skibbez93z

I know a lot of people find this to be a very serious situation, but i just dont see it where i am. It just snowed like 2 days ago. We got a good 4 inches of snow and it is April! Maybe global warming is a big thing, but i just dont understand why were are so worried about it now. Also the main concern from this thread should be, not if the Camaro will be back, but how long? The last thing i want to see is the Camaro be put aside again.

CLEAN

Depends on what you consider "pollution"

67 LS-1 & T-56

This thread is becoming more about global warming and less about CAFE regs and their effects on GM RWD architecture.

Lets ignore global warming and look some concrete issues. Heres the thing, no logical person can ignore our need to limit our dependency on fossil fuels. We MUST move away from a petroleum based society, if for no other reason that we WILL one day run out of these fuel sources. That being said, the percentage of fossil fuels burned in passenger cars pales in comparison th the amount used in power generation and other industries (trucking, shipping, air travel, etc). I totally agree with reducing our fossil dependency, however, I really think we need to look in other areas. Heres the thing....its way easier to regulate the auto industry.

All in all I'm very split on this issue. I'm kind of pissed about how Lutz reacted to this. I feel like it makes us look irresponsible as car enthusiasts. AS if to say "well we have to 'green' now so that means no more cars people actually want to drive". I think that we need to do all that we can to reduce our person-by-person impact on the environment. We can do that by recycling, conserving energy, and having fuel efficient daily drivers, if need be. That doesn't mean the end of performance cars.

GM knows there is a huge push to be "green" right now...they can capitalize on this. Building cars is their business, and they can figure out how to build an environmentally friendly car....even if it is RWD. For God sakes, Pimp My Ride is building a biodiesel 65 impala. I'm pretty sure they will leave it RWD.

This "no more RWD" thing is making us look like a bunch of crybabies who are taking our toys and going home.

67 LS-1 & T-56

To clarify, the main concern with global warming is an increase in the AVERAGE temperature of the Earth...outliers like our spring time freeze notwithstanding.

Hawk312

First of all, I appreciate that the mods are letting this thread "ride". Thanks!

I don`t believe man has had much of an impact, if any, on warming of the planet. I think alot of this is based on assumptions and conclusions reached from scientific fact, but with an added dose of opinion and preference fill in the "gaps".
What is frightening is that this country seems to be rushing to legislate based on this shakey foundation, and it is going to cost taxpayers, maybe even Americas economic position on the world stage. Our hope is that alternative fuels and technology research could lead to more jobs.

Many scientific publications are as worthless as magazines you pick off the shelf. If they are not working directly or indirectly for those who will sponser them as long they reach "proper" conclusions, as someone else pointed out, they have to justify their research funding.
I work in a very recognizable university where much research is done, and have actually co-written scientific abstracts, so I am familiar with the process. A team of researchers is hired based on grants or sponsored donations, and intially must justify the research. If you can`t continue to justify the research, the funding goes bye-bye and you are literally out on the street without a job. I have seen researchers seemingly well secure only to see them a month or two later cleaning out their office, sometimes being sent back to their home country. Just imagine a researcher funded to do global warming research coming to the conclusion "oh this global warming thing....nothin to worry about." The next day, he is applying at Petco!
Many "researchers" need to reach preordained conclusions to justify their funding, and the only way to do that is to continue to produce evidence that our world is doomed, and send fear into our helpless hearts. Our politicians then need to appear to be "doing something" to fight the threat to humanity.
One only has to look at this latest daylight savings time change that was passed to conserve energy. Energy use is up, not down, and we have spent $millions, possibly $billions preparing for this change, particularly in IT. But our politicians appeared to have "done something" to combat the looming threat (can someone confirm Al Gore was responsible for this?).


This whole debate reminds me of the Evolution-Intelligent design debate....maybe just because it involves those wild and crazy scientists! Both sides try to back up their opinions with science, but both sides refuse to admit it all comes down to faith and opinion at this point.
If there is one thing I have found about the scientific community, is that when it comes to controversial issues, both sides are hard headed, and since they can`t agree, might makes right, wether right or wrong. The "might" camp is also very uppity and "psuedo intellectual", so the dissenters are ridiculed until they are silenced. So I dont think any of us will ever know for sure what our effect has been, if we`ve had an effect at all. And I dont think we should be legislating anything supported by this shakey foundation.

Silver2009

"We can't get to 34 MPG...." so cancel the future plans?

It truly does sound lame for the country that put a man on the moon and 505HP in a Corvette that sells for a third of a Ferrari's cost.

I just think it's "counter grandstanding" to the Gore histeria team. Great points about the migration need and the scientifc process. Way too much wiggle room to be building laws on car MPG.

I KNOW GM could build a butt kicking full size 4 door auto that got 40 MPG, but they would have to spend bazillions that they don't have and still sell it for only $35K to remain competitive.

Fbodfather

Wait a minute -- no one said "cancel the future plans" as your first line says........

Mr. Lutz says that some product plans have been put on hold.

Now...let's stop for a minute and look at what he's saying --

The U.S. Government is talking about raising CAFE substantially...over the next several years. We can argue the merits of that forever - but what Mr. Lutz is saying is this: Look....we have these great plans. We are moving forward with some of our RWD cars.........HOWEVER -- we're putting the brakes on some future plans (beyond Camaro and RWD sedans) -- because we don't KNOW that we'll be able to build them - or that there will be a market for them. We're going to look at several options -- but until the decision is made, we're not going to run headlong into a product plan that could bankrupt us.........

