View Poll Results: How much would you pay per pound to save weight?
Zero.
17
31.48%
$5 per pound
13
24.07%
$10 per pound
17
31.48%
$15 per pound
7
12.96%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll
How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
01-05-2006, 11:48 AM
#61
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Location: Providence, RI, USA
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Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by PacerX
A 4th Gen SS put the smack down on a C5 on a road course
I've seen a lot of surprising stuff at the track, but nothing that would make me believe a 4th-gen SS would anything LIKE hang with a C5. With equivalent skill behind the wheel, of course.
01-05-2006, 11:51 AM
#62
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin
yeeaaahh....
I've seen a lot of surprising stuff at the track, but nothing that would make me believe a 4th-gen SS would anything LIKE hang with a C5. With equivalent skill behind the wheel, of course.
I've seen a lot of surprising stuff at the track, but nothing that would make me believe a 4th-gen SS would anything LIKE hang with a C5. With equivalent skill behind the wheel, of course.
Just ask the mighty Red one.
Apparently Mr. Hill wasn't too happy about it...
01-05-2006, 11:52 AM
#63
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,479
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by PacerX
Even the LS's have a lot of content - which is the point... they're not stripped.
Originally Posted by PacerX
That 4th gen wasn't a Bilstein equipped SS on 275's, was it?
The Bilstein is a better than stock, very nice street suspension. Konis and higher straight rate springs take it to a whole different handling realm .... in exchange for a ride that only a select few ...myself included ... appreciate.
As an aside, there is way to little consideration given to tires when comparing stuff like skid pad and slalom numbers.
01-05-2006, 11:59 AM
#64
Prominent Member
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Guys,
Short of us getting a platform specific to the Camaro again....(I'd have a better chance of sprouting wings)...the "compromise" (not a fair analogy, but it's close) has already been made when the decision to build the new Camaro on the same platform that must carry other (bigger) cars was made.
I don't think anyone short of Dan Baldwin and a few others really wants a 2 seater / Kappa based Camaro....otherwise just buy a GXP Solstice / Sky.
As Scott pointed out in the other thread similar to this one, it's not like GM doesn't spent millions of dollars and man hours fighting the battle of the buldge....but it takes X amount of materials to build a car that is this size...that can be sold in a competitive market.
Short of expensive materials or leaving off options (which already has been proven to be a non-starter from a sales standpoint)..there is a point of diminishing returns.....so you just build more power and add larger handling components....which adds weight, and around we go.
There's no way in hell to build a 2,700# Camaro....(read into that what you will).
Short of us getting a platform specific to the Camaro again....(I'd have a better chance of sprouting wings)...the "compromise" (not a fair analogy, but it's close) has already been made when the decision to build the new Camaro on the same platform that must carry other (bigger) cars was made.
I don't think anyone short of Dan Baldwin and a few others really wants a 2 seater / Kappa based Camaro....otherwise just buy a GXP Solstice / Sky.
As Scott pointed out in the other thread similar to this one, it's not like GM doesn't spent millions of dollars and man hours fighting the battle of the buldge....but it takes X amount of materials to build a car that is this size...that can be sold in a competitive market.
Short of expensive materials or leaving off options (which already has been proven to be a non-starter from a sales standpoint)..there is a point of diminishing returns.....so you just build more power and add larger handling components....which adds weight, and around we go.
There's no way in hell to build a 2,700# Camaro....(read into that what you will).
01-05-2006, 12:00 PM
#65
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by poSSum
The point is that GM is offering the SS package on the base level Trailblazer ...whatever content that might be. That sets precedence for GM to use the same approach on the 5th gen.
We'll see...
We shall see...
Originally Posted by poSSum
It was a 1LE equipped SS on BFG KD's that beat the Z51 'vette.
The point was that no 3rd gen had a prayer or has a prayer of running with an SS.
Originally Posted by poSSum
As an aside, there is way to little consideration given to tires when comparing stuff like skid pad and slalom numbers.
The poor 3rd gen in this contest, at best, is on 20-year-old technology 16's, and believe you me kiddies, it's gonna get hammered.
01-05-2006, 12:04 PM
#66
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Location: Chicagoland IL
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Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by PacerX
I think we need to call into question the the qualifications of the last person who calibrated your a$$. 
BTW...
That 4th gen wasn't a Bilstein equipped SS on 275's, was it?
BTW...
That 4th gen wasn't a Bilstein equipped SS on 275's, was it?
And no, the 4th gen was a '93, so no Bilsteins. But my 3rd gen, which I compared it to, had it's factory installed monotube Bilsteins in place, (still does). Oh, and GM threw in a 40th anny Corvette for me to compare also.
Ok, I really HAVE to get to work now....
Last edited by Z284ever; 01-05-2006 at 08:51 PM.
01-05-2006, 12:06 PM
#67
Prominent Member
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin
yeeaaahh....
I've seen a lot of surprising stuff at the track, but nothing that would make me believe a 4th-gen SS would anything LIKE hang with a C5. With equivalent skill behind the wheel, of course.
I've seen a lot of surprising stuff at the track, but nothing that would make me believe a 4th-gen SS would anything LIKE hang with a C5. With equivalent skill behind the wheel, of course.
I know you're resume' on the track far outshadows mine, but.....I did it at Bragg-Smith....
'Bad Dave' reminded me more than once to back off the C5 in front of me...(but then again, I'm an aggressive driver). They put me as the lone SS in the C5 group...with Dave in a n SS also....we left the C5 group 1/2 track behind when we paired up.
