sselie

Ouch! Ya had to remind me?!? My insides are still in a state of shock!

Best regardSS,

Elie

fastball

I'm aware of the 5/100 on the drivetrain. That's a start, but 100k is really only the begining of where I start to look at how well designed and assembled a car is. In today's day with modern design computers and robots on nearly every point of a modern assembly line, a well built car that lasts a long time with normal routine maintanence should not be hard or expensive to make. Maybe I'm missing something, but when cheap pieces of tin otherwise known as Corollas and Civics can run over 200k without major repairs, I find it hard to believe GM can't start matching that with ALL of their cars, in every division. It makes a 5/100 warranty on the drivetrain rather moot.

Warranties don't sell me. High quality does.

detroitboy

I just happened to notice something interesting today when walking up to my CTS in the parking lot......the CTS (as well as most other models in the parking lot next to it) have a parting line/body line midway up the rear panel to the rear of the wheel well. This horizontal line separates the rear bumper cover from the rest of the quarter panel and goes all the way to the rear wheel well versus the earlier models which left the rear quarter panel as one piece with the upper panel. The earlier models simply made the rear bumper panel appear more similar to the "old days" of a bumper as opposed to having it wrap around the car from fender well to fender well.
Well....the camaro comcept shows now such line for ANY bumper cover. I assume it would be safe to say that there will be a considerable difference between the concept model and the production model in this respect?
If so....what other differences will there be which most of us have never given a thought to?

poSSum

It's there.

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520961

Follow the link and check the hi-res pics. The line follows the side marker lights ... front and rear.

QATransAm

A 5/100k to me shows damn good confidence in quality.
500hp compared to 190...what car takes more punishment?
A civic with a built K20...how long would that car be perfect?
it just depends on what the car is built for, and how its used.

Interior, window motors, rear...all need to last longer, i can't argue that.

ChrisL

Did Honda or Toyota put their money where their mouth is by extending their warranty coverage?

If you are of the drone mindset that only Honda and Toyota can build quality vehicles, then what can GM say to change your mind? What needs to happen to change your perception? Are you going to wait until folks get 100,000 miles on their 5th gens before you'll consider buying one?

EllwynX

To comment on the 'drone mindset' comment...

WARNING- Excessive Rambling Follows

It is very true that this mindset exists. I work with a woman that currently drives a 2000 Corolla. She swears by Toyota's, and has said to me they are the 'best cars' more than once.

Yet, here's why I don't understand how she can say that.

She previously had a Chevy Cavalier (it was totalled by an illegal mexican, but I won't get started on that topic). When I mention that I loved my '95 Cavalier (I forget what year her's was but it was late 80's early 90's) and it was the best car I've ever owned, she pipes up that she loved her Cavalier and never had any problems either.

Ok, so we've established that she owned an American brand vehicle and considered it a good product.

Her 2000 Corolla has somewhere around 130,000 miles on it currently. For months now (possibly a year or more, I forget) it's been burning oil to the point she has to add oil to it every few days. She knows she needs a new car and has already decided it's going to be a Rav4. No research, nothing. It's a Toyota she's getting.

So WHAT exactly makes the Toyota so wonderful in her eyes?

Personally, I consider 130,000 miles to be a lot. But I know most people do not. (I have never owned a vehicle with 100,000+ miles.) But I live with someone who paid $400 in 2002 for a 1989 Celebrity and it had 160,000-180,000 miles (he forgets exactly what it had) before he got another vehicle a year later. It just needed new cables that connect to the battery IIRC. His next car was a 1991 Bonneville w/150,000+ (his memory sucks as to eactly what they had, it could have been 160,000 or more) that he only had one small problem (I forget what it was) that cost less than $250 to fix. It's only existing mechanical problem when he got rid of it (gave it to a friend actually) was a radiator leak, but that was due to his rear-ending someone, not a fault with the car.

Currently he's driving a 1999 Regal w/104,000. He did have to get something fixed on the power steering a year ago and as well as something with the temp guage, but nothing overly expensive.

