Motortrend judges Camaro SS last of 10 "driver's cars"
08-20-2009, 05:16 PM
#32
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I believe the GTO would have faired exceptionally well. Perhaps, significantly better than Camaro.
The list is about driver's cars, not "people's-reaction-to-seeing-them" cars. The more I try out Camaro's interior, the less I like it. Once the excitement wears down a bit, that interior does seem a bit claustraphobic, the dash isn't exactly Camaro's strong point, and a few areas inside do seem cheaper and flimsier than not only the new Mustang, but the Challenger as well. The surrounding enviroment sitting in the GTO's seat is the exact opposite of the Camaros.
A quick look at the numbers between the GTO and the SS is a bit of an eye opener. The GTO matches the SS in 0-60, beats the SS on every rolling start catagory, brakes 5 feet shorter from 70 mph, reaches a higher skidpad (88g vs 85) and gets 3 more mpg on the highway*. Also, ther's no recurring mention of understeer with the GTO.
Add in the better visibility and the perception better quality of interior materials (or evidently better durability of same assembled interior parts), and that 0.3 second advantage SS has in the 1/4 mile doesn't seem to be enough IMO to top the GTO as a driver's car.
The list is about driver's cars, not "people's-reaction-to-seeing-them" cars. The more I try out Camaro's interior, the less I like it. Once the excitement wears down a bit, that interior does seem a bit claustraphobic, the dash isn't exactly Camaro's strong point, and a few areas inside do seem cheaper and flimsier than not only the new Mustang, but the Challenger as well. The surrounding enviroment sitting in the GTO's seat is the exact opposite of the Camaros.
A quick look at the numbers between the GTO and the SS is a bit of an eye opener. The GTO matches the SS in 0-60, beats the SS on every rolling start catagory, brakes 5 feet shorter from 70 mph, reaches a higher skidpad (88g vs 85) and gets 3 more mpg on the highway*. Also, ther's no recurring mention of understeer with the GTO.
Add in the better visibility and the perception better quality of interior materials (or evidently better durability of same assembled interior parts), and that 0.3 second advantage SS has in the 1/4 mile doesn't seem to be enough IMO to top the GTO as a driver's car.
and while the Camaro will outhandle the GTO the GTO is a better driver. The
comparison I am making of course is GTO vs 4th Gen. From what I have seen
of the 5th Gen .. GM has room for improvement, and in some areas that isnt
an easy fix. Many of the problems are set, with the ultra high waist and that
chopped roof (which fails the "Big Gulp" test) visibility is what it is. The GTO
could use a bigger trunk, which is Pontiacs fault for sticking the gas tank into
the trunk. This is one of the upgrades I have planned - moving to the Holden
location. The opening to the Camaro trunk is laughably small, though a larger
trunk, it doesnt look like you can get anything large into it. I havent driven a
5th Gen yet ... but I am not in a hurry.
Tom
08-20-2009, 07:42 PM
#33
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I think Motor Trend is sort of stupid but if you look at the list of cars then it is painfully obvious why the Camaro is dead last. The only surprise is that the ZR1 isn't even in the top 5.
I don't work at GM but I wonder if it would have really cost any more to setup the Camaro's suspension and tires in a why to utilize more of the potential of the platform. I can't really see how loads of understeer is any cheaper than a more neutral balance... spec different springs or tires or bars or what-have-you. Even if there was a Z28 coming out I don't think that is much of an excuse for the issues with the SS. It isn't like it is the economy base car. Hell, if you want make a track pack and charge $1500 for new sway bars, grippier pads and maybe even summer only tires.
It isn't like this is some sort of new problem though. Out of the box the 4th Gen's were ok but really only the SLP optioned cars or 1LE cars felt decent to go around the turns since shocks were so horrendous on the standard cars and the front bar was a tad too small.
As far as the GTO goes, if it was in the test with the other cars I imagine it would have probably finished maybe 2 or 3 places above the Camaro.
The Miata is small and underpowered. And while it isn't too terribly fast, since it seems pretty fast around the corners and is responsive you can forgive it for being underpowered and it is fun to drive.
I don't know how I feel about the ZR1's place. On the one had it pretty much destroyed everyone else. On the other I bet it is difficult to drive at the limit on Laguna Seca. It's limit is so much further than the other cars that is just common sense. I wonder if it would have scored the same if they limited it to 80% throttle? It might have been easier to drive and still outran most all the other cars
The 2010 with PTM is going to be significantly easier to drive than the 2009 as well.
I don't work at GM but I wonder if it would have really cost any more to setup the Camaro's suspension and tires in a why to utilize more of the potential of the platform. I can't really see how loads of understeer is any cheaper than a more neutral balance... spec different springs or tires or bars or what-have-you. Even if there was a Z28 coming out I don't think that is much of an excuse for the issues with the SS. It isn't like it is the economy base car. Hell, if you want make a track pack and charge $1500 for new sway bars, grippier pads and maybe even summer only tires.
It isn't like this is some sort of new problem though. Out of the box the 4th Gen's were ok but really only the SLP optioned cars or 1LE cars felt decent to go around the turns since shocks were so horrendous on the standard cars and the front bar was a tad too small.
As far as the GTO goes, if it was in the test with the other cars I imagine it would have probably finished maybe 2 or 3 places above the Camaro.
The Miata is small and underpowered. And while it isn't too terribly fast, since it seems pretty fast around the corners and is responsive you can forgive it for being underpowered and it is fun to drive.
I don't know how I feel about the ZR1's place. On the one had it pretty much destroyed everyone else. On the other I bet it is difficult to drive at the limit on Laguna Seca. It's limit is so much further than the other cars that is just common sense. I wonder if it would have scored the same if they limited it to 80% throttle? It might have been easier to drive and still outran most all the other cars
The 2010 with PTM is going to be significantly easier to drive than the 2009 as well.
