GM had BETTER NOT...
09-30-2009, 01:24 PM
#61
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Why in hades does that matter???? Everybody at GM isn't going to buy one either, does that mean that they should all agree to make boneheaded mistakes in the reliability department because of it?
"Well hell, I'm not buying one... let's go with 4-lug wheels."
I never bought a GMT-800, but does that mean I should have gone cheap on the seat frames I engineered for it???
"Awwww heck... Let's NOT use that super-spiffy and expensive ultra high strength steel and use some crappy HSLA instead... sure the frame will separate and send the driver rocketing through the windshield if he hits a brick wall at 40 mph... but everything is fine if he hits the brick wall at the Federally mandated 35!"
PS - My next car will probably be an old barge of a Cadillac. Late 60's/early 70's Coupe Deville... See... the cheapest way to go stupid fast is with a motorcycle, not a car, and I just love those old gigantic Cadillacs.
That being said, it'll probably be LS-series powered, and I sure as heck don't want to have to replace the pistons.
I still love cars, and still buy only Chevrolets for my DD's, but just can't justify spending $50,000 for an 11 second quarter mile when I can get a 9 for $13,000 and a super-nice classic Cadillac for the $37,000 I have left over.
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"Well hell, I'm not buying one... let's go with 4-lug wheels."
I never bought a GMT-800, but does that mean I should have gone cheap on the seat frames I engineered for it???
"Awwww heck... Let's NOT use that super-spiffy and expensive ultra high strength steel and use some crappy HSLA instead... sure the frame will separate and send the driver rocketing through the windshield if he hits a brick wall at 40 mph... but everything is fine if he hits the brick wall at the Federally mandated 35!"
PS - My next car will probably be an old barge of a Cadillac. Late 60's/early 70's Coupe Deville... See... the cheapest way to go stupid fast is with a motorcycle, not a car, and I just love those old gigantic Cadillacs.
That being said, it'll probably be LS-series powered, and I sure as heck don't want to have to replace the pistons.
I still love cars, and still buy only Chevrolets for my DD's, but just can't justify spending $50,000 for an 11 second quarter mile when I can get a 9 for $13,000 and a super-nice classic Cadillac for the $37,000 I have left over.
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09-30-2009, 01:24 PM
#62
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Simple indeed.
Now, ask yourself this. After the ~500 or so drag racers that intend to build 800+hp monsters buy their GT500s, how many non-drag-racers are going to choose the $42k Z28 over the $45k GT500?
The 42k price is just a stab in the dark, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
Now, ask yourself this. After the ~500 or so drag racers that intend to build 800+hp monsters buy their GT500s, how many non-drag-racers are going to choose the $42k Z28 over the $45k GT500?
The 42k price is just a stab in the dark, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
09-30-2009, 01:29 PM
#63
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Oy vey.
I never thought such a simple point could be missed so many different ways and so many times in the course of a thread.
Ok, deep breath. Here's a simple little exercise for you.
What is the car more gearheads and serious drag racers are going to plunk their hard-earned $45,000+ on.
I never thought such a simple point could be missed so many different ways and so many times in the course of a thread.
Ok, deep breath. Here's a simple little exercise for you.
What is the car more gearheads and serious drag racers are going to plunk their hard-earned $45,000+ on.
- Mustang GT500 with a motor capable of 800+ HP with no internal modifications.
- Camaro Z28 with a motor containing internals almost guaranteed to explode when approaching anywhere near said power levels.
09-30-2009, 01:54 PM
#64
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The 42k price is just a stab in the dark, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
Originally Posted by 2010_5thgen
i would gaurantee that most people that buy the car will probably keep the car stock.
Why put your reputation on the line to save a few dollars? Why would you not offer that peace of mind that Ford apparently can provide?
The bottom line is, you know which side of the fence I'm on regarding a 4000+ pound supercharged Camaro anyway. No, I have no vested interest in the car. But for goodness sake, if this is the direction you feel you have to go, can't you at least do the car right and give it the same "good stuff" your most direct competitor offers?
09-30-2009, 01:54 PM
#65
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-Geoff
09-30-2009, 02:03 PM
#66
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Long-term, how reliable is 10...15....18 psi going to be on an LS3 (or LSA in this case)? We don't know how the 2010 Camaro is going to do under sustained higher boost levels because the car is simply too new.
I am pretty sure however that there is a reason why few of these companies that sell aftermarket kits offer warranties on the engines/transmissions, and if they do, they are seldom past 1 year.
Last edited by Z28Wilson; 09-30-2009 at 02:15 PM.