The stockholders of General Motors Corporation DEMAND that he and all other top executives have a comprehensive plan -- with alternatives -- because if they don't, it's curtains for GM.

Now -- I didn't walk into his office and discuss this.....but from my limited knowledge of GM -- and what we do with product plans...I think I'm safe in posting the above.

(if not, a fleet of black suburbans will pull up in front of my house.......)

It's good to have dialogue -- but it's bad to jump to conclusions...........

Now ... my personal thought for the day? I believe Global Warming will become the instrument for some people to gain more and more power.......and I'm scared silly that too many people will allow that to happen.

yell-01vette

No unnecessary risks, Scott, you're too important to the board to be smuggled off in the night like Jack Bauer.

And I also appreciate the mods letting this ride, some of the provided links were quite eye opening on the subject. I have quite a bit more informed of an opinion than I did earlier today, so thanks to those that posted.

As for how all of this pertains to the Camaro, personally I'm confident enough in the reaction to the car that at least at first, its going to sell well enough to escape the clutches of limited production. Over the long haul, hurry up on those batteries GM, you're going to need them sooner than later. More than whats going on today, I think the BOD realizes that in 2 years when we've got libs running both the leg and the exec branches, we're going to get this CAFE crap, as well as Cap & Trade, rammed down our throats, like it or not.

Shellhead

I don't think grandstanding is the right word......this doesn't seem like Lutz is posturing or being at all bombastic. He's trying to impact policy and potential legislation, but his response is exactly the way he always responded to everything - direct, and I think he firmly believes the case he's making.

And I think his reaction goes WAY beyond CAFE - per the Supreme Court this week the EPA can treat CO2 as a pollutant. This is bad - very, very bad. The idea has it's roots in the hysteria of global warming, but the impact could be far more broad. Consider that if CO2 is an EPA controlled pollutant, and the EPA decides to control CO2 emissions from cars, we're no longer necessarily talking CAFE - we're now talking about a whole new and devastating slew of emissions controls ON TOP of CAFE. There is even the potential for the EPA to investigate CO2 emissions in a company's supply chain - and then shut down suppliers for emitting too much CO2. The effect on industry could be horrific (and not just automotive).

But I'm not an alarmist - and these are just what-ifs. The things that *everyone* on this board should do are very simple:

1. Contact your representatives in congress, and even the president and make your views known politely and professionally.

2. Drive your Camaro, Firebird or other fun car of choice to the fullest - enjoy every second of it as the horsepower envelops you.

3. Go home to your wife, kids, pets, etc. and enjoy every single second you have with them. Kiss your wife, play with your kids and enjoy the things that make your world great.

4. DO NOT let this become all encompassing. DO NOT let this get so far under your skin that it blinds you to the beauty of life. It happened to me when I was first trying to make up my mind on global warming - it became so frustrating that I started to lose perspective on what is most important to me.

5. Most importantly - be optimistic (perhaps hardest of all) - everyone in this community has a lot of reason to be optimistic. We never thought Camaro would come back - or those who did thought it would take a long time - but now it's coming and it just proves that you never know what will happen - so don't lose heart, and don't let it get you down. People can change, and if confronted by the issue, make your points calmly and rationally - eventually enough people will start asking questions.

KEEP THE FAITH!!!

Shellhead

And btw - thanks to the mods for letting this conversation go on. It hasn't seemed to drift too far off course and continues to be interesting - thanks!

RussStang

These are also the same people that landed on the moon, sped the development of the computer greatly, and of course brought us tang.
Sorry if a bunch of guys on an internet board who think they know what the hell they are talking about doesn't make me a believer.


I don't believe I actually stated anything to that effect. Anywhere. It amazes me how everyone on here is an expert climatelogist.

I am not trying to turn this into yet another global warming debate, because in my experience they always end badly, so I will leave it at this.

To FbodFather (Scott), since I was a little kid they taught in school about global warming. I never actually recall ever learning about a global ice age. At least, that is what the text books have in them. The only time I ever remember talking about a man made ice age was typically in the context of a nuclear winter.

SFireGT98

That Scott, is what I believe Global Warming REALLY is. It is a weapon that alot of people are using to try and gain power.

I believe that we should eventually move away from fossil fuels and a "greener" society isnt a bad thing, but using "global warming" as the basis for new legislation and rules is rediculous. There are many science reports out there that support global warming but yet, there are also just as many that say global warming isnt serious and is this generations "scare tactic".

Maybe in 40-50 years once the global warming phase dies out and gov't's need a new fear weapon to further their agendas, hopefully they pick something more dramatic like aliens invading

GTOJack

Maybe that last leftover bright red M6 06 GTO at the local Pontiac dealer for $26,000 is a heII of a deal after hearing this news. GM is pushing its 30 and up mpg cars now, because when the lower, more accurate, highway figures come out, the only GM car left on the list MIGHT be the Cobalt. The 07 Grand Prix I just leased gets 27-27.5 mpg on the highway and says 30 on the sticker. Maybe in the summer with 45psi in the tires it will get 28mpg. GM needs to buy a Honda Civic to study the A5 trans that gets better fuel economy than the M5 if it wants to learn how to meet future CAFE increases. A cobalt that only gets 32-34mpg on the highway isnt going to do much to offset GMs gas sucking V8s.

GTOJack

No flames please. This news about CO2 emissions could mean the end of the V8 and is very upsetting to gearheads like myself.

poSSum

It's not all that "common" anymore.