Motortrend judges Camaro SS last of 10 "driver's cars"
08-20-2009, 12:20 AM
#16
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Doing well in those competition, while respectable, isn't nearly as impressive given the other cars in the groups. Look at the entries in this new article! There are some serious cars in there. I have no problem admitting the Camaro does not measure up to the ZR1, the R8, or the Cayman S as a driver's car. I'd love to be able to say that it did, but given the pricetags and limited practicality of those cars, it's a tradeoff I'm okay with as a Camaro enthusiast.
Also, I think that even making the list of the top ten drivers cars counts as "garnering respect," don't you?
Also, I think that even making the list of the top ten drivers cars counts as "garnering respect," don't you?
Sure, I'm glad there's a Camaro here. I just wished it didn't have to come in dead last. The Camaro was bested here by all entries - some fairly exotic, some very affordable - for precisely the reasons I have long feared it would - mass (both weight and bulk) and interior (both design and ergonomics).
08-20-2009, 12:46 AM
#17
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http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-may1984
http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-oct1984
Here's a couple very quickly. Although the 944 did edge out the Z/28 on the second one, they were close enough to garner respect.
http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-oct1984
Here's a couple very quickly. Although the 944 did edge out the Z/28 on the second one, they were close enough to garner respect.
08-20-2009, 07:16 AM
#18
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http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-may1984
http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-oct1984
Here's a couple very quickly. Although the 944 did edge out the Z/28 on the second one, they were close enough to garner respect.
http://www.thirdgen.org/besthandling...driver-oct1984
Here's a couple very quickly. Although the 944 did edge out the Z/28 on the second one, they were close enough to garner respect.
Last edited by super83Z; 08-20-2009 at 07:20 AM.
08-20-2009, 09:14 AM
#20
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Good topic, to get two inputs from the FBodFather!
Even understanding the necessary limitations of the '10 Camaro, my excitement to get my black SS isn't diminished in the least. It is very hard to not call the dealership: "You said September, is it in production, yet?!"
It'll sit in the driveway next to my wife's black, '06 GT convertible. They're different. They are both excellent. The soccer moms and the poor hubbies forced to drive the minivan will hate us!
If it runs a little late for delivery, that's fine, too. Mid-October will be a very, very nice 50th b-day present. Tomorrow would be better, though...
Even understanding the necessary limitations of the '10 Camaro, my excitement to get my black SS isn't diminished in the least. It is very hard to not call the dealership: "You said September, is it in production, yet?!"
It'll sit in the driveway next to my wife's black, '06 GT convertible. They're different. They are both excellent. The soccer moms and the poor hubbies forced to drive the minivan will hate us!
If it runs a little late for delivery, that's fine, too. Mid-October will be a very, very nice 50th b-day present. Tomorrow would be better, though...
OK --
Let me say this: Go drive one for 24 hours and just watch peoples' reaction to the car.
Get behind the wheel and drive it for 10 to 12 hours at a stretch...........
I guess it depends on what your expectations are -- and how big you think the market is for 'your' expectations.
Let me say this: Go drive one for 24 hours and just watch peoples' reaction to the car.
Get behind the wheel and drive it for 10 to 12 hours at a stretch...........
I guess it depends on what your expectations are -- and how big you think the market is for 'your' expectations.
