guionM

Actually that wouldn't be bad at all.

Much like a Camaro LT turned Berlinetta of the 70s. Real wood and metal interior trim done much like the latest from Audis loaded with standard equptment including navigation, and the top V8?




By the way, to those of you proposing these very expensive, ultra horsepower ideas, are you actually going to actually buy them yourself with your own cash?...... Could you?

For example, with the Mustang, the special editions available are all very much affordable, and barely cost more than the Mustang model it's based on.

Examples:

* The Bullitt was a Mustang GT with nice trim, Cobra brakes, and a mysterious tune that made the car notably quicker than a regular GT, despite supposedly no increase in horsepower.

* The Mach 1 used what was basically a retuned former DOHC Cobra engine, an axle ration, and a hood induction kit.

* Mustang Ponys are regular V6 Mustangs with a retro-like foglight grille.

* Bouncing over to Dodge, Charger Daytonas are R/Ts with essentially Viper seats, interior trim painted to match the exterior, and a suspension and brake tune topped off with special paint & stripes. Charger Super Bees are the same thing but based on the SRT8.

* Dodge Trucks have more special editions than I can immediately name, including Rumble Bee, and Daytona.

* Ford trucks have the King Ranch & the Harley Davidson.

* Mid-ninetys Impala SS was a special edition Caprice. Used seats from a Buick Roadmaster, suspension and brakes from the police version, a cheap plastic grille, and alot of black paint.


Cars like the GT500 aren't special editions, but the GT500KR is. You can say the 1997 Camaro SS was a special edition (limited, sold through Chevy dealers), but you can make the point that the later ones weren't, since there was no effort made to limit it's sales or production (Ford limits production of it's special edition Mustangs).


So, I'm just throwing this out there for everyone to think about. Creating a special edition car should IMHO be about making something that's different from the masses. It should be affordable and it should be something that's an easy sell to GM management. It should be something that's going to draw more intrest and attention to the car, and should have a halo effect on the rest of the line (meaning it will sell more regular Camaros).

All these high powered, expensive ideas are well and good. Cars from tuners and aftermarket people are likely to happen anyway, and are sort of outside GM. Saleen & Roush Mustangs aren't special edition Mustangs, they're tuners. I'd submit that the same might be said of GMMG.

Not shooting holes in ideas here. Some of these ideas with a bit more debate and polish can morph into some fantastic ideas.

It's just personally, although I like the Mustang GT and the Dodge Charger R/T, If I were buying the vehicles myself, I'd spend a few extra dollars to get a Mach 1 or a Daytona with a Road and Track Package. I WOULDN'T spend money on $40K+ GT500KR or a Charger that's over $40K....

...and I'm not exactly sure how quickly GM management would sign off on anything that involves more than stickers, interior trim, or parts that aren't already in the parts bin or engines that would have to be newly certified for the car.

Just my 2 cents.

CLEAN

Agree w/ these two points. I like the looks of the white Shelby GT cars. It won't win any bang for the buck awards, but it's a nice looking car.

And on the 2nd part, that was in line w/ my thinking on suggesting they stick to something like a 45th anniversary car that can be done w/ basically parts already on the shelf and minimum of investment. It would be great if they were of a mindset to SPEND some money for the special edition cars, but if recent history is any indication, we really can't expect that.

GTOJack

One of the 1000 Shelby GT500KRs with 540 hp would be well worth the sticker price, but that isnt going to happen. One thing Ford is doing to their Shelbys is changing the rear end gear ratio. If this can be done without recertifying the engine for the change in final drive ratio, GM should do it also to get better track numbers from a special edition car. 6 speed sticks with a 3.73 rear end shouldnt change the est. EPA fuel mileage, but it might on the A6.

ws6transam

So far I think I like the Penske tribute and QuionM's V6 edition ideas the best. However I also REALLY REALLY like the 1993 Indy pace car Camaro. That car was my original inspiration for the CamaroZ28.com special edition idea. I'd like to see a super-sharp interior like the '93 pace car again.

jaymac332

COPO or ZL1...I dont know if Yenko really works, no matter how cool it is. Yenko was never an in-house thing, kind of like Shelby and Ford even though Ford is kind of riding Shelbys wave by using his name. But yeah, I think COPO would be awesome.

hyperv6

While I would love to see some special editions like a Penskie or a Yunick Camaro. I also have seen some things I don't want to see.

