I don't think the z28 name will be coming back anytime soon
04-29-2007, 10:02 PM
#32
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Considering Ford is whoring out every Mustang branding they've got and that GM has a lot riding on this car I think we'll see more Camaro configurations then before. Z/28 is bound to appear somewhere.
Great post....and it says all in very simple terms. Do you really think the GM would be dumb enough to not use the Z/28 title somewhere after all its past history? You gotta remember....the SS was a performance package combined with some luxury items. The Z28 was primarily a performance package with luxury items as special add ons. I can guarantee you the z/28 moniker will appear again...and possibly as a "limited special edition" type package that will allow the dealers to rip off the customers for over MSRP price the same way Ford has allowed the dealers to rip off the customers with the outrageous prices on the GT500 models, and the next big ripoff being the GT500KR models. Do you really think GM is stupid enough to not jump on this bandwagon????? NOT!!!!!!
Great post....and it says all in very simple terms. Do you really think the GM would be dumb enough to not use the Z/28 title somewhere after all its past history? You gotta remember....the SS was a performance package combined with some luxury items. The Z28 was primarily a performance package with luxury items as special add ons. I can guarantee you the z/28 moniker will appear again...and possibly as a "limited special edition" type package that will allow the dealers to rip off the customers for over MSRP price the same way Ford has allowed the dealers to rip off the customers with the outrageous prices on the GT500 models, and the next big ripoff being the GT500KR models. Do you really think GM is stupid enough to not jump on this bandwagon????? NOT!!!!!!
04-29-2007, 10:47 PM
#33
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I don't know why people snicker at the Z24. Especially the early V6 versions. Their torque laden MPFI V6's (both 2.8 and 3.1) made them respectable performers on the street. They were also very affordable to buy and own - which made them popular.
The equivalent today would be like GM stuffing a 3.9 V6 or 3.6 HFV6 with a stick, into a Cobalt and selling it for under $20 grand.
The equivalent today would be like GM stuffing a 3.9 V6 or 3.6 HFV6 with a stick, into a Cobalt and selling it for under $20 grand.
It was good for its time but most people today compare it to a base Saturn that has 25 HP more. Add to the the fact many here still do not accept FWD and performace in the same car.
I have a 140 HP 2.8 now and when I bought it new it felt good now it feels so entry level. Like I have said before these are the good old days not the
60's, 80's or event he 90's.
04-30-2007, 06:20 AM
#34
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I personally think the Z28 name has a special meaning. But I don't agree that it's on the same level as the Shelby name.
Might want to rethink your comment. Why?
You asked about the most popular Mustang. That's the Mustang GT. Period.
A Mustang GT pales in comparison to a Saleen Mustang, and if you were simply giving the things away, of course a Mustang fan would take one over a regular Mustang just like a Camaro fan would take a 1969 ZL1 over a a 1969 Camaro RS. But I can't think of anyone with an I.Q. higher than a baked potato who would look at the 37,700 Camaro RS sold versus the mere 69 ZL1s produced and state the ZL1 is more popular.
A more valuable collector's item and a crowd magnet because so very few exist... yes.
A more popular car.... no.
Actually, the Z28 competed against the Ford Mustang Boss 302, NOT the Shelby.
Shelby Mustangs were closer to Yenko Camaros. Basically "tuner" cars.
Not flaming you or anything, but I believe you are operating from a flawed perspective. Z28 didn't really have that special status till late in the game.
Consider these Z28 production numbers:
1967: 609 of 220,000
1968: 7200 of 235,000
1969: 19000 of 243,000
1970: 8700 of 125,000
1971: 4800 of 114,000
1972: 2575 of 68,600
1973: 11500 of 96,700
1974: 13800 of 151,000
Never better than about 8% of total sales.
When it came back towards the end of the 77 model year, it's first full year (1978) it sold roughly 55,000 of total Camaro sales of 272,600 ...roughly 25%.
In the 4th gen era, Z28s got up close to 50%.
The "Shelby" name appeared on a FWD Dodge Charger in the 1980s and on a Dakota pickup truck. It also appeared on a 2 passenger sports car in the 1990s powered by the Oldsmobile version of the Northstar V8. It's a name that has been leased by Caroll Shelby, and he has 100% control over where that name goes.
Meanwhile, at the end of the day, Z28 is simply a General Motors option code.
FWIW: Pontiac did infact have the Super Duty name on a version of the pushrod 4 banger in the 1980s.
Don't laugh... it was virturally indestructable and did exceeding well on the race circuit.
ZL1s couldn't even be given away..... and there was only 69 of them.
Z06 is a option code that historically applied to race level Corvettes.
Z28 is by no means historically in the same league as these pure racing option codes. Save the original, Z28 has been a great performance value and a fantastic bang-for-the-buck car.
Well if you take into account the prices of Mustangs the Shelby is second to none in value. Also find me a Mustang fan that would turn down a Shelby for anything this side of a Boss 429 or Parnelli Jones Boss race car.
GT Mustangs, Mach 1 and Boss Mustangs are all great and popular but they still pail to any Shelby.
GT Mustangs, Mach 1 and Boss Mustangs are all great and popular but they still pail to any Shelby.
You asked about the most popular Mustang. That's the Mustang GT. Period.