09-30-2009, 02:04 PM
#67
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And how many non-drag racers will get a little concerned after reading about exploding LSAs in comparison shootouts or on the internet?
Oh, MSRPs for either car are most certainly a stab in the dark. I would wager however that since Camaro has a small "premium" price increase at every comparable level to Mustang as it is, the Z28 would be no different.
Maybe, maybe not. I have yet to see you or SSbaby give any credible reason why GM should NOT reinforce their performance reputation by forging the internals of the LSA. Cost? We're talking about the Corvette-money Camaro here, not the base LS.
Why put your reputation on the line to save a few dollars? Why would you not offer that peace of mind that Ford apparently can provide?
The bottom line is, you know which side of the fence I'm on regarding a 4000+ pound supercharged Camaro anyway. No, I have no vested interest in the car. But for goodness sake, if this is the direction you feel you have to go, can't you at least do the car right and give it the same "good stuff" your most direct competitor offers?
Oh, MSRPs for either car are most certainly a stab in the dark. I would wager however that since Camaro has a small "premium" price increase at every comparable level to Mustang as it is, the Z28 would be no different.
Maybe, maybe not. I have yet to see you or SSbaby give any credible reason why GM should NOT reinforce their performance reputation by forging the internals of the LSA. Cost? We're talking about the Corvette-money Camaro here, not the base LS.
Why put your reputation on the line to save a few dollars? Why would you not offer that peace of mind that Ford apparently can provide?
The bottom line is, you know which side of the fence I'm on regarding a 4000+ pound supercharged Camaro anyway. No, I have no vested interest in the car. But for goodness sake, if this is the direction you feel you have to go, can't you at least do the car right and give it the same "good stuff" your most direct competitor offers?
09-30-2009, 02:09 PM
#68
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And you'd be surprised at the number of enthusiasts that buy these kind of cars. Given their already low volumes/production and high price, i'd bet the percentage of enthusiast's is pretty high vs models like the v6 and SS. Your average buyer isn't going to plop down nearly 50k for a camaro or mustang that is based on a model that can be had for around 20k at the local dealership...it's the enthusiasts that will.
The other thing, ever since the 03 Cobra i get the feeling that the SVT mustang has attracted buyers who normally wouldn't look at the mustang. This is because the car has built a very good reputation among the other enthusiasts. Even those that hate mustangs will speak positively about the SVT.
09-30-2009, 02:27 PM
#69
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What z28wilson is trying to say is that GM won't lose the people who plan on keeping the car stock, but rather those enthusiasts that would modify. put forged pistons in and both the regular buyer and enthusiasts are happy. But keep the non-forged pistons and while the regular buyer as you described won't notice, the enthusiasts will. Why not satisfy both camps?? Why not go with the win-win instead of a win-loss??
And you'd be surprised at the number of enthusiasts that buy these kind of cars. Given their already low volumes/production and high price, i'd bet the percentage of enthusiast's is pretty high vs models like the v6 and SS. Your average buyer isn't going to plop down nearly 50k for a camaro or mustang that is based on a model that can be had for around 20k at the local dealership...it's the enthusiasts that will.
The other thing, ever since the 03 Cobra i get the feeling that the SVT mustang has attracted buyers who normally wouldn't look at the mustang. This is because the car has built a very good reputation among the other enthusiasts. Even those that hate mustangs will speak positively about the SVT.
And you'd be surprised at the number of enthusiasts that buy these kind of cars. Given their already low volumes/production and high price, i'd bet the percentage of enthusiast's is pretty high vs models like the v6 and SS. Your average buyer isn't going to plop down nearly 50k for a camaro or mustang that is based on a model that can be had for around 20k at the local dealership...it's the enthusiasts that will.
The other thing, ever since the 03 Cobra i get the feeling that the SVT mustang has attracted buyers who normally wouldn't look at the mustang. This is because the car has built a very good reputation among the other enthusiasts. Even those that hate mustangs will speak positively about the SVT.
as far as the pistons, there has to be some reasoning behind their actions. whether it be cost,stock, manufacturer. i dont know what it is and why they dont do it. especially if its something that is known to them.
09-30-2009, 03:08 PM
#70
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Enthusiast is a broad word. Anyone can call themselves an enthusiast. Im a car guy, kinda like an enthusiast............but lower class, lol. IMHO most of the buyers of the z28 will be automobile magazine readers, probably not car craft guys. Think about it, what could a car guy do with the extra $20,000 in price differance between the SS and the Z28. The brakes rock right out of the box, put a heads and cam on it, perhaps some boost and still be money ahead. Again, JMHO. Eric L
09-30-2009, 03:09 PM
#71
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The 10-bolt debacle wasn't a mass issue either. It was cost. If the stronger rear end had really pushed the car over an EPA bracket, then the reasonable response was to remove mass from the vehicle to offset it - that costs money.