Now as a C5 owner, I'd like to try it again....but part of me thinks the difference is the "typical" C5 owner doesn't drive his/her car at the levels the Camaro SS owner is willing to drive.......
01-05-2006, 12:10 PM
#68
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Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Oh, and one more thing....
Not to minimize the 4th gen outlapping the C5 thing, but you could put BFG KD's on a Colorado and handle like a champ....
Gotta go.
Not to minimize the 4th gen outlapping the C5 thing, but you could put BFG KD's on a Colorado and handle like a champ....
Gotta go.
01-05-2006, 12:11 PM
#69
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Location: Sterling Heights, MI
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Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
And no, the 4th gen was a '93, so no Bilsteins.
Seriously, I don't doubt a top-of-the-line L98 3rd Gen could hold its own against any 4th gen up until the SS debuted in '96. When you look at it like Dan pointed out, you'd have to be smoking some goood stuff to think the handling pecking order went something like
1992 Camaro Z28 > 2002 Camaro SS > C5 Corvette
01-05-2006, 12:12 PM
#70
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 2,801
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Yeah but the point is the car could be ordered from GM/SLP that way. Apples to apples guys..if we start going on about "what if the C5 had KD's or the IROC has KDs"
Well, that's great, but they didn't make 'em that way. As delivered, with the best options available, what runs a lap the fastest? That should be the debate, and of this there's a clear answer.
Well, that's great, but they didn't make 'em that way. As delivered, with the best options available, what runs a lap the fastest? That should be the debate, and of this there's a clear answer.
01-05-2006, 12:12 PM
#71
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Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Doug Harden
'Bad Dave'
01-05-2006, 12:26 PM
#72
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
I think you're missing my point Guy. I don't think Jessica would see the value in that $1,000. Nor am I saying she should pay that premium. But light weight should be a design priority from the start though. Jessica will appreciate the better gas mileage and sporty pick-up...she'll tell her friends too, and they'll be jealous of that efficient, sporty, Camaro. The thousand buck premium though, is for the enthusiast....not Jessica.
Alumunum, titainium, or angel dust add to the cost of a car. In a car like the Impala-Monte Carlo-LeCrosse-Grand Prix that sell half a mil per year can afford to have more exotic materials than a car expected to sell 100K per year at the same price. There has to be a profit of whatever level on the whole vehicle line. The price point per car can be lower on the W because there's going to be a million or more sold every 2 years. Lower production cars need a higher profit margin to be worthwhile.
And please, the fairy tale that the 4th gen died because it was too much of an 'enthusiast car' has grown extremely tiresome. Let's be perfectly honest....the 4th gen died because it was simply unappealing to more than 20-30,000 people per year. Period.
But getting back to enthusiasts and their cars - specialized lightweight kit on a specialized performance car, to an enthusiast, is like the scent of blood to a predator.....irresistible. One g-note for it is chump change.
It's time that Mustang had to compete with Camaro for a change....don't you think?
It's time that Mustang had to compete with Camaro for a change....don't you think?
Mustang SHOULD compete with Camaro for a change! Camaro has every potential to sell at the volume that Mustang does. Camaro has the potential to be a better value than Mustang is.
But it's a fantasy to think that's going to happen by spending $1000 to save a hundred or two hundred pounds instead of using that money for better interior materials, more NVH construction, better steering and suspension feel, and an easier to live with package.
Sure 5% of potential pony car buyers care a great deal about weight. However, the other 95% or potential pony car buyers and probally 100% of potential buyers who wouldn't have considered a pony car before aren't going to be concerned about 1-200 pounds as they are going to be about a car that's priced competitively.
01-05-2006, 12:28 PM
#73
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Location: The Golden State
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Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin
yeeaaahh....
I've seen a lot of surprising stuff at the track, but nothing that would make me believe a 4th-gen SS would anything LIKE hang with a C5. With equivalent skill behind the wheel, of course.
I've seen a lot of surprising stuff at the track, but nothing that would make me believe a 4th-gen SS would anything LIKE hang with a C5. With equivalent skill behind the wheel, of course.
... and Red's not the only source.
01-05-2006, 12:59 PM
#74
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
For your information, my butt is a finally tuned masterpiece of claibration. Really, I'm not kidding!
Originally Posted by Z284ever
And no, the 4th gen was a '93, so no Bilsteins.
Glad we can finally put a bullet in 3rd gen vs. 4th gen SS handling rumors.
Last edited by PacerX; 01-05-2006 at 01:03 PM.
01-05-2006, 01:02 PM
#75
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Location: Providence, RI, USA
Posts: 356
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Equivalent drivers AND equivalent tires, my money's still on the C5.
Given competent drivers in each car, tires will make a WORLD of difference. You guys got specifics on driver competence and tires used on each?
Having seen Dodge Omnis outrun Vipers at the track, I know full well that it is *possible* for a 4th gen to whup up on a C5. But given the two above stipulations and stock cars, I still don't see it happ'nin.
Though I appreciate as much as anyone the incredulity of overdogs having been beaten by "lesser" machinery at the track
Given competent drivers in each car, tires will make a WORLD of difference. You guys got specifics on driver competence and tires used on each?
Having seen Dodge Omnis outrun Vipers at the track, I know full well that it is *possible* for a 4th gen to whup up on a C5. But given the two above stipulations and stock cars, I still don't see it happ'nin.
Though I appreciate as much as anyone the incredulity of overdogs having been beaten by "lesser" machinery at the track