Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT500
11-18-2011, 03:19 PM
#46
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
The point is simply that the ZL1 weighs 270 pounds more in total, yet the GT500 still has 55 lbs more over the front end.
Extreme bench racing? Why do you think manufacturers with performance based cars will move the battery to the trunk of the car? How much do you think a typical car battery weighs?
Extreme bench racing? Why do you think manufacturers with performance based cars will move the battery to the trunk of the car? How much do you think a typical car battery weighs?
Is the GT500 better and going to outrun the ZL1? On paper it's not looking good for GM but I have no doubt GM will leapfrog the Mustang in the next few years. Rinse and Repeat process to infinity.
This. Tell the guys at Lotus that their cars are ill handling.
11-18-2011, 03:21 PM
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
11-18-2011, 03:35 PM
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
I have NEVER encountered the argument on this site that weight distribution was an important metric nor have I really ever seen it talked about. Now, it is. Allll righty then.By the way, I've had a chance to do some reading from a bit of an insider who used to be on this site about the ZL1's development. Al O and his team really did a tremendous job with this car. Considering that the early ZL1 concept was little more than an SS with 130 more HP and 300 more pounds on it, they really put a lot of effort into it to make it a respectable well-rounded car.
11-18-2011, 04:07 PM
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
What I think is being referenced here is the comparison of the two. After all, isn't that what this is about? People are quick to throw around a crack about the Camaro's weight. If I read it right, it comes down to a 270lb difference, and 55 of those lbs. (roughly 20% of the difference) is in a place that is not always optimal for performance.
I don't claim to be an expert, I am asking the experts here who can speak intelligently if this is worth considering that the Mustang's weight advantage isn't as significant in real-world situations based on that?
I don't think that the sheer horsepower and top-speed numbers are anything to scoff at. They are staggering and cannot be denied. I am very interested in seeing final head-to-head performance numbers.
Furthermore, the Porsche and Lotus reference...isn't that semi-exclusive considering that they are either AWD or if they are RWD, the engine weight is over the primary drive wheels?
11-18-2011, 04:28 PM
#50
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
Regarding objectivity, I don't have a ZL1 or GT500 on order, and am not so brand loyal that I only own GM or Camaros (although that is mostly what I prefer and why I am on this board). What I do like is facts and data.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...4&postcount=19
It's not just about total weight. It's the way the mass is distributed throughout the car that characterizes its overall balance and handling.
It's great that the Mustang has lost 100 lbs from the place where it needs it least - the nose. Gotta give Ford credit there.
However, the Camaro's LS3 is still nowhere near the mass of the GT500's engine. At least that should say something about Mustang's front-rear weight distribution in relation to Camaro's.
It's great that the Mustang has lost 100 lbs from the place where it needs it least - the nose. Gotta give Ford credit there.
However, the Camaro's LS3 is still nowhere near the mass of the GT500's engine. At least that should say something about Mustang's front-rear weight distribution in relation to Camaro's.
@ "neck snapping"You plan on going all kung fu on your passengers or something? That's kinda violent sounding...
As for destroying base Vettes, I wouldn't be so sure, at least until the rubberband / plastic wheel swap takes place. I think the two would be pretty close... The Z/28 would enjoy a slight power to weight advantage if it were to come it at 4000-4100 lbs and 556 hp, but the Vette enjoys better weight distribution and better aero properties.
And what doesn't Ford do with the GT500? Its pretty comprehinsive.
Compared to the base GT, the GT500 gets; different tires (summer), different dampers, roll bars, and springs (40% heavier than the base GT stuff), higher durometer bushings all around with additional bracing.
And when you get down to it, the GT500 prior to the 2010 TP/GT cars would trounce the GT in every performance metric (and possibly the Bullitt as well).
The GT500's achilles heel is due to NVH issues with rear suspension and F/R weight distribution.The former is easily fixed but not really an option as it creates some racket in the interior, the latter has been addressed somewhat for 2011.
Compared to the base GT, the GT500 gets; different tires (summer), different dampers, roll bars, and springs (40% heavier than the base GT stuff), higher durometer bushings all around with additional bracing.
And when you get down to it, the GT500 prior to the 2010 TP/GT cars would trounce the GT in every performance metric (and possibly the Bullitt as well).
The GT500's achilles heel is due to NVH issues with rear suspension and F/R weight distribution.The former is easily fixed but not really an option as it creates some racket in the interior, the latter has been addressed somewhat for 2011.
