NEWS: REPORT: Chevrolet's Camaro convertible delayed, Z28 facing cancellation

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03-21-2009, 05:03 AM

#31

teal98

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Z284ever

And yes, if you are saying that my idea of a Z/28 is not a 4200 lbs, nose heavy, supercharged, Camaro GT500 -- then you are correct. And I've said exactly that to Bob Lutz, Gene Stefanyshyn, John Hienricy and a bunch of other people.

I agree with you here. I don't think that GM or Chevy need this model. If anything, the Z28 should be a lighter version of the SS -- maybe with the LS7. Even if the LS7 were more expensive than an LSA, it would be lighter, and I'd much rather see a 3850 pound 500hp car than a 4200 pound (or even 4050 if that's what they could bring it in at) 556hp car.

But even a hotrodded LS3 that got another 15hp and dropped 50 pounds and added a few chassis upgrades would probably be enough, and that would not be as costly.

I'm reminded that the biggest engine on the regular options list in the gen2 Camaro was the 402. The 454 never made it. And the 402 (396 by name) was a nose-heavy car that really had no advantage over the LT1 350.

03-21-2009, 03:18 PM

#32

Z284ever

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Quote:

Originally Posted by teal98

But by now, you know that was wishful thinking. There's no way you build a car with that much power, IRS, meeting current safety standards, at that price point, at 3500 pounds.

Well Jeremy, you always say that as if I conjured those numbers up in a peyote induced hallucination. Those numbers were relayed directly to me from the Camaro team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by teal98

The articles out yesterday are all positive. They all mention the weight, but it doesn't seem to be the killer you thought it would be. 13 flat 1/4s at 111mph, while getting 16/24 EPA. Sure, it could be a hundred or two pounds lighter, but that seems like whining about paying taxes on the million dollar lottery you just won.

I was really happy to see that the tested cars all came in under 3900 pounds -- even the automatics. So many times a car that is listed at 3850 on the spec sheet ends up over 4000 when a test car is put on the scales. I hope that the production models are just as light as these pre-production examples. In this case, the autos actually came in under the 3900+ on the spec sheet (don't know how that happened -- maybe not a full tank of gas, last minute spec change?).

The 2010 auto tested by MT came in at 3846 pounds. My 2002 w/o T-tops is about 3510. Since the Camaro skipped a generation, the net gain is about 10% in two generations, which is pretty much what happened to most of the rest of the market (with a couple of notable exceptions).

I think I've read all the reports now, and yes they've all been positive - as they should be. But as you said, weight was mentioned in every single one of them. I don't think this is the time to pick every nit, but it wasn't mentioned in a positive way. One of the tests (R&T?) compares the SS's slalom speed to the GT Track Pack's - the Mustang fairly obliterates it, even with a more rudimentary suspension and 100 less hp. Care to guess what the reason is for that?

BTW, I'm pretty sure that MT flip-flopped the A6 and M6 weights, I noticed that too.

03-21-2009, 04:05 PM

#33

downwithmustang

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Quote:

Originally Posted by STOCK1SC

Have GM get up to speed on the direct injection LS3 and stick it in there and call it the Z28 and add some handling equipment.

Along with Dry-sump oiling system, carbon fiber pieces, longtube, and new exhaust system.

Last edited by downwithmustang; 03-21-2009 at 04:15 PM.

03-21-2009, 10:29 PM

#34

King Moose SS

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This whole discussion on the Z/28 depends on one thing. Regular camaro sales, as of right now GM is in a lock because of the huge loan it took from the government.

If the sales of Camaro are hot, GM WILL BRING THE Z/28, and the concept model they had of it. Since there High Performance Division is disbanded as of right now, thats the only z/28 they can release, because thats the only one they designed.

The reason why the z/28 will come back if the camaro is hot, is because GM has a loan to pay off, and the government wants the money back ASAP. If GM can claim this car makes money, the government won't care what they sell.

03-22-2009, 06:26 AM

#35

teal98

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Z284ever

Well Jeremy, you always say that as if I conjured those numbers up in a peyote induced hallucination. Those numbers were relayed directly to me from the Camaro team.

Maybe they were smoking the peyote. Maybe that was in the context of a V6. Maybe they were not considering the IRS. Maybe they weren't taking into account 2010 safety standards. I don't know -- I wasn't there. Who on the Camaro team, anyway? Engineering? Marketing? Accounting? Whoever it was, I'd say that evidence suggests that that number was quite optimistic, if not wildly so. So as I said, "by now you know that was wishful thinking" or at least I thought so.