08-20-2009, 09:33 AM
#21
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I rarely post, but seriously that MT article is complete 
I started reading with an open mind, willing to accept some of what they were saying. However when I saw the Mustang score ahead of the ZR1, I just couldn't take it anymore. SERIOUSLY THINK ABOUT THAT. . . A MUSTANG OUTSCORING THE MOST INCREDIBLE CORVETTE EVER BUILT . . . AS A DRIVER'S CAR!!!!???? These guys are idiots and have zero credibility. It's a darn shame that the raw power of the ZR1 scared these guys so much that they had to PAY ATTENTION and PUT BOTH HANDS ON THE WHEEL
And I think we could easily make a case to put the Camaro ahead of both the BMW1 and the 370Z. Don't even get me started on the Miata. . .That is not a driver's car, it's a girl car. Of course a 200lb power wheels car will out-handle the beastly muscle machine that is the Camaro. That does not make it a better driver's car. No more MT for me
I started reading with an open mind, willing to accept some of what they were saying. However when I saw the Mustang score ahead of the ZR1, I just couldn't take it anymore. SERIOUSLY THINK ABOUT THAT. . . A MUSTANG OUTSCORING THE MOST INCREDIBLE CORVETTE EVER BUILT . . . AS A DRIVER'S CAR!!!!???? These guys are idiots and have zero credibility. It's a darn shame that the raw power of the ZR1 scared these guys so much that they had to PAY ATTENTION and PUT BOTH HANDS ON THE WHEEL And I think we could easily make a case to put the Camaro ahead of both the BMW1 and the 370Z. Don't even get me started on the Miata. . .That is not a driver's car, it's a girl car. Of course a 200lb power wheels car will out-handle the beastly muscle machine that is the Camaro. That does not make it a better driver's car. No more MT for me
08-20-2009, 10:03 AM
#22
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ZOINKS SCOOBY!! The Camaro weighed 300 more pounds than the Mustang! It must have been an overbloated POS then too! Those articles have to be BS, are you trying to convince me that the heaviest car handled the best? I have been coming to this site long enough to know that the lighter car is always the better handler. Impossible!
Which articles are BS? The ones where the 3rd gen always won, or the ones where the 5th gen always lost?
BTW, I think some of you guys are still unable to process what the shootout is all about:
Originally Posted by Motor Trend
not looking for the quickest car over the quarter mile, the car that pulls the highest lateral g through a turn, or even the fastest lap time around a racetrack. The Best Driver's Car award process looks at expert qualitative feedback as well as quantitative data. The winner will be a car that delivers a balance of useable performance, accessible handling, and driver-friendly design; a vehicle with a multidimensional personality that will delight and reward the enthusiast driver on any road at any time, regardless of weather and traffic conditions.
Last edited by Z284ever; 08-20-2009 at 10:11 AM.
08-20-2009, 10:33 AM
#23
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08-20-2009, 11:07 AM
#24
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I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!
Sorry for the uber-old movie reference.
08-20-2009, 11:25 AM
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I suspect you hit the nail on the head.
The SS uses the same identical tire as the Track Pack Mustang. Yet, not only does the SS weigh at least 300 pounds more, it also wears a skinnier version of the tire up front (SS wears 245s, GT wears 255s).
The Mustang carves up a track, so it's not the brand of tire.
I think your conclusion is dead on.
I believe the GTO would have faired exceptionally well. Perhaps, significantly better than Camaro.
The list is about driver's cars, not "people's-reaction-to-seeing-them" cars. The more I try out Camaro's interior, the less I like it. Once the excitement wears down a bit, that interior does seem a bit claustraphobic, the dash isn't exactly Camaro's strong point, and a few areas inside do seem cheaper and flimsier than not only the new Mustang, but the Challenger as well. The surrounding enviroment sitting in the GTO's seat is the exact opposite of the Camaros.
A quick look at the numbers between the GTO and the SS is a bit of an eye opener. The GTO matches the SS in 0-60, beats the SS on every rolling start catagory, brakes 5 feet shorter from 70 mph, reaches a higher skidpad (88g vs 85) and gets 3 more mpg on the highway*. Also, ther's no recurring mention of understeer with the GTO.
Add in the better visibility and the perception better quality of interior materials (or evidently better durability of same assembled interior parts), and that 0.3 second advantage SS has in the 1/4 mile doesn't seem to be enough IMO to top the GTO as a driver's car.
I'm sure if GTO was still being made, it would wind up on the list.
And maybe even ranked higher than the SS did.
* comparison numbers from Car and Driver tests.
The SS uses the same identical tire as the Track Pack Mustang. Yet, not only does the SS weigh at least 300 pounds more, it also wears a skinnier version of the tire up front (SS wears 245s, GT wears 255s).
The Mustang carves up a track, so it's not the brand of tire.
I think your conclusion is dead on.
I wonder how the GTO would fair in the same group? Like or dislike the styling
the GTO was a good driver out of the box, while the 4th Gen Camaro would've
taken it in the twisties, the GTO doesnt beat you up while doing it.