And since I've never owned a car w/over 100,000 miles (I had my Cavalier 5 years and 98,000 miles) I've never had any major repairs and can't really speak for high mileage cars. (I traded my last 2 cars with less than 35,000 and plan on getting rid of the Aveo with even less.) Only car I've had with any problems was my 2002 Camaro (fuel pump, window motors of course) but they were covered under warranty.

I could go on about my parents owning nothing but GM, Ford and Chrysler with only the Ford (1993 Mercury Cougar actually) being the only one with a major problem...

Back to the point of this post (there's a point?) how can someone that had a great GM car (in their opinion) think toyota is the greatest when their current (and I believe first) one has had a problem for months now, with only 130,000 miles?

Drone Mindset like you said is the only explanation I can see.

SFireGT98

I find it hard to believe that a Corolla, Civic or any car could run over 200k without any major problems unless you drive a couple thousand miles a month and its mostly highway. I mean, they're automobiles with moving mechanical parts and after that much abuse, mechanical parts start to wear out and break, on ANY car or piece of machinery. And a car with THAT many miles on it, at that point its reliability is gonna reflect how the owner took care of it, not how it was built 200k miles ago.

fastball

I currently drive a 2000 Prelude with 171,000 miles on it, and I have every ounce of confidence it will run fine well over 200k. I don't baby the car, I do drive it hard. And it has never had major issues. Brakes, tires, belts, battery, and fluid changes are all I've done. The paint is still good, interior doesn't rattle, and all the power accessories work like new. The A/C has never been recharged even.

I drive 25k/year minimum. I can afford a nice car to drive in to the ground. What I won't put up with is having the car in the shop for alternators, leaks, bad accessories, and premature deterioration of interior components or bad paint. I'm convinced a car can be built to run for 200k without these issues because I have first hand experience with it as well do I know people with the same experience.

I love the Camaro, and I really want one, but I'm just apprehensive that GM can stack up to Honda in that regard.

bond2

I have to agree with SFireGT98. The reliability of a car has ALOT to do with how the owner treats and maintains the car. During the first 6 years I owned my car I drove it pretty hard and had some reliability issues that went along with that. For the past 60K-70k miles (currently at 152k miles) I have had only a few minor issues, but I don't hammer down the gas pedal as often as I used too! Over the life of the car I would say my 4th gen has been pretty reliable though. Major issues would have been my A4 crapping out once, opti replaced once and replacing the water pump, but I got 140k miles out of it. I am sure the 5th gen will be even more reliable and I am sure the interior will be much higher quality than the 4th gens.

ChrisL

137,000 miles when these pics were taken in 6/2005

http://imageevent.com/face440/98cavalier

Car was sold shortly after. I bought my wife the GTO to replace this. Let me know if you see any fit and finish issues. In the 8 years we had it, that car never failed us. It always started. The only out of the ordinary repair was a part that attached to the wheel for the speedometer had to be replaced, which was done under warranty.

... and we're talking a Cavalier, which is in a lower price segment than your Prelude.

There was a time when your concerns were justified... that was 10-20 years ago.

EllwynX

Nice looking Cavalier.

Now can I PLEASE get that color on my 5th Gen Camaro?!?!!?!?!?

Pretty please... With (insert favorite junk food) on top?

ChrisL

Purple keeps ending up in our driveway. The latest flavor had 4 more cyls.

Eric77TA

I had a 97 Cavalier Convertible followed by a 2000 Z24 coupe and never had any problems with either. I didn't rack up 137,000 miles on either of them, but they were both enjoyable cars to own.

Fbodfather

well--- we have been -- for years. But I'm afraid you never hear about it. Yes, we have some quality issues. Every manufacturer does.....but go look at the JD Power surveys for "bought new -- still own" 4 years later......and look at the GM scores.

I believe one of our friends got it right when he was giving examples of the 'drone' -- it always amazes me that people will tell me that they HAD a GM car - yes, it was one of the best cars (or trucks) that they'd ever owned....but they LOVE their (insert Japanese car brand here) -- and would never consider anything else........and yet they can't really tell you WHY they won't buy another GM car--

(that's why I spend a lot of time smashing my head into the keyboard......)