I'm not being a Camaro apologist. I've said many times that if I were about to go drop $30k on a coupe right now, the Mustang would have an advantage with me (pending test drives and such). I'm simply saying that I think there is more to be had from the Camaro, particularly in the chassis setup, and I'd like to see them offer it. It already boasts better weight distribution than the Mustang, so I'd like to see what it does with a better matched set of tires and some suspension aimed more at handling. Gears, too, as the Mustang has a rather significant gearing advantage, especially when you factor in the larger wheel/tire diameter of the Camaro.
You are right, looks are not a performance category (did I say that it is?). Neither is weight, by the way, except in the sense that it affects handling and acceleration / braking, which you already mentioned separately. Nor is visibility a performance metric. Not saying it doesn't matter; like styling, it matters quite a bit in the purchase decision. I'd also give the engine nod to the Camaro, especially if there is a desire to modify later, but all of that remains to be seen.
Please don't use Brembo as a general category of brakes. The characteristics you describe based on your own brakes may not apply to those on the SS. In fact, every article I recall reading about the new Camaro has nothing but praise for its brakes, in terms of both performance and feel, and I don't remember any complaints about squealing or poor wet performance.
Speaking of the weight distribution, I just thought about something interesting (to me, at least).
Using 3860 lbs with a 52/48 F/R split for the SS and 3600 lbs, 55/45 for the GT, the Camaro ends up with 2007 lbs up front, vs 1980 lbs for the GT. 30 lbs more. The rear ends up carring 230 lbs of the 260 lb weight difference. Just for the hell of it, I think the 4th gens were also in the 55/45 range for distribution. A 3500 lb Camaro would have had around 1925 up front and 1575 out back. Yet that car got 275s front and rear in SS trim, and the GT has 255s all around, while the new Camaro has 245s up front. They almost look like bicycle tires, because 245mm is so narrow for how tall they are at 28 inches (compared to 25.4 inches for the 275/40R17s on my car). I really think the could dial out some of the understeer and body roll from the current Camaro and make strides toward the car comparing more favorably in the handling feel department.
All that said, if nothing changes for the Camaro for 2011, then yes, the Mustang seems to have a small edge in overall performance.
You are right, looks are not a performance category (did I say that it is?). Neither is weight, by the way, except in the sense that it affects handling and acceleration / braking, which you already mentioned separately. Nor is visibility a performance metric. Not saying it doesn't matter; like styling, it matters quite a bit in the purchase decision. I'd also give the engine nod to the Camaro, especially if there is a desire to modify later, but all of that remains to be seen.
Please don't use Brembo as a general category of brakes. The characteristics you describe based on your own brakes may not apply to those on the SS. In fact, every article I recall reading about the new Camaro has nothing but praise for its brakes, in terms of both performance and feel, and I don't remember any complaints about squealing or poor wet performance.
Speaking of the weight distribution, I just thought about something interesting (to me, at least).
Using 3860 lbs with a 52/48 F/R split for the SS and 3600 lbs, 55/45 for the GT, the Camaro ends up with 2007 lbs up front, vs 1980 lbs for the GT. 30 lbs more. The rear ends up carring 230 lbs of the 260 lb weight difference. Just for the hell of it, I think the 4th gens were also in the 55/45 range for distribution. A 3500 lb Camaro would have had around 1925 up front and 1575 out back. Yet that car got 275s front and rear in SS trim, and the GT has 255s all around, while the new Camaro has 245s up front. They almost look like bicycle tires, because 245mm is so narrow for how tall they are at 28 inches (compared to 25.4 inches for the 275/40R17s on my car). I really think the could dial out some of the understeer and body roll from the current Camaro and make strides toward the car comparing more favorably in the handling feel department.
All that said, if nothing changes for the Camaro for 2011, then yes, the Mustang seems to have a small edge in overall performance.
From what I have been able to gather, it's not so much the weight of the car that is the most important factor in the car's ability to avoid a collision. Weight distribution and center of gravity play a bigger part in dynamic safety.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...g#encyclopedia
As always, happy to be corrected.
Oh, and have a great day, Z284ever!
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...g#encyclopedia
As always, happy to be corrected.
Oh, and have a great day, Z284ever!