If you do it WRONG, you just flush the money down the toilet and then try to make it up on an option package. If you do it right, you VA/VE the money you need out of the car elsewhere to the best of your ability and then slap the rest down on the option package.
Likewise, if it's an NVH issue, either solve the issue or accept the greater noise on a car like the Z28. Ford managed to do it on the GT500, so it ain't impossible.
Last edited by PacerX; 09-30-2009 at 03:11 PM.
09-30-2009, 03:24 PM
#72
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Do we know what the theoretical power limit of the LSA is?
First of all I'm all for the LSA and really any performance engine from GM to have forged internal parts. Especially at the cost of the CTS-V and what the Z/28 may come in at. There is no need to save some money on the engine when it's in a premium vehicle.
But that being said I'm not so sure the LSA is at or near its theoretical power peak. Hennessey (yea I know) is selling 650, 700 and 800 hp engine packages for the CTS-V LSA and they don't list touching the stock block. They do add heads/cam and swap blower pulleys for the V700 package is listed as over 600 rwhp.
Durability is always a question especially at these HP levels. But I'm just not convinced that the LSA is right on the edge of its power potential and a pulley or supercharger swap is going to blow holes in the hypereutectic pistons. I just can't see GM putting a supercharged LS engine in an expensive Caddy that Bob Lutz is challenging the worlds best uber sedans with and not having a comfortable 20 - 25% safety factor on engine power and durability.
First of all I'm all for the LSA and really any performance engine from GM to have forged internal parts. Especially at the cost of the CTS-V and what the Z/28 may come in at. There is no need to save some money on the engine when it's in a premium vehicle.
But that being said I'm not so sure the LSA is at or near its theoretical power peak. Hennessey (yea I know) is selling 650, 700 and 800 hp engine packages for the CTS-V LSA and they don't list touching the stock block. They do add heads/cam and swap blower pulleys for the V700 package is listed as over 600 rwhp.
Durability is always a question especially at these HP levels. But I'm just not convinced that the LSA is right on the edge of its power potential and a pulley or supercharger swap is going to blow holes in the hypereutectic pistons. I just can't see GM putting a supercharged LS engine in an expensive Caddy that Bob Lutz is challenging the worlds best uber sedans with and not having a comfortable 20 - 25% safety factor on engine power and durability.
Last edited by 99SilverSS; 09-30-2009 at 04:01 PM.
09-30-2009, 03:36 PM
#73
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Enthusiast is a broad word. Anyone can call themselves an enthusiast. Im a car guy, kinda like an enthusiast............but lower class, lol. IMHO most of the buyers of the z28 will be automobile magazine readers, probably not car craft guys. Think about it, what could a car guy do with the extra $20,000 in price differance between the SS and the Z28. The brakes rock right out of the box, put a heads and cam on it, perhaps some boost and still be money ahead. Again, JMHO. Eric L
But that being said I'm not so sure the LSA is at or near its theoretical power peak. Hennessey (yea I know) is selling 650, 700 and 800 hp engine packages for the LSA and they don't list touching the stock block. They do add heads/cam and swap blower pulleys for the V700 package is listed as over 600 rwhp.
09-30-2009, 04:01 PM
#74
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http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/...ctionReq=Where
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz7L_...eature=related
09-30-2009, 04:11 PM
#75
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are you talking about a regular guy buying a v6, would not buy a z28? why not? its the same now with the v6 vs the ss. they are still buying them. thats why they have dealer brochures and literature. to teach people who dont know about the car. to show they have options. just like a regualr guy going to buy a mercedes. he wants a regular s class. but once he gets there, hes got 5 different options. and he sees the AMG version and buys it. so regular people will go in and buy the upgraded model even though they know little or nothign about it.
We are talking about a low volume high performance niche car with a relatively high price tag. Not a high volume car so the cars cater to a more select group of people than the v6 camaro or even SS.
It's obvious when you see the following the SVT mustang has. Ford knows that enthusiasts and car guys/gals make up a good chunk of their buyers more so than the typical v6 or GT buyer. You seem to imply that the enthusiasts and car guys/gals are negligible and thus ignorable group in this class of cars. Well they are not. Cars like the SVT mustang, EVO, STI, etc... do get modified and i'd bet at a higher percentage than their cheaper siblings. Again, i'm not saying the majority will be modified but a good chunk will.