What I don't want to see are any special editions that are just a paint job and stickers. I know these are cheap to produce and do not take a lot of extra work. But today most Anniversery editions are pretty lame.

Cars like the Turbo V6 Trans Am pace cars are true special editions. Also GNX Buicks are true special editions.

I guess my point is if you want a true special car it take more than paint and stickers.

Now to do this and retain cost Chevy may offer new parts not used till the following year in the next years regular Camero's.

Special grills or tail lights that could become regular production in a later model. Offer engines or performance parts off the Vette that can be crossed over for a special model with out incurring high cost.

Also It is time to think out side of the box and make new special models that have no past. I think it is the cheap easy way out to slap a old name of Z number on a car and claim it to be special. A ZL1 may sound cool but once you consider what a real ZL1 really was it does not fit todays car. I would rather see a ZL2 as the son of a ZL1. A continuation update of the line you might say.

It is better to build on the past than just try to relive it with a copy that is not reeally a copy.

Also if GM does make a paint and sticker car with only a few mods like the Bullit Stang, retire it after you havew done it once. It is lame to keep seeing the same special edition ever couple years.

The Camaro is a special car and deserves better than a cheap paint and wheel package make over like Mazda does on the Miata.

I just hope there is a economical way Chevy can address special models in the past.

The bottom line is I don't want to see them do what Dodge did with the Charger and slap on a stripe on a easter egg paint job and then top it with a bad 70's wing. GM has done better in the past and can do better today.

Also I do like the Special V6 editions as this is the affordable car and is going to be the money car. It will make it a more appealing car along with the fact the higher gas prices may increase the interest. It would stand it out from the standard V6 Mustang.

Rampant

Good point, but for me, it would come down to build quality. I wouldn't buy a $40k Mustang because it still looks like a $15k car outside the engine bay.

However, if the Camaro has good quality and a well-built interior (free from rattles), I would definitely be willing to spend $45k or so for a 427 Camaro. Conversely, if it has a poor interior/build quality, I probably won't be interested in anything more than the base V8 with a similar Mach 1/Daytona R&T package.

FWIW, I am also considering the Challenger SRT-8 (when it comes out), the 335i, S5 and G37 (though, admittedly the last three are very different types of cars). In the end it will come down to the right balance of emotion/fun and quality (naturally skewed towards the emotion/fun end of the spectrum). I am just waiting (and saving) to see what happens when the dust settles.

guionM

There are a few that arguably pass:

* The 35th Anniversary Camaro
* Impala SS
* The 30th anniversary Camaro
* The Black & Gold Trans Am from 1977
* The current Charger Daytona & Super Bee.
* Every production version Indy Pace Car
* Buick's Grand National (nothing more than a blacked out Regal T-Type).

The special editions you point out were extremely expensive "tuner" cars.

The Turbo Trans Am was outsourced to PAS INC of Industry California. The motors were shipped up to Van Nuys to be installed on Pontiac Trans Am GTAs (which were special editions in themselves), and then the cars were shipped back to PAS where they did the rest of the mods. A mere 1500 were made.

The Turbo Trans Am also had a 1989 MSRP of $31,232!!
Just to put that into perspective, in 1989 a Formula Firebird cost $14,340 and a Trans Am cost $16,400.


The Buick GNX was done by McLauren/ASC and for all intents and purposes, barely exists: Just 547 were made. This was even more a tuner car than the TTA.

The GNX in 1987 cast a staggering $30,000! To compare, the Grand National started at $17,000 that year. That same year, an IROC Camaro convertible, loaded to the gills cost $18,000. A 5.0 Mustang LX still ran a mere $12,000.

Don't start with one-for-the-price-of-two ZR1 Corvette that started out at $58,000 in 1990 and grew to $65,000 by '95.

Like I mentioned in the last post, who's going to buy these things???