Last edited by teal98; 03-22-2009 at 06:37 AM.

03-22-2009, 08:16 AM

#36

christianjax

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Well with the new Tax Happy administration, perhaps there could be some serious tax breaks for buying domestic and even a higher tax on buying an import? That could turn things around for the big 3. IF that doesn't work, may I suggest that we each beotch slap everyone we know that drives an import.

Kidding of course.................or am I?

03-22-2009, 08:28 AM

#37

97QuasarBlue3.8

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Posts: 1,023

For one, I can't understand how it costs $50M to put together another model of Camaro. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but then again maybe that's why GM is having so many issues with money. And Ford doesn't seem to have a problem with Convertible tops...

I think Katy Perry might have just made GM's new theme song regarding Camaro models:

You change your mind
Like a girl changes clothes
Yeah, you PMS like a bitch
I would know

And you always think
Always speak cryptically
I should know
That you're no good for me

'Cause you're hot then you're cold
You're yes then you're no
You're in and you're out
You're up and you're down
You're wrong when it's right
It's black and it's white
We fight, we break up
We kiss, we make up

You, you don't really wanna stay, no
You, but you don't really wanna go, oh

......

03-22-2009, 09:51 AM

#38

Z284ever

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Quote:

Originally Posted by teal98

Maybe they were?

(just kidding). Actually it was for the V8/IRS package we have now. I had some 'deepthroat' sources in the bowels of General Motors who were familiar with Zeta back then. They warned me extremely early on, that Zeta was not capable of hitting those numbers. But hope springs eternal.

Maybe next time.....

03-22-2009, 10:13 AM

#39

Z284ever

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Quote:

Originally Posted by King Moose SS

If the sales of Camaro are hot, GM WILL BRING THE Z/28, and the concept model they had of it. Since there High Performance Division is disbanded as of right now, thats the only z/28 they can release, because thats the only one they designed.

That's not necessarily true. GM could come up with a different package for the Z/28 - it's not like they have no engineering capability.

But it needs to have a certain level of focus to it. I know what I would do, but at this point, that's neither here nor there.

03-22-2009, 12:27 PM

#40

2010_5thgen

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonD

Some pics of the vert surfaced a whole back, and it held the hard top lines very well. Better than most convertibles.

i agree. im not a fan of convertables but it looked really really nice.

03-22-2009, 12:44 PM

#41

TTopJohn

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I wouldn't get too worked up about this. "cancelled" and "on hold" aren't permanent situations - plenty of cars and options have been cancelled and put on hold and had funding removed, but still ended up getting produced. I'm confident that the Convertible will come about (supplier issues get worked out all the time), and that we'll see a Z28 with an LS9 about a year after that, regardless of any cancellations or delays.

03-22-2009, 12:47 PM

#42

JasonD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TTopJohn

That's right. I know of one in particular...just can't think of the name of it at the moment...

03-22-2009, 07:15 PM

#43

King Moose SS

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Z284ever

Thats true, but I don't think GM would have put all this money and hype into the Z/28 if thats not gonna be there Z/28.

What could possibly happen is a name change. Remeber the concept Corvette SS/ Z07/ Blue Devil.... that later became the ZR-1.

03-22-2009, 09:30 PM

#44

detroitboy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 97QuasarBlue3.8

How about crash testing costs alone for a Camaro without the strength of a roof? And of course the engineering that goes along with it before the tests, during the tests, and after the tests. Big $$$$

03-23-2009, 01:28 AM

#45

teal98

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Z284ever

Maybe they were?

We'll see. I think IRengineer in the Alpha thread was much closer to a realistic number.

Part of the difference could be curb versus shipping weight.

I think of the F4 as a 3500 pounds car, because that's what mine weighs (premium package + auto, no T-tops, no RS). I can't see adding wheel base, adding rigidity, adding power, adding airbags and other safety equipment, adding IRS without adding weight. And it's pretty expensive to take that back off via aluminum, carbon fiber, etc. But maybe if you consider the F4 as a 3350 pound car, 3500 is at least ballpark, though still an aggressive target.

Or maybe you considered F4 to be overweight? (I didn't)

I'm not intending to be difficult. 3500 just seems so impossible to me w/o major $$ in lightweight materials, given the above, so I'm very curious how one would come up with that. Give back the above, (return to 101" wheelbase, etc.), that's different.
Anyway, I realize that this may be a mystery whose answer is never revealed to me.