Reviews for the GTO (disregarding styling) were generally VERY good. Perhaps
Holden should have just fixed the platforms faults, rather than upgrade it to a
Zeta? Zeta seems to need some work.
Tom
the GTO was a good driver out of the box, while the 4th Gen Camaro would've
taken it in the twisties, the GTO doesnt beat you up while doing it.
Reviews for the GTO (disregarding styling) were generally VERY good. Perhaps
Holden should have just fixed the platforms faults, rather than upgrade it to a
Zeta? Zeta seems to need some work.
Tom
The list is about driver's cars, not "people's-reaction-to-seeing-them" cars. The more I try out Camaro's interior, the less I like it. Once the excitement wears down a bit, that interior does seem a bit claustraphobic, the dash isn't exactly Camaro's strong point, and a few areas inside do seem cheaper and flimsier than not only the new Mustang, but the Challenger as well. The surrounding enviroment sitting in the GTO's seat is the exact opposite of the Camaros.
A quick look at the numbers between the GTO and the SS is a bit of an eye opener. The GTO matches the SS in 0-60, beats the SS on every rolling start catagory, brakes 5 feet shorter from 70 mph, reaches a higher skidpad (88g vs 85) and gets 3 more mpg on the highway*. Also, ther's no recurring mention of understeer with the GTO.
Add in the better visibility and the perception better quality of interior materials (or evidently better durability of same assembled interior parts), and that 0.3 second advantage SS has in the 1/4 mile doesn't seem to be enough IMO to top the GTO as a driver's car.
I'm sure if GTO was still being made, it would wind up on the list.
And maybe even ranked higher than the SS did.
* comparison numbers from Car and Driver tests.
Last edited by guionM; 08-20-2009 at 11:27 AM.
08-20-2009, 11:29 AM
#27
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Well if the Fbodfather says just wait and have faith then I will as he's been right in the past. 
Really the Camaro did just fine for its first year and if the heavier CTS-V and GT500 can feel or handle better then there is much hope for the Camaro and its Zeta (Holden) underpinnings in years to come with refinement. Ford has been working on the current Mustang platform since 2005.
The ZR1 blew away the competition on the track but when subjectively rated it fell to 6th place and behind the Miata. So that tells us all how MT was judging these cars.
Really the Camaro did just fine for its first year and if the heavier CTS-V and GT500 can feel or handle better then there is much hope for the Camaro and its Zeta (Holden) underpinnings in years to come with refinement. Ford has been working on the current Mustang platform since 2005.
The ZR1 blew away the competition on the track but when subjectively rated it fell to 6th place and behind the Miata. So that tells us all how MT was judging these cars.
08-20-2009, 11:34 AM
#28
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Having not read the article, I find myself wondering why there aren't any Ferraris on the list. $150k price cap?
08-20-2009, 11:56 AM
#29
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It didn't come in dead last. It came in as the tenth-best driver's car on the market today. Considering what it was up against, that is one hell of an accolade.
Having not read the article, I find myself wondering why there aren't any Ferraris on the list. $150k price cap?
Having not read the article, I find myself wondering why there aren't any Ferraris on the list. $150k price cap?
It came in 10th out of 10, not 10th best in the world. Big difference.
08-20-2009, 12:30 PM
#30
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ZOINKS SCOOBY!! The Camaro weighed 300 more pounds than the Mustang! It must have been an overbloated POS then too! Those articles have to be BS, are you trying to convince me that the heaviest car handled the best? I have been coming to this site long enough to know that the lighter car is always the better handler. Impossible!
