Fbodfather

Dear GOD Hylton!!!---

When I read your first post, I nearly launched one of the stents!!!!

Good things come to those who wait!

(and that goes for Cobalt, too, Charlie........)

Shellhead

So does this mean that we'll absolutely have to wait for a top dog Camaro, Scott? I hope that's not the case, and not just for selfish reasons....I really wonder about the long term effect of doing something like that.

It would seem to me that when the Camaro comes out, every car publication and website will be clamoring to take a top end Camaro and run it against every competitor. That will generate a lot of press at the start, and if Camaro does o.k., but not stellar - that will be people's opinion of the car. And when a new, faster version comes out in a year - it will seem like a knee-jerk reaction to the test as far as John Q Public is concerned.

But if the top Camaro comes out at the start and it destroys the competition in the initial tests, most in the public will see Camaro as the king of the hill.

Of course if whatever top dog Camaro comes out initially stomps the competition, then public perception will be positive regardless - so perhaps it's a moot concern. But my impression of Mustang is that they are caught in such a perpetual cycle of upgrading the car that it was never really done to begin with. It seems to me like Ford doesn't know what to do next, so they roll out special edition after special edition - thereby diluting a car that made enthusiasts really happy when it first came out. I'd hate to see GM do the same thing with Camaro.

Does that make sense, or am I out of touch with the current market?

Hylton

Lol - Woah! Last thing I need are 10,000 Camaro enthusiasts looking for my scalp because I put Scott back in the hospital!

hyperv6

My spys have been telling me to expect the HHR SS drivetrain so I assume it is just a delay. A turbo has been in the works to replace the SC for a while.

Note all the new Ecotec's are turbo and not SC.

260 HP with a Possiblilty of 300 HP would make a fine SS even with the wrong wheels pulling.

Bob Cosby

Jeez. I'm sorry, I put fluffy in there, but I didn't put a little winkie smilie so that it was INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS that it was a joke.

Lighten up, Francis.

Or not....its all good with me.

Eric77TA

OK. That's got to be one of the funniest things I've read in recent memory.

SFireGT98

I agree as well Charlie. They were fun cars and with a nice exhaust system, the 3.1 had a unique deep throaty exhaust note. Up until the 3rd gen j-bodys came out, the Z24's were cool, sporty little cars. They were a perfect car when I was in high school, Camaros and Mustangs were insurance nightmares so the Z24 fit the bill perfectly with its potent motor and sporty looks. Can't wait till the Cobalt gets that turbo motor. Been waiting for that since the day the Solstice/Sky were scheduled to get it.

krazzycowgirl

Watch that BP Scott, lol.

wildpaws

"In the 4th gen era, Z28s got up close to 50%."

And who in the world would want a Z/28 if half of all the Camaros you saw were Z/28s? As far as "special status" goes, there was nothing very special about the 2nd generation Z/28 once the engines had been gutted from the first gen. The Z/28 (and indeed the SS) should be different than the run of the mill Camaro, and the SS and Z/28 should be very different from each other. Simply taking the SS package and changing the emblem to Z/28 just does not do it for me. I guess we'll have to wait and see what they come out with in 2009. BTW, the Z/28 was a late addition to the 1967 Camaro (as far as availability), so I would not be surprised to see it be a while before we see a Z.
Clyde

1fastdog

Here's the Z/28 origination hisory as I know it. A pal of mine was an engineer for Chevrolet and purchased one of the first 20 Z/28' for racing purposes. He and Gib Hufstader raced the car in the early TransAM series.

Accroding to my friend Dave Horchler, Vince Piggins was behind the Z/28 and he diected me to a recollection sesion Vince gave on the car... I have it stowed away in my archives. I'm happy to share it here. Dave provided a lot of info for Michael Lamm's good book on early Camaro.

According to Vince Piggins:

"After Ford released the Mustang, they had about two years on us before Chevrolet could get the Camaro into the 1967 product line. I felt in my activity, which deals with product promotion and how to get the most promotional mileage from a car from the performance standpoint, that we needed to develop a performance image for the Camaro that would be superior to the Mustang's.