A Mustang GT pales in comparison to a Saleen Mustang, and if you were simply giving the things away, of course a Mustang fan would take one over a regular Mustang just like a Camaro fan would take a 1969 ZL1 over a a 1969 Camaro RS. But I can't think of anyone with an I.Q. higher than a baked potato who would look at the 37,700 Camaro RS sold versus the mere 69 ZL1s produced and state the ZL1 is more popular.
A more valuable collector's item and a crowd magnet because so very few exist... yes.
A more popular car.... no.
Both the Shelby and Z28 have the racing history and competed together in the past. No reason for them not to compete now.
Shelby Mustangs were closer to Yenko Camaros. Basically "tuner" cars.
I am not saying anything bad about the later Z cars as they were good cars. But in my eyes they lost the special status of the original car. A car is just not as special if everyone has one. It should be a car that should be aspired too by those owners of the lessor car or other brands.
Consider these Z28 production numbers:
1967: 609 of 220,000
1968: 7200 of 235,000
1969: 19000 of 243,000
1970: 8700 of 125,000
1971: 4800 of 114,000
1972: 2575 of 68,600
1973: 11500 of 96,700
1974: 13800 of 151,000
Never better than about 8% of total sales.
When it came back towards the end of the 77 model year, it's first full year (1978) it sold roughly 55,000 of total Camaro sales of 272,600 ...roughly 25%.
In the 4th gen era, Z28s got up close to 50%.
I hope Scott you understand where I am coming from. I do not post a lot here but read often and know my Chevy history fairly well. I hate to see names like Z24 and the like placed on cars that in my eyes were good cars but not special. It is like slapping Super Duty on a Grand Am or Shelby on a FWD car. It is just wrong.
Meanwhile, at the end of the day, Z28 is simply a General Motors option code.
FWIW: Pontiac did infact have the Super Duty name on a version of the pushrod 4 banger in the 1980s.
Don't laugh... it was virturally indestructable and did exceeding well on the race circuit.
But the ZL11. ZL1, Z06 and Z28 are Special cars and any Z car should be held to a higher standard.
Z06 is a option code that historically applied to race level Corvettes.
Z28 is by no means historically in the same league as these pure racing option codes. Save the original, Z28 has been a great performance value and a fantastic bang-for-the-buck car.
Last edited by guionM; 04-30-2007 at 07:02 AM.
04-30-2007, 06:50 AM
#35
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But something worth considering:
The LT-1 looses it's high compression heads after 1 year (1971) and it's still called an LT1. Yet, it looses it's solid lifters in '73, and suddenly it's an L82?
The L82 was basically the LT-1 with an iron intake and a smaller carb. Same block. Same internals. Same pistons. Same 9.0 compression ratio.
I'll admit I'm wrong on the designation though (the 73-74 Z28s used the L82, not the LT-1).
04-30-2007, 06:53 AM
#36
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I don't know why people snicker at the Z24. Especially the early V6 versions. Their torque laden MPFI V6's (both 2.8 and 3.1) made them respectable performers on the street. They were also very affordable to buy and own - which made them popular.
The equivalent today would be like GM stuffing a 3.9 V6 or 3.6 HFV6 with a stick, into a Cobalt and selling it for under $20 grand.
The equivalent today would be like GM stuffing a 3.9 V6 or 3.6 HFV6 with a stick, into a Cobalt and selling it for under $20 grand.
04-30-2007, 07:07 AM
#37
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Guy, I would argue that the heads and intake (and cam) are what makes a particular small block what it is....of course the blocks didn't change...they pretty much didnt' change for 40 years. But, your point is still well taken.
I think by the time the LT-1 lost its heads, intake, carb, etc. it needed to have another name. It would have been an insult to put it on the L82 considering the precipitous drop in HP between the two.
I think by the time the LT-1 lost its heads, intake, carb, etc. it needed to have another name. It would have been an insult to put it on the L82 considering the precipitous drop in HP between the two.
04-30-2007, 09:23 AM
#40
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Sure, but what is it that will qualify a package to be called SS? I mean exactly. The Cobalt SS supercharged (dead for '08), for example, could put 99% of all the SS's ever produced on the trailer. If you sent an LS4 MC SS (dead before this year is out), in a time machine to 1970, it would eat most SS's for lunch - that is including most big blocks.
So what's the criterion?
So what's the criterion?
04-30-2007, 09:34 AM
#41
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I fully agree that the Cobalt SS Supercharged deserves the name - at least in the modern context. I think making the 2.4 "Sport" is good move. My guess is that they will reserve "SS" until the turbo becomes available. If the HHR is getting "SS" badges with the Turbo (which it appears to be getting unless they put them on the mules then covered them just to throw people off) I'd assume an eventual turbo Cobalt (assuming Cobalt continues) would get SS badges, too.
I hope to get the lowdown on this by later today.
04-30-2007, 12:08 PM
#42
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04-30-2007, 12:55 PM
#44
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I was being dismissive. To think there will not be a Z28 model in the 5th gen is just nuts. Every previous gen. offered a Z28. Maybe it will not be available the first year or months of the 5th gen. but you can be sure it is coming back!
Last edited by Hylton; 04-30-2007 at 12:58 PM.
04-30-2007, 01:14 PM
#45
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