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...72&postcount=1
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=17
11-18-2011, 10:06 PM
#51
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
im smiling on the inside that we are having a debate about cars with this much power and the fact that for 10 Grand we can get 600 rwhp this is a great time to be a Muscle car fan Like I have posted before in 2004 we had nothing,
I went to the dealership when I could finally afford a new Car and no Camaro the first year GTO i didnt dig (wound with an 05 later on) so I left with a 2004 Silverado SS great truck but no Camaro , back then I was like well we have no Camaro and the rumor around here about the plant not letting GM use the name or whatever it didnt look good so every now and again im stepping back and thinking of how lucky we are to be living in the the Golden age of Muscle ( powerwise at least )
The Stang will be a beast im sure we should all be thankfull its being built, the competition is going to benefit us all hell it already has
The debate is good people haveb good points I my self would have liked the ZL1 to weight a bit less but I have a gut feeling its far from over
I went to the dealership when I could finally afford a new Car and no Camaro the first year GTO i didnt dig (wound with an 05 later on) so I left with a 2004 Silverado SS great truck but no Camaro , back then I was like well we have no Camaro and the rumor around here about the plant not letting GM use the name or whatever it didnt look good so every now and again im stepping back and thinking of how lucky we are to be living in the the Golden age of Muscle ( powerwise at least )
The Stang will be a beast im sure we should all be thankfull its being built, the competition is going to benefit us all hell it already has
The debate is good people haveb good points I my self would have liked the ZL1 to weight a bit less but I have a gut feeling its far from over
11-19-2011, 05:10 AM
#52
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
This type of answer is really starting to grasp at straws here and more like what you would find at Camaro5. I hate to see this much bitterness over here. I liked this site soo much better when the people were more objective.
Is the GT500 better and going to outrun the ZL1? On paper it's not looking good for GM but I have no doubt GM will leapfrog the Mustang in the next few years. Rinse and Repeat process to infinity.
This. Tell the guys at Lotus that their cars are ill handling.
Is the GT500 better and going to outrun the ZL1? On paper it's not looking good for GM but I have no doubt GM will leapfrog the Mustang in the next few years. Rinse and Repeat process to infinity.
This. Tell the guys at Lotus that their cars are ill handling.
The Mustang with 650HP would have a 5.92lbs to HP ratio.
Our beloved Porker the Camaro would now be at 5.93LBS to HP
Somebody tell GM to call Jenny Craig
11-21-2011, 10:38 AM
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11-21-2011, 11:45 AM
#54
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
How about this one then? https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...8&postcount=21
Well, Camaro did "only" get 4/5 stars in the government's front impact crash test, I remember it taking a bit of ribbing for that considering how extra weight was supposed to mean "extra safety" according to some circles...
Not sure if it was "no room" or if it was relocated for better weight distribution. Racers do this all the time.
EDIT: The other thing to note is the battery location of the Zeta Camaro... given Camaro is considered a large car, it's ironic that there is no room for the battery under the hood. So, how much better will Alpha be insofar as packaging in this regard?
I'm really looking forward to the magazine comparisons. C&D better bring both of these cars to their Lightning Lap this year!
11-21-2011, 06:59 PM
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
Weight distribution is very important to a cars handling capability. Last year I went to a police drive event for the new Caprice PPV. I took in some hot laps with a GM tech on the Caprice PPV development team. He told me that the "Caprice PPV would flat out handle the Camaro SS". I looked at him like he was crazy, then he started talking about the weight distribution and the Caprice has almost perfect weight distribution.
Here is a little video I shot that day.
(click on the image to play the video)
Here is a little video I shot that day.
(click on the image to play the video)
11-22-2011, 07:51 AM
#56
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
Weight distribution is far from the end all, be all of handling. If that were the case then the most winning car in the history of racing wouldn't have something like a 39/61 weight distribution.
Until an actual head to head comparison is made you can keep trying to find objective ways for the ZL1 to be better.
Until an actual head to head comparison is made you can keep trying to find objective ways for the ZL1 to be better.
11-22-2011, 07:58 AM
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
I don't think anyone is saying that it is, but it is a factor. Handling isn't about just one thing, as most of us know.
You are referring to Porsche, correct?
If that were the case then the most winning car in the history of racing wouldn't have something like a 39/61 weight distribution.
11-22-2011, 07:59 AM
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
Anyway, it wasn't the point of the thread to debate the weight distribution of the cars, just to point out that GM called out Ford and they declined. Since it's a Camaro board there's no surprise that most people will rally behind something like this for various reasons, as these are exciting automotive times we're in!
If you want to skew the context of the letter into GM calling out Ford then actually it was Ford who first threw down the gauntlet by dropping news of the GT500 on the same day as the ZL1 was released.
Regardless, if GM was actually serious in calling out Ford then why didn't they invite them to Road America, Willow Springs, or Laguna Seca and not some overhyped roadway half a world away?
11-22-2011, 08:01 AM
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
Yes sir. More wins on a global level than any other make in history. All with a horrible weight distribution and admittedly terrible chassis layout.
11-22-2011, 08:12 AM
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Re: Open Letter from Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser RE: the 650-horsepower GT50
I agree with Jacob, this are simply awesome times to be a performance car enthusiast. 10 years ago, we would have never guessed we would be where we are today.
Yes sir. More wins on a global level than any other make in history. All with a horrible weight distribution and admittedly terrible chassis layout.
I think a rear-engine Camaro would look hideous.