous Fed has pumped well over $1 trillion of this kind of money into the system in the past few months. What does this cause? Inflation - a gigaton worth of it. In fact, many well respected economists feel that we are in the verge of hyperinflation, and more bailouts would make this all but certain. The dollar will plummet in value, and that will remove the US from the global economy - a result much worse than GM eating a bullet (although this would be harder in the short run).
Wow, way to entirely miss the point. GM's cash problem has been rapidly accelerating to the point that IT MAY NOT BE IN EXISTENCE LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CAMARO... or any car for that matter. You can call BS all you want, that doesn't change the facts surrounding their situation. Its the 11th hour for them.
Wow, way to entirely miss the point. GM's cash problem has been rapidly accelerating to the point that IT MAY NOT BE IN EXISTENCE LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CAMARO... or any car for that matter. You can call BS all you want, that doesn't change the facts surrounding their situation. Its the 11th hour for them.
11-08-2008, 10:53 AM
#55
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffalo,NY 'burbs
Posts: 361
Are we actually having a discussion on GM "going under"? Not gonna happen for a variety of reasons.
#1) Unemployment is at 6.5%, a 14 year high- the country can't afford to add to it with a whole bunch of displaced autoworkers.
#2) Government will intervene (see #1) ; probably in the form of a "bailout" but what everyone has to understand is the current bailout actually has tangible assets attached. The $700b "we" gave out isn't charity where we never expect to get it back; just will probably take 5-10 years to do it. I would expect that an automaker bailout would be much the same- effectively a loan based on x, y, z, etc being restructured. That will probably mean Chapter 11 prior to the bailout being approved; that isn't as bad a thing as people think IMO.
#3) The intangible American pride. Think about what a downer it would be to see GM (or the others) fail. You wouldn't have to work for, or be somehow linked to GM, to feel the pain of it going under. It would be a totally different public sentiment (IMO) than watching Bear Sterns going under.
#1) Unemployment is at 6.5%, a 14 year high- the country can't afford to add to it with a whole bunch of displaced autoworkers.
#2) Government will intervene (see #1) ; probably in the form of a "bailout" but what everyone has to understand is the current bailout actually has tangible assets attached. The $700b "we" gave out isn't charity where we never expect to get it back; just will probably take 5-10 years to do it. I would expect that an automaker bailout would be much the same- effectively a loan based on x, y, z, etc being restructured. That will probably mean Chapter 11 prior to the bailout being approved; that isn't as bad a thing as people think IMO.
#3) The intangible American pride. Think about what a downer it would be to see GM (or the others) fail. You wouldn't have to work for, or be somehow linked to GM, to feel the pain of it going under. It would be a totally different public sentiment (IMO) than watching Bear Sterns going under.
11-08-2008, 11:28 AM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: CNY
Posts: 2,224
Do you even know what you're talking about, or are you parroting someone else's alarmist rants?
Tax rates have not changed between this summer and now. Yet you're sppouting off taxes as if that's the reason why people aren't buying new cars. You're making me start to think you played football without a helmet one too many times. The problem is a lack of loans. Pure and simple.
Also, if you have a legitimate source for that $80K tax redo claim in which taxes will go up, then post it here. And I don't mean some shadowy "they" said or any version of "I, you, me, or they know".
Otherwise, you're risking being marginalized.
Snooter, where on earth do you get your information & ideas?
GMAC is in the business to make money. They have been loaning to a so-called "competitor" for years.
There is no economic "guru" saying that GM should go bankrupt, you are talking about public polls. Again, like Scott pointed out, you need to get your information right before you post them as facts, or you'll be marginalized.
If your posts gets censored its because they are false and make no sense.
Besides, you can't say "always" gets censored. As we see here, quite a bit of your posts get through, even though they're wrong.
Once again snooter, your posts are completely false, and in all honesty, anyone who takes these types of posts of yours seriously probally has brain damage.
Here are the facts.
GM burned through 2.5 billion dollars the past quarter.
Quarter means 3 months.
3 months is not 1 month, which you posted as GM's burn rate.
There is no "additional" burn rate. $75 million or anything.
You say you can read and you can add, but does your posts show it???
Tax rates have not changed between this summer and now. Yet you're sppouting off taxes as if that's the reason why people aren't buying new cars. You're making me start to think you played football without a helmet one too many times. The problem is a lack of loans. Pure and simple.
Also, if you have a legitimate source for that $80K tax redo claim in which taxes will go up, then post it here. And I don't mean some shadowy "they" said or any version of "I, you, me, or they know".
Otherwise, you're risking being marginalized.
Snooter, where on earth do you get your information & ideas?
GMAC is in the business to make money. They have been loaning to a so-called "competitor" for years.
There is no economic "guru" saying that GM should go bankrupt, you are talking about public polls. Again, like Scott pointed out, you need to get your information right before you post them as facts, or you'll be marginalized.
If your posts gets censored its because they are false and make no sense.
Besides, you can't say "always" gets censored. As we see here, quite a bit of your posts get through, even though they're wrong.
Once again snooter, your posts are completely false, and in all honesty, anyone who takes these types of posts of yours seriously probally has brain damage.
Here are the facts.
GM burned through 2.5 billion dollars the past quarter.
Quarter means 3 months.
3 months is not 1 month, which you posted as GM's burn rate.
There is no "additional" burn rate. $75 million or anything.
You say you can read and you can add, but does your posts show it???
Guion,
It looks like snooter gets his info from Fox "news".
11-08-2008, 12:16 PM
#58
Admin Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Nashville, TN area
Posts: 11,157
Guys, let's be sure to keep a few things in mind here before posting...
That's the kind of site this is. Deviation is not allowed here and will be removed.
Thanks, all.
- Want to bash GM or the Camaro? Wrong site.
- Want to say the sky is falling? Be sure to quote actual numbers, facts, and data and not armchair speculation.
- Want to gain or make clarification to someone's post? Do it respectfully or don't do it at all.
That's the kind of site this is. Deviation is not allowed here and will be removed.
Thanks, all.
11-08-2008, 12:43 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8
It will cost the govt. more to let GM go under than to help them. Think of all the unemployed people and the costs of that to the govt. (i.e. less taxes being collected from people with little income and then the social security they will be collecting, lost GDP to the U.S. economy, etc. etc.). Plus there is a huge psychological factor of a large co. that's been around for a long time going bankrupt. They will not let a huge company like GM go under. Not gonna happen.
11-08-2008, 01:02 PM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 233
Well, I for one think that they're going to go the Ch.11 route, combined with government aid, so they can continue development on the promising things they have in the pipeline while maintaining warranty coverage.
In the end, I hope it means downsizing (as painful as that is to hear) and a reorganization. There are too many brands. GM needs an identity.
In the end, I hope it means downsizing (as painful as that is to hear) and a reorganization. There are too many brands. GM needs an identity.