"Along comes SCCA in creating the Trans-Am sedan racing class for professional drivers in 1966, aimed at the 1967 season. I made it a point to have several discussions with SCCA officials-notably Jim Kaser, John Bishop, and Tracy Byrd-and one thing led to another. I suggested a vehicle that would fit this class and, I believe -- supported by what Chevrolet might do with the Camaro -- it gave them heart to push ahead and make up the rules, regulations, and so forth for the Trans-Am series. I feel this was really the creation of the Trans-Am as we know it."

Now on August 16, 1966 I put together a memo to my boss, W.T. Barwell, that laid out the basic idea of the Z-28, although, of course, it wasn't called that then. We didn't name the car until several months later, but I'll get into that in a moment."

"This memo went out to engineers Alex Mair and Don McPherson, sales manager Bob Lund, Joe Pike in sale promotion, and C.C. Jakust. I said, in effect, that SCCA sedan racing was becoming increasingly popular and would blossom into even bigger things with the advent of the short-wheelbase, Mustang type ponycar."

"My proposal went on that since our projected engine lineup for the 1967 Camaro had no V-8 smaller than the 327, and since we were above the 5000cc (305-cid) SCCA displacement limit for Class A sedans, we ought to take a high-performance version of the old 283 and wrap an option package around it to make it competitive within SCCA. You'll remember that the Barracuda was running a 273 V-8 at that time, and the Mustang's competitive engine was the 289. So our high-performance 283 would certainly have been right in there."

"A new 283 high-performance engine plus other relative driveline and chassis items will provide performance and handling characteristics superior to either Mustang or Barracuda. To aid in the merchandising of this vehicle, certain other embellishments have been included to make the overall vehicle immediately identifiable and distinctive. The sales department anticipates a volume of 10,000 such vehicles could be sold in 1967."

"My initial proposal suggested we use the 283 V-8 plus the F-41 optional suspension, with heavy-duty front coils and multi-leaf rear springs. I also requested the J-52 front disc brakes with J-65 metallic linings for the rear drums, the 11-inch clutch from the 396 V-8, the close-ratio 4-speed with 2.20 low, a brand-new steering gear with a 24:1 overall ratio, Corvette 15 x 6 wheels with 7.75 tires, and a special reworked hood to provide functional air intake. There were other modifications called for as well, and 1 suggested we make the package available only in the Camaro coupe, not the convertible, and that the Z-22 Rally Sport option form part of the equipment for this car. Now not all this equipment went into the production Z-28 automobile, but those were the initial parts called for."

"Estes < head of Chevy at the time > was quite impressed with the performance of this 283-engined vehicle, and as I explained to him what we planned to do to capture the Trans-Am championship and to produce a good performance image for the Camaro, it didn't take much convincing for Pete to see what I was aiming toward."

"The only thing. . ." continues Vince, "while we were driving the car, I mentioned that we'd put the 283 into it because we'd built that size engine before. But I suggested when we got back to the starting pad that it might be a lot better to take the 327 block and put the 283 crank into it, giving us a 4 x 3 bore and stroke. That would put displacement at 302.4 cid, just under the SCCA's 305 limit."

"So Pete immediately agreed, especially being an engineer and knowing the potential this car could have. Estes walked over to engineers Alex Mair and Don McPherson and said, `Let's release this package and develop a 302 engine to go with it.'

The actual Z28 work order was #19621-34 and read as follows:

Remove engine and send to motor room

Install engine #196231 - A high performance 283

Engine weight dressout was 572

dated October 11, 1966

"That was really the start of the Z-28, and we proceeded to homologate that vehicle with the FIA as of Jan. 1, 1967 as a Group II car."

"There wasn't any suggestion of what we were going to call this car," notes Piggins. "When it came down to having to decide, somebody just said, `Hey, it's option RPO Z-28; let's call it Z-28!' So the name just grew from there. The graphics people did things with the Z, and that's how the designation stuck. The car got its name from the actual option number."

1967 RPO Z28 - Special Performance Package includes 302-cid V8 engine, closed positive ventilation, dual exhaust with deep tone mufflers, special front and rear suspension, heavy-duty radiator and temperature controlled fan, quick ratio steering, 15x6 wheels, 7.35x15 nylon red stripe tires, 3.73:1 ratio axle and special paint stripes on hood and rear deck (requires 4-speed close ratio transmission, power brakes, front disc brakes or heavy-duty front disc brakes with metallic rear brakes; positraction recommended; Sport Coupe V8 only).