I rarely post, but seriously that MT article is complete I started reading with an open mind, willing to accept some of what they were saying. However when I saw the Mustang score ahead of the ZR1, I just couldn't take it anymore. SERIOUSLY THINK ABOUT THAT. . . A MUSTANG OUTSCORING THE MOST INCREDIBLE CORVETTE EVER BUILT . . . AS A DRIVER'S CAR!!!!???? These guys are idiots and have zero credibility. It's a darn shame that the raw power of the ZR1 scared these guys so much that they had to PAY ATTENTION and PUT BOTH HANDS ON THE WHEEL And I think we could easily make a case to put the Camaro ahead of both the BMW1 and the 370Z. Don't even get me started on the Miata. . .That is not a driver's car, it's a girl car. Of course a 200lb power wheels car will out-handle the beastly muscle machine that is the Camaro. That does not make it a better driver's car. No more MT for me
I started reading with an open mind, willing to accept some of what they were saying. However when I saw the Mustang score ahead of the ZR1, I just couldn't take it anymore. SERIOUSLY THINK ABOUT THAT. . . A MUSTANG OUTSCORING THE MOST INCREDIBLE CORVETTE EVER BUILT . . . AS A DRIVER'S CAR!!!!???? These guys are idiots and have zero credibility. It's a darn shame that the raw power of the ZR1 scared these guys so much that they had to PAY ATTENTION and PUT BOTH HANDS ON THE WHEEL And I think we could easily make a case to put the Camaro ahead of both the BMW1 and the 370Z. Don't even get me started on the Miata. . .That is not a driver's car, it's a girl car. Of course a 200lb power wheels car will out-handle the beastly muscle machine that is the Camaro. That does not make it a better driver's car. No more MT for meThey even had Randy-Frigging-Pobst, a guy that drives fast cars and wins races every day for a living (real races like 24 hours of Daytona for example) doing testing and giving insight. Dismissing his opinions on fast cars and handling is like dismissing Scott Settlemire regarding Camaro information and history. You'd be incredibly silly if you did.
The whole point of this test is to find the best DRIVERS car. That means a car you can enjoy because the handling is predictable, the components work together flawlessly, the car has great capabilities, and...the car is easy to drive fast, not because of raw performance numbers.
Volumes have been said about the ZR1's scary handling. One test actually said the Z06 is the better handling car because it's far more predictable. Sure, the ZR1 has high capability, but it's also twitchy. It has a blown motor making 600-plus going through a car that's as light as a loaded Cobalt. There's alot of room for the ZE1 to be outranked by something far more balenced.
One point Probst made pretty much sums up the ZR1's placing:
I just was not getting messages from the car that it was going to be stable enough to go right over that brow, still flat on the floor. Part of the reason is that it is so powerful -- it was really rocking up that hill -- but it's not as stable as the Audi R8. So it's a driver's car in the sense that the driver must be very, very involved, but not in the sense that it's extremely rewarding...
If you're going to drive this car fast, it is very much a car where you've got to be paying attention and on your game." In other words, withdraw for a moment, and the ZR1 can easily shout, Surprise! To be the Best Driver's Car, there should be no surprises
If you're going to drive this car fast, it is very much a car where you've got to be paying attention and on your game." In other words, withdraw for a moment, and the ZR1 can easily shout, Surprise! To be the Best Driver's Car, there should be no surprises
As for the GT500, this was his observation:
Pobst, who flogged the Shelby to a lap time of 1 minute, 44.3 seconds, or 1.4 ticks quicker than the Camaro, exited the Mustang as if he'd just been in a rodeo -- and won. "Yee-haw! Boy, I had a great time at the wheel. That car was really enjoyable. And it's much improved over the Shelby Mustang we drove last year." How so? "It's more balanced," he says without pause. "This Mustang is balanced, despite its size; as a driver, I really enjoy that. I could create a little understeer, I could create a little oversteer; it was predictable in that way. It has big power-enough to leave black stripes out of some of the corners. You look over there at Turn Four and the black stripes are almost laid right over each other from my two laps -- that's good handling because I could place the car right where I wanted it, even though I was in a power-oversteer drift. These are wonderful things"
You may not agree with the article's conclusions, but in this instance, being that they actually put the cars through identical tests on the same day and had at least one guy who simply is perhaps one of the highest qualified people around to help judge and give opinions, I'd put a whole lot more stock in their opinion and rankings (like them or not) than I would my own or others who have never driven these cars or are better writers than they are drivers.
IMO this test is legit.
As for Camaro, this is what their summary:
The Camaro presents a curiously mixed bag of handling characteristics. Although it responds respectably to a quick twist of the wheel and offers a quick buildup of lateral g if twisted gradually, it’s also sluggish on-center and runs into pretty stout understeer on its way to a relatively modest maximum lateral-g limit. This not only proved problematic in our figure-eight test, but note how its peak lat-g result was lower than its lap time and top speed at Laguna. Old ponycar habits die hard.