08-20-2009, 08:07 PM
#34
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I don't know how I feel about the ZR1's place. On the one had it pretty much destroyed everyone else. On the other I bet it is difficult to drive at the limit on Laguna Seca. It's limit is so much further than the other cars that is just common sense. I wonder if it would have scored the same if they limited it to 80% throttle? It might have been easier to drive and still outran most all the other cars The 2010 with PTM is going to be significantly easier to drive than the 2009 as well.
The 2010 with PTM is going to be significantly easier to drive than the 2009 as well.
08-21-2009, 02:49 AM
#35
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Since Motortrend diss'ed the Camaro, it only makes me want it more. I don't worship at the alter of imports like Motortrend does. In fact....I wouldn't own one. (unless we are talking about motorcycles)
08-21-2009, 05:22 AM
#36
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The Camaro isn't the 'track' special that the GT500 is. The author did state that the GT500 (of comparable weight) felt more track oriented and with suspension development, the Camaro can be made to handle.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over the article.
EDIT: I note the reviewers had no weighty issues with the 4277-pound Caddy!
I wouldn't lose any sleep over the article.
EDIT: I note the reviewers had no weighty issues with the 4277-pound Caddy!
Last edited by SSbaby; 08-21-2009 at 05:25 AM.
08-21-2009, 06:06 AM
#37
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Can you point me towards one of those volumes? I could be mistaken, but everything I've read has indicated that the Z06 is the one with the scary handling, and that the ZR1 is significantly easier to drive fast. Most reviewers think that's due to the ZR1's magnetic ride control.
08-21-2009, 08:29 AM
#39
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I just hope that the faith is rewarded by say 2012/2013ish. I'm waiting for bugs to be ironed out, and production to catch up with demand, and maybe just maybe...GM will do something nice for the 2012 45th anniversary edition. I know i can't wait til 2017 for the 50th, but there is always the option to just buy another when the 50th comes out.
08-21-2009, 08:37 AM
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08-21-2009, 10:26 AM
#41
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08-21-2009, 10:37 AM
#42
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Unless I missed a more detailed explanation of how these cars were chosen - they picked the winner of their best handling car comparison and 9 other new for 2009 cars. As I mentioned in the other thread, I would have been interested to see how a Mini Cooper S, M3, RS5, Mitsu Evo, GTR, etc, would have scored.
08-21-2009, 10:50 AM
#43
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It makes you the 10th best out of these 10.
Unless I missed a more detailed explanation of how these cars were chosen - they picked the winner of their best handling car comparison and 9 other new for 2009 cars. As I mentioned in the other thread, I would have been interested to see how a Mini Cooper S, M3, RS5, Mitsu Evo, GTR, etc, would have scored.
Unless I missed a more detailed explanation of how these cars were chosen - they picked the winner of their best handling car comparison and 9 other new for 2009 cars. As I mentioned in the other thread, I would have been interested to see how a Mini Cooper S, M3, RS5, Mitsu Evo, GTR, etc, would have scored.
08-21-2009, 11:43 AM
#44
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It makes you the 10th best out of these 10.
Unless I missed a more detailed explanation of how these cars were chosen - they picked the winner of their best handling car comparison and 9 other new for 2009 cars. As I mentioned in the other thread, I would have been interested to see how a Mini Cooper S, M3, RS5, Mitsu Evo, GTR, etc, would have scored.
Unless I missed a more detailed explanation of how these cars were chosen - they picked the winner of their best handling car comparison and 9 other new for 2009 cars. As I mentioned in the other thread, I would have been interested to see how a Mini Cooper S, M3, RS5, Mitsu Evo, GTR, etc, would have scored.
I've driven a Cooper S and a 5th gen SS, and while the Cooper was fun, I'd give the nod to the Camaro on that contest. Maybe that's just me.
RS5 isn't out yet, is it?
08-21-2009, 11:53 AM
#45
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It's not like they said "Don't buy the SS, it garbage". What they said essentially was "If you take this car to a challengeing track, here's what you can expect".
The SS is a strong 1/4 miler, has traffic stopping looks, and of the group of cars assembled, came in as one of the cheapest. But in this test, it's weaknesses were on display. And it isn't the 1st time.
Automobile Magazine also took a Camaro SS out on a track... not against a GT500, but the Mustang GT/TP. Much like this test Motor Trend, they had professional race car drivers (2 in this case) PJ Jones and Mark Donahue giving opinion. They made almost the same identical observations that MT & Randy Pobst noted.
Bottom line, while the Camaro SS is drop-dead gorgeous to look at, and while it is no doubt quick and rides as solid as a bank vault, it's strong suit isn't it's handling on a race course. But it's not going to stop anyone from buying alot of new Camaros any more than less power stopped people from buying 3 times as many Mustang GTs as Camaro Z28s back in 2002.
A person will buy a car that they like that fulfills their own needs and wants. The 2002 Mustang GT was still fast and the 2010 SS still handles. No car is going to be the best at everything.
Even though Camaro ranked last, and even though the Mustang GT500 ranked above it, they still thought highly enough about the Camaro SS to include it on this list.
Camaro SS is NOT a bad car, and it's 10th place ranking is by no means whatsoever a "diss", an insult, or anything else.
MT's reviews of new vehicles lack any real negative points. Their future vehicles section ranks far below (in the basement, actually) the future vehicle section on this site. But when they do comparison tests of performance cars, they usually go all out, and come up with very good and accurate articles. For a $31K Camaro SS to be in this test (WTH was a Miata doing there?) is an extremely good thing.
Last edited by guionM; 08-21-2009 at 12:06 PM.