Price - $358.10

Z28Wilson

^^ Awesome post, thanks!

It's no different than waiting 12-18 months to release the GT500 in Mustang's case. I see no problems with releasing the V6 and "base" V8 car (or whatever) immediately and then releasing the Z28 (or whatever the big dog is) for MY '10.

Silverado C-10

Don't forget the convertable won't be available until 2010 either.

Z284ever

Thanks 1fastdog. I've read that passage many times and I still hang on every word.


I wonder if Vince Piggins and Pete Estes had any idea on that October 1966 day, of the impact they were about to create. An impact that with the help of Roger Penske, Mark Donohue and many others, still reverberates over four decades later.

1fastdog

Amazing stuff to ponder, that's for certain.

The Corvette Museum has Zora's original memo to Ed Cole on display... another landmark IMO.

Enjoy::::
DECEMBER 1953 - ONE MAN'S THINKING ALOUD ON THE SUBJECT
"The hot rod movement and interest in things connected with hop-up and speed is still growing. As an indication, the publications devoted to hot rodding and hop-upping, of which some half dozen have a very large circulation and are distributed nationally, did not exist some six years ago.

"Should we consider that it would be desirable to make these youths Chevrolet-minded? I think that we are in a position to carry out [a] successful attempt. However, there are many factors against us.

"From cover to cover they are full of Fords. This is not surprising then that the majority of hot rodders are eating, sleeping, and dreaming of modified Fords.

"When a superior line of GM V-8s appeared, there were remarkably few attempts to develop these and none too successful. In the non acceptance of GM's V-8s, cost must have played a part.

"Like all people, hot rodders are attracted by novelty. However, better experience taught them that new development is costly and long, and therefore [they] are extremely conservative. From my observation, it takes an advanced hot rodder some three years to stumble toward the successful development of a new design. Overhead Fords will be in [this] state in 1956-57.

"The slide rule potential of our RPO V-8 engine is extremely high, but to let things run their natural course will put us one year behind and then not too many will pick up a Chevrolet for development.

"It seems that unless by some action the odds and the time factor are not overcome, Ford will continue to dominate the thinking of this group. One factor which can largely overcome the handicap would be the availability of ready-engineered parts for high output.

"If the use of the Chevrolet engine will be made easy and the very first attempts will be crowned with success, the appeal of the new will take hold, [and] a swing to Chevrolet may be anticipated. This means the development of a range of special parts -camshafts, valves, springs, manifolds, pistons, and such which will be made available to the public.

"The association of Chevrolet with hot rods, speeds, and such is probably inadmissible, but possibly the existence of the Corvette provides the loop hole. If the special parts are carried as RPO items for the Corvette, they undoubtedly will be recognized by the hot rodders as the very parts they were looking for.

"If it is desirable or not to associate the Corvette with speed, I am not qualified to say, but I do know that in 1954, sport car enthusiasts will get hold of Corvette and race it.

"In 1955, with the V-8 engine, if unaided, they will still be outclassed. The market-wise negligible number of cars purchased for competition attracts public attention and publicity out of proportion to their number. Since we cannot prevent the people from racing Corvettes, maybe it is better to help them to do a good job at it.

"To make good in this field, the RPO parts must pertain not only to the engine but to the chassis components, as well. Engineering-wise, development of these RPO items, as far as the chassis is concerned, does not fall out of line with some of the planned activity of our group. Use of light alloys, brake development-composite drums, discs, and such, are on the agenda of the Research and Development group already.

"The thoughts are offered for what they are worth - one man's thinking aloud on the subject."




THE LETTER THAT SAVED THE CORVETTE
TO: Mesars. E. N. Cole and M. Olley
FROM: Mr. Z. Arkus-Duntov, Research & Development Section
SUBJECT: Corvette
DATE: October 15, 1954


In this note, I am speaking out of turn. I am giving options and suggestions without knowing all the factors. I realize this but still am offering my thoughts for what they are. In order to make the content clear and short, I will not use the polite apologetic phrasing and say, "it is" instead of "it possibly might be" - and I apologise for this now.