Anything that involves outside sourcing, any change to the engine by an outside source, or shipping the car someplace else is going to wind up costing money. Shelby and Ford have essentially the most cost effective relationship (the Shelby GT is a GT with Ford's own competition suspension and performance induction bolted on, and it still cost 6K more than a comprable Mustang GT).




I think this idea has potential. I mentioned Corvette brakes and rims, they shouldn't be an issue at all moving them to the Camaro. Other performance parts might be, since both cars are entirely different chassis. Hopefully, alot of Camaro's parts are based on Corvette.

I couldn't have said it better myself!


Exactly! Ford does this on purpose.


Actually, GM has a tendancy more than most (especially with Camaro) to rely on tape and paint jobs for special editions. Ford tends to pump a little money into their special editions. But the Charger and Ram special editions, though not much more than tape and interior trim jobs come off quite well IMO. The Rumble Bee is the only way I'd buy a Dodge Truck, and if I bought a Charger, it would be Daytona hands down over a regular R/T.

Again, I couldn't have said it better myself.

IntimidatorSS

WOW.....the great Fbodfather started a thread inspired by mine? I'm honored though your's will and does have more meaning.

I really liked the V6 Package guionM described. I would go with what he described though I'd add more goodies that would attract the younger buyers like a premium sound system, power windows and locks, keyless entry, optional color keyed interior in the style of the Cobalt SS (the more younger buyer likes to be able to have a more personal more unique car) offer a wide range of colors, like have the traditional shades but also have like dark gray, and a few different shades of blue besides one too dark or too purple or too light offer a few, along with the red's and oranges and yellows as well maybe even throw in a teal or a green and a purple as well. You want to be able to offer something unique. Offer many colors as possible so when you have a younger buyer look at the Camaro they don't get turned away that half the color options are a version of pewter or silver or white and black. Maybe even make it available for the buyer to order customized body pannels, spoilers, grills and hoods. Maybe even work with outside companies to provide the stuff to order and make it easily available. Make this car desirable so people don't have to go and customize it to make it unique.

I also think some racing inspired packages honoring chevy's racing history would be nice as well. Of course the Sunoco Trans Am Edition in style of the famous #6 camaro would be fitting but I think that a "Intimidator" edition would be great as well. Though some shudder at the fact of NASCAR being involved with their camaro, but like it or not NASCAR and Chevy has had alot of history together as well. Though I dunno how well a Intimidator edition would work in 2009 or later it would have been better suited if it was around the time of the MC and Silverado editions. Though if you want to honor any race car driver make the car honorable and not just a few badges or stickers or whatever on the car. Make the car so that the person is getting honored would be proud of the car as well.

I think a Bumble Bee edition Camaro would work great as well. The camaro has never had it's big blockbuster movie to shine in until now. The Firebird, and Mustang has both had time in movies and tv shows and if the movie is a great hit and the positive reaction of the camaro in it is great then I think a movie themed camaro would do nothing but help the Camaro's sales and appeal as well.

You want to have a SE camaro to be able to reach out to a broader base of buyers and try to appeal to them if you want the car to be successful. Though I feel that the V6 camaro needs to be made as desirable if not more than the V8 version cause your sales will come from the V6 sales. You need to attract the young mid 20's drivers along with appealing to the ones that are starting to drive as well along with the parents buying these cars for their children. That's how you'll sale the V6. The V6 needs to be as cool as the V8 so to speak. It seems to me that the mustang has accomplished this and you got to study and see how the Mustang has done this and improve upon it

Gripenfelter

I didn't read through this thread so I will apologize for any repetition.

RS model featuring a 300 hp V6 and ground effects kit with RS specific rims.

1LE model with the base V8 and stripped down to the bare essentials. No power anything but has a power steering and oil cooler with stiffer bushings.

SS model with the base V8 and full power/luxury options. Maybe even a factory GPS system integrated into the HUD.

Z28 (not Z/28 or Z-28) with the big motor (500 hp) and all the options with Z28 specific rims.

ZL1 would be the top dog with a functional ZL1 big block ram air hood (see avatar), different rims, different side skirts or different front bumper (maybe move the fog lights closer together and change the shape), freer flowing exhaust with butterfly valves and give it a bit more power, maybe 525 hp.

