ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
01-14-2006, 09:52 PM
#46
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Personally, I think it makes more sense for Pontiac to have a GTO, (that is, a traditional 5 passenger GTO, which could compete directly with the Challenger), than to have a Firebird. But at any rate, there's no money to get from killing a GTO. GTO production will cease in 8 months - with an uncertain future.
Regarding "so what" if Firebird cannibalizes Camaro....well.......Camaro IS the program my man. Taking money away from Camaro to create a car which will cannibalize it -in both sales and developement money - is kinda stupid. And if Camaro is underfunded, sales will suffer, jeopardizing the entire program. Say goodbye to Firebird then as well.
Regarding "so what" if Firebird cannibalizes Camaro....well.......Camaro IS the program my man. Taking money away from Camaro to create a car which will cannibalize it -in both sales and developement money - is kinda stupid. And if Camaro is underfunded, sales will suffer, jeopardizing the entire program. Say goodbye to Firebird then as well.
Why does Ford have Mercury? I don't buy this explanation, even GM admits to a Niche Market.
I believe there is a Case for the Firebird.
my boycott stands.
Last edited by TrackMagicWS6; 01-14-2006 at 10:00 PM.
01-14-2006, 10:15 PM
#47
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by TrackMagicWS6
Well, then why have a Torrent, doesn't that cut into Equinox sales? Same with GMC trucks and all Gm's lineup (Sky/Solstice? Especially since only 20k a year?!) , even the Vette/XLR?
Why does Ford have Mercury? I don't buy this explanation, even GM admits to a Niche Market.
I believe there is a Case for the Firebird.
my boycott stands.
Why does Ford have Mercury? I don't buy this explanation, even GM admits to a Niche Market.
I believe there is a Case for the Firebird.
my boycott stands.
But Vette/XLR......Now you've got something!!!!!! That's an analogy which would make a good Firebird. A Firebird worth having! Not a Camaro with the Pontiac styling package... but a distinct product. Just like the XLR, with unique sheetmetal, interior, engine and personality....all completely different than Corvette.
But like we said, a Firebird wouldn't sell in large numbers. So would alot of people pay a $10-$20,000 premium over Camaro to have that level of uniqueness? Doubt it.
01-14-2006, 10:23 PM
#48
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by Z284ever
But like we said, a Firebird wouldn't sell in large numbers. So would alot of people pay a $10-$20,000 premium over Camaro to have that level of uniqueness? Doubt it.
Why did they make the Solstice if they didn't plan to make money on(they said it).
Ideally I'd love a y-body chassis, but a Stretched kappa would be nice.
Edit: seems to me that GM is doing things backwards, save for the Vette/XLR,
One size does not fit all and they are cutting costs, but I think cutting costs loses them market share by losing customers, but what do I know?
Last edited by TrackMagicWS6; 01-14-2006 at 10:37 PM.
01-14-2006, 10:48 PM
#49
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by TrackMagicWS6
I don't comprehend why it has to? GM already has the engines/Platforms/assembly line, just need new Sheetmetal/SMC, and an interior.
I was using the XLR analogy...ie, all new sheetmetal, interior, powertrain, etc.
01-14-2006, 10:52 PM
#50
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by Z284ever
I was using the XLR analogy...ie, all new sheetmetal, interior, powertrain, etc.
01-14-2006, 11:05 PM
#51
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by Z284ever
.
But like we said, a Firebird wouldn't sell in large numbers. So would alot of people pay a $10-$20,000 premium over Camaro to have that level of uniqueness? Doubt it.
But like we said, a Firebird wouldn't sell in large numbers. So would alot of people pay a $10-$20,000 premium over Camaro to have that level of uniqueness? Doubt it.
Make the T/A a niche car maybe an M3 fighter (in keeping with Pontiacs new image as GMs BMW fighter) and I'm not just talking a stripe and spoiler package either, put some content into it so it's actually worth the premium price
01-14-2006, 11:28 PM
#52
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Let me know if this doesn't sound feasible.
Both F-bodies have never shared bodywork right, except a couple of un-important things like the sail panel in the 4th gen? I mean, same chassis/drivetrain but even though they looked similiar they have never had the same body panels. Also, both design teams worked independantly on designing the cars.
So, since this new camaro concept is so polarizing why can't they launch the firebird as a non retro car? Of course, it wouldn't be right away, let the new camaro settle in and see how if it succeeds, but if it sells well then maybe it would have a chance.
Both F-bodies have never shared bodywork right, except a couple of un-important things like the sail panel in the 4th gen? I mean, same chassis/drivetrain but even though they looked similiar they have never had the same body panels. Also, both design teams worked independantly on designing the cars.
So, since this new camaro concept is so polarizing why can't they launch the firebird as a non retro car? Of course, it wouldn't be right away, let the new camaro settle in and see how if it succeeds, but if it sells well then maybe it would have a chance.
