King Moose SS

Great Write!

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not a fan of the laser cut keys, I had them for the Saab 9-3 my mother owned. They constantly failed from magnets or something. One time the dealer said it was the cell phone . I don't know what the dealio is, but I really prefer the old school 1990's exotic keys. You know the ferrari's with the switch blade keys, those were bad ***.

As for dealerships, I feel your pain.... try being 18 and going to the dealership, it is literally war. I think this is a problem that GM should address, its becoming ridiculous, and its a real big turnoff to a potential buyer.

SSbaby

That's one amazing write-up.

I could sense your excitement and dismay very clearly in the text!

Oh, I love Seattle, too!

Well done!

JakeRobb

When/if I visit a dealership to talk about a 5th gen Camaro, the first thing I'm going to do is ask if they're marking them up over MSRP. If the answer is anything other than "no," I'm going to turn around and walk out without another word.

speeding2fast2c

Oh, don't get me wrong....I didn't think for a minute that you were an engineer. That's kind of my point! Believe me, I know that there are alot of engineers out there that could very well be some of the dumbest people around. I wrenched for three years at a dealer, and I can't tell you how mad you can get working on some of these cars because of the ways the cars were engineered. However, for some reason, and the general public will probably never reall know, there is a reason something was designed and made the way it was.

Remember, the car you drove (V6), you can get from 24k-30k!

I know BMW's are nice cars. I hope people realize though that they too have their share of problems as well. Again, working at dealers for a combine total of about five and half years, part of that time was spent as a used car service manager. I would say that 8-9 out of 10 BMW's that we got went to the dealer for problems. Most of those made a second trip back after it had gone the first time. Most of those issues were electrical. (I know someone is going to say; well GM has a recall for the battery cables--yeah well keep in mind that alot of the first test cars that get built take a little longer because the process is done a little slow. The recall might just be because the cables are produced and place on the car at a higher rate, therefore allowing for the mistake to have been made.

I agree that there are still somethings that will hopefully get improved when GM gets back on there feet a bit. I hope that happens sooner then later. But to have produced this car as you see it, with the condition that the company is in, you have to give them credit.

Keep in mind that you did drive the V6 cars and that is the thought in mind for that car. They are trying to get the best trade off between performance and quality. Try driving a 2SS and see if the opinion changes a bit (I know you did mention that that is hard to do right now. I would't bet dealers are allowing many if any test drives).

I'm really kind of interested as too how many times you have had to take your Volkswagens to the dealer for issues, especially compared to how many times your Chevrolet has gone in (given that they are all about the same age)? Only reason I ask, is because I worked at an import center group of dealers (one of which was VW) and VW was by far the busiest (the others being Nissan, Mazda, & Subaru). I'm sorry but VW makes horrible cars!

So, I'm sorry if I come off sounding like an ***, I'm really not trying to be. I just don't see eye to eye with you on some things. There is one thing that we agree on for sure though....

JeremyNYR

He didn't actually think that you thought he was an engineer! His line was sarcastic. Also, I suggest that you make it a practice to read the entire original post before replying. Your initial reply looked pretty foolish since you only skimmed his original post and assumed that he was advocating the addition of T-tops to the 5th gen.

speeding2fast2c

Trust me I completely understand the fact that his comment was sarcastic. I didn't actually think that he thought I thought he was an engineer for that matter. I can use sarcasism too! I suggest that you read things a little more and undertsand what you are reading before you reply back. The whole point of my comment to him was the fact that he isn't an engineer (I'm not an engineer, and I have no doubt that you're not an engineer) and probably will never really know why the decissions on what materials to use, where to place this button or that item, or whatever. Things are done for certain reasons that the consumer may never understand.

And, NO I don't believe that my comment sounded foolish at all, having skimmed it or not. In fact, I fully read the part he said about the "t-tops" and might have even read it a little closer then you. Here it is again....If you read the bold print part of it, it might be a little clearer as to why I made the comment I did. I know he is not trying to advocate the t-tops, but I wasn't sure if he understood why it wasn't something this model will be offering. It has been mentioned in other posts before and people are still crying over the issue. Deal with it, and if you want the view of the sky, then wait for the convertible!!!

97QuasarBlue3.8

Undoubtedly we're at different points in our lives. The things I value in cars now are different than what you value. They're also different from what I valued 10 years ago.

The Camaro is a car that provides horsepower first and foremost. At $24k, it's shortcomings in other areas are mostly forgivable. At $35k, certain things start to compose a list of gross oversights. But that's also dependent on what you value. If what you want is horsepower, 400+ will definitely ring your bell and the rest is inconsequential.

When you look at the things I value in cars now (hint: horesepower is not at the top of my list), and the available selection of more "grown up" cars for $35k, let alone what I could get into for $40k, I start turning a shade of interested and really consider my available options. If I was 18-22, there'd be no doubt I would have snapped up that Red RS on Saturday.

TTopJohn

I like your writeup, thanks for putting so much time into it.

My take on the interior is that it's a big step up from a 3rd or 4th gen, and really that's all it needed to be. I feel like I've come full circle on interiors. In 1999 I'd tell you that what I really wanted was a BMW interior in my 4th gen. Today, with some BMW experience under my belt