And of course I agree with other posters in this thread about having a Bumble Bee version in yellow with black stripes and an autobot symbol on the steering wheel and centercaps of all wheels. If possible have it signed by the directors/producers of the movie.

In later years you can have a NASCAR version.

Definately a white pace car version like the 93s. No blue or yellow please.

camarolvr69

How about a Sprewell Racing Heritage Edition Camaro?

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...amaro_feature/

Its got several nice features that I think could be incorporated into a 2009 model. Like supercharger, custom wheels, Nittos,BAER brakes, exhaust, and some nice appearance upgrades.

If a new one was to be made, I think more could be done as far as horsepower, and could feature some suspension upgrades.

hyperv6

Of the list you have.

The 35th Anniversary Camaro
* Impala SS
* The 30th anniversary Camaro
* The Black & Gold Trans Am from 1977
* The current Charger Daytona & Super Bee.
* Every production version Indy Pace Car
* Buick's Grand National (nothing more than a blacked out Regal T-Type).

Only the Impala SS, 1976-1979 TA, and Indy Pace car do I consider anything special. I also will accept the GN and T type as they were the only cars in the Reagles line up with a true performance drivetrain.

The only reason I give a pass to the TA is because it was the first to take the Stickers and paint to make it special. After it all others are just copies.

Anyway it is just my opinion.

As for the cost I know the other cars were farmed out like many of GM's projects. I also know they need to keep cost in line but to me we are paying more for these so called limited editions we should get more than a sticker package. We need a bone like a real Hurst shifter , at least the Husrts Olds in the 80's had Lightning Rods to set it apart.

In my opinion with the prices paid on many of these sticker cars most buyers would be willing to pay a litttle more for some real special touches. They don't have to be as extreem as the GNX but they need something.

I know the 78 Vette pace cars had 1979 seats and spoilers a year before you could buy them. I know the 1997 SSEI 40th ann edition has at least paint not available till 1998. Recaro TA's has different seats.

Even the 10 ANN TA was available with the 400 4 speed at the end when it was near impossible to get it in any other TA.

All I ask it to think outside the box we have been in and offer something that really make the car special and worth an extra $5K-8K.

I know GM can do better and I expect they will as we look to have real car people calling shots and giving us a chance at some real special cars.

I son't disagree much with what you have but just a little. If you don't hold you expectations a littel high you never going to get improvment. We need to let Chevy know they can do better and expecty them to give us their best efforts and not cop out on paint and stickers only.

Even Ford did the California Specials on the dealer level with Shelby tail lights and scoops. They are special today because of it.

Oh one last thing , No fake scoops everything must work. The Mustang fails here in a big way. If it does not work leave it off.

3rdGenNut

I'll take mine in a Z28 vert version, but these would be good for a laugh.
motor in a box
diesel camaro
hydrogen camaro
zeropoint camaro(plugs into house and supplies 1kw)
magnet motor camaro
back to the future camaro (levitates and/or travels thru time)
XYZFR camaro(twin turbo, nitrous, 4-banger)
lonely guy camaro(dual-purpose fuel filler neck)

fasteddie94

What I would want in a special edition...... well simplicity for the most part.

No navigation, onstar, heated seats, blah blah blah. It's a waste for me and I won't buy one with any of that stuff anyway. Navigation? I drive four miles to work, god help me if I get lost.

Real gauges, the less idiot lights the better. I want to know exactly what my car is doing at any given time. Just the usual package speedo, tach, oil pressure, temp, gas, and battery.

Normal rims. I don't want a 18/19/20 inch wheel. 17's at the max. Hell I'd be happy with 15" prostars.

Solid axle with decent gears. I'm sure IRS is great and all but I want to be able to beat on this thing a little, and when i do not have to worry about wheel hop or snapping half shafts. That said a BEEFY axle with 3.73 gears in M6 and however it works out best with the auto. I guess a 3.42 if we can expect the A6 to be similar to the 4l60e. I'm not up to date on it by any means.