01-14-2006, 11:41 PM
#53
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by RamAirBird2k2
Make the T/A a niche car maybe an M3 fighter (in keeping with Pontiacs new image as GMs BMW fighter)
01-14-2006, 11:47 PM
#54
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by Z284ever
You don't actually believe that BS, do you? I'd be happy if Pontiac became GM's Mazda.
01-15-2006, 03:54 PM
#55
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
[QUOTE=blackrat]Let me know if this doesn't sound feasible.
Both F-bodies have never shared bodywork right, except a couple of un-important things like the sail panel in the 4th gen? QUOTE]
First gens both mostly same sheetmetal
Both F-bodies have never shared bodywork right, except a couple of un-important things like the sail panel in the 4th gen? QUOTE]
First gens both mostly same sheetmetal
01-15-2006, 04:36 PM
#56
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by TrackMagicWS6
First gens both mostly same sheetmetal
Well, ok. But besides that they have basically been differant cars astetically (sp)speaking. Same basic idea but modified. What would keep it from going in a completely differant direction?
01-15-2006, 05:17 PM
#57
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by blackrat
Well, ok. But besides that they have basically been differant cars astetically (sp)speaking. Same basic idea but modified. What would keep it from going in a completely differant direction?
G.M.
01-15-2006, 05:49 PM
#58
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Originally Posted by TrackMagicWS6
I don't comprehend why it has to? GM already has the engines/Platforms/assembly line, just need new Sheetmetal/SMC, and an interior.
As part of a university competition, I'm currently in the process of helping build a small unmanned aerial vehicle. We're utilizing carbon fiber composites and are building tooling (ie molds) for the components.
We designed for symmetry to cut down on the number of components and thus molds. We have approximately 15 molds that don't have to be validated at anything remotely like what GM has to. We currently have approximately $15,000 tied up in just materials. Thats not counting actual engineering time, CNC machining time for our masters and labor. There's probably another $15,000-$20,000 in that.
Thats $35,000 for just a few small molds. My educated guess tells me you're talking several orders of magnitude above that for the necessary tooling for just the body panels and interior for a car.
I mean, hell, $100 million here, $100 million there, soon you're talking real money right?
01-15-2006, 07:04 PM
#59
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
Platform redundancy isn't smart, and I don't know why GM is continuing to do it. In this time of restructuring it would help if this was one of the changes GM made.
Look at the auto manufacturers who do well with more than one division, mainly Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity. You have the standard brand and a luxury brand, and that's IT.
GM isn't gaining anything by sharing a platorm with a different face to 3-5 different brands. It cheapens the whole platorm to the lowest level of that platform.
Have the Camaro, the upscale larger GTO for Pontiac, and be happy if GM figures that much out.
Look at the auto manufacturers who do well with more than one division, mainly Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity. You have the standard brand and a luxury brand, and that's IT.
GM isn't gaining anything by sharing a platorm with a different face to 3-5 different brands. It cheapens the whole platorm to the lowest level of that platform.
Have the Camaro, the upscale larger GTO for Pontiac, and be happy if GM figures that much out.
01-15-2006, 07:37 PM
#60
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Re: ok, so we've seen the new Camaro, is there any talk of a new firebird???
I can see the Firebird making production only in a limited way if they decided to do a low-volume version that used hyrdoformed sheet metal like the Solstice. The hydroforming would save money but also prevent high volume.
Still, I don't see it. It costs a lot of money to redo and interior and sheetmetal. Hydroforming would make the sheetmetal cheaper, but any sales that would have gone to Camaro would raise the Camaro price.
The most effective way to build this thing while keeping cost (for GM and the consumer) down is to build in volume under one badge. Two different nameplates fighting the Mustang puts GM at a competitive disadvantage because Ford only needs to engineer for one nameplate while GM has to engineer for two. By just making a Camaro, GM can take a shot at dethroning the Mustang or making a significant dent in sales. The average joe could care less about the Firebird. I already have talked to several people who aren't muscle car enthusiasts who've taken one look at the Camaro and instantly said they'd buy the V6 in a heartbeat. You need to keep the cost down for those people while also providing great options with the V8's for the people that want them.
Still, I don't see it. It costs a lot of money to redo and interior and sheetmetal. Hydroforming would make the sheetmetal cheaper, but any sales that would have gone to Camaro would raise the Camaro price.
The most effective way to build this thing while keeping cost (for GM and the consumer) down is to build in volume under one badge. Two different nameplates fighting the Mustang puts GM at a competitive disadvantage because Ford only needs to engineer for one nameplate while GM has to engineer for two. By just making a Camaro, GM can take a shot at dethroning the Mustang or making a significant dent in sales. The average joe could care less about the Firebird. I already have talked to several people who aren't muscle car enthusiasts who've taken one look at the Camaro and instantly said they'd buy the V6 in a heartbeat. You need to keep the cost down for those people while also providing great options with the V8's for the people that want them.