By the looks of it, the Corvette is on its way out.

I would like to say the following: Dropping the car now will have adverse effect internally and externally.

It is admission of failure. Failure of aggressive thinking in the eyes of the organization, failure to develop a saleable product in the eyes of the outside world.

Above-said can be dismissed as sentimentality. Let's see if it can hurt the cash register. I think it can.

Ford enters the field with the Thunderbird, a car of the same class as the Corvette.

If Ford makes success where we failed, it may hurt.

With aggressiveness of Ford publicity, they may turn the fact to their advantage. I don't mean in terms of Thunderbird sales, but in terms of promotion of theirs and depreciation of our general lines.

We will leave an opening in which they can hit at will. "Ford out-engineered, outsold, or ran Chevrolet's pride and joy off the market". Maybe the idea is far-fetched. I can only gauge in terms of my own reactions or actions. In the bare-fisted fight we are in now, I would hit at any opening I could find and the situation where Ford enters and where Chevrolet retreats, it is not an opening, it is a hole!

Now if they can hurt us, then we can hurt them! We are one year ahead and we possibly learned some lessons which Ford has yet to learn.

Is the effort worthwhile? This, I am in no positon to say. Obviously, in terms of direct sales a car for the discriminating low volume market is hardly an efficient investment of efforts. The value must be gauged by effects it may have on an overall picture.

The Corvette failed because it did not meet GM standards of a product. It did not have the value for the money.

If the value of a car consists of practical values and emotional appeal, the sports car has very little of the first and consequently has to have an exaggerated amount of the second. If a passenger car must have an appeal, nothing short of a mating call will extract $4,000 for a small two-seater. The Corvette as it was offered had curtailed practical value being a poor performer. With a 6-cylinder engine, it was no better than the medium priced family car.

Timing was also unfortunate. When the novelty appeal was the highest, we hadn't had the cars to sell. When the cars became available, hypnotized by the initial overwhelming response, no promotional effort was made.

The little promotion which was made was designed to depreciate the car rather than enhance it. Hundreds or possibly thousands of dollars contained in the price of a sports or luxury car are paid for exclusivity. What did our promotion say on the radio and advertised in magazines? "Now everybody can have it! Come and get it". What virtues did advertising extoll? Only X inches high, only X inches long, etc. In the country, in which bigger is synonymous with better, and we really know it, we were trying to sell a car, because it is small! Crosley is smaller...

Were there no virtues to talk about? Quite some, but a condensation of best reports which appeared in motoring press previously had more glow and enthusiasm than our advertising.

Summarizing, the promotion was uninspired and half hearted attempt with no evidence of thought or enthusiasm.

Where do we stand now?

The Corvette still has the best and raciest look of all the sports cars, the Thunderbird included. performance is far superior to all the passenger cars and to 99% of the sports cars used on the road. It has flow in respect to passenger protection. Water leaks and cumbersome top and side window. With these minor flaws removed, we have a sports car with as much practical value as the sports care can have.

The borderline between the value and lack of same is not the absolute performance but comparative one. "My car can go X miles per hour does not mean as much as "My car can trim anything on wheels". The '55 Corvette will have this pride attached to its ownership. To be a success, it will need more emotional appeal which can be provided by promotion which will fit the product and inflame the type of customers which can buy the car.

As I see it and put it down, the Corvette is a product different from a passenger automobile having in every phase of operation problems of its own. With sales potential between 3 and at the most 10,000 cars a year, it is bound to be a hindering step-child in an organization which acts and thinks in terms of 1,500,000 units. A subdivision, section, department or what not, but an organization no matter how small but which is directly responsible for the successes of operation is necessary.

An organization which will eat and sleep Corvette as our divisions are eating and sleeping their particular cars.

I am convinced that a group with concentrated objective will not only stand a chance to achieve the desired result, but devise ways and means to make the operation profitable in a direct business sense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are more of Zoa's ilk still at GM. I'm confident such history is still being written. The past is exciting, the present may not be not all that we could want, and the future will be what we insist it will be... however we can contribute.

IZ28

Z28 is to Camaro what HEMI is to Dodge's most famous.