A F'n blower. No super duper 427 with 600 hp just the novelty of a supercharger. Let's face it, they are cool and catch attention, look at the cobras and lightnings, there is a definate "Wow" factor there, and they are a blast to drive. Most folks, including me, won't be able to drop 4K, 5K, or 6K, for an aftermarket kit that needs odds and ins parts to function properly without killing our brand new car. An increase in monthly payment is easier then another bill.

I'm not asking for a ZO6 killer here but something fun. I see the axle and supercharger being common mods once people can afford them anyway, why not have the option to get it right off the bat. If it isn't fast enough there's always the pulley swap. I don't need stickers and a bunch of bells and whistles. Power windows and locks are enough.

guionM

We aren't talking "true performance drivetrain", we're talking special editions.

Agreed.

Actually, the 10 anniversary had left over engines Pontiac had laying around. The 10th got the 400 after Pontiac stopped making them!

(More accurately, Pontiac had a certain number of TA 6.6 engines left because they stopped making them. They set aside a number of them for the anniversary edition and sold the rest till they ran out. It's engine wasn't "special". Pontiac felt that the special edition TA should be powered by a Pontiac performance engine... even if they didn't make it anymore.)

You lost me here. I get the feeling we're talking about creating a tape and stripe package, and charge an extra $8-10,000, which is so far from reality as to fall under fiction. Can't name any car that came with an $8K-$10K paint & tape package.

What I think Scott is fishing for is a car that can be made is limited numbers and cost not much over a few thousand more than the model it's based on. Much like the cars I mentioned, that are very low risk, very easy to make profitable, and anyone who wants something different can buy with very little more in monthly payments.


But, again, posting the question: "Who's going to buy them?"

If the answer is anyone here who wants them and can afford the model it's based on, then we're on to something.

If the answer is rich collectors, then the question becomes "What is the purpose of making a special edition, then??"

At what level do high expectations reach diminishing returns?

How do you measure high expectations?

Is it measured in quarter mile times? Is it measured in being an attractive car? When you start talking about high expectations, you start dealing with ideas (or people) that are never satisfied.

One car that has been placed on a pedestal for years, the Pontiac GTO "Judge" was itself barely nothing more than a paint an decal job. There was not one single solitary item on a Judge besides those 2 things that weren't available on a regular GTO.


The Mustang doesn't fail. Look at sales. Visit a Mustang gathering. Talk to Mustang owners. Look on the streets. Even some trucks carry fake scoops. 99.99% of the population think it's cool, agressive, or could care less if it works or not.

As far as the California specials, you are talking about a vehicle that was made 40 years ago when regulations were comparitively nonexistent when compered to today when every aspect of a car is regulated. Simply doing a new hood profile requires crash testing (why the new GTO didn't get hood scoops till it's 2nd year).


Not trying to dynamite your bridge here. But any special edition Camaro that's going to come out within a year or so after introduction is going to need to be a cosmetic package of tape, wheels, and paint; or a set of components from the parts bin that not only bolt right on, but needs little certification; or both.

Anything that involves GM lawyers negotiating royalties is a nonstarter. Anything where GM runs the risk of losing money on the package isn't going to fly. I don't see any of these proposals seeing the light of day 'as-is', including mine. I'm sure using Z06 rims w/ Goodyear F1 supercar tires and it's massive 6 piston front, 4 piston rear brakes with cross drilled calipers and the 3.6 V6 upgrade will probally cost quite a bit more than the $3-4K I proposed over the price of a base model Camaro with the less powerful V6 and essentially Holden Commodore family car pieces.

BUT... that's where you start trading off between pricing and equptment. My Z06 brakes might not be feasible at the price, but perhaps a version of the Z28 or SS' rotors could be cross drilled and the calipers painted. Maybe the 300 horse 3.6 can't be had at 23K, but it can be done at $23.5K. Maybe a trading that 6 speed manual for a 5 speed will free up enough money to have a more aggressive axle ratio. Setting high standards in this instance would likely get you nowhere. Being flexible and willing to accept tradeoffs is probally going to actually get you what you want.

I'm certain special editions along the line of the Ron Fellows Z06 and the Corvette Pacecar (cars with a markup of about 10%) are probally what they're aiming for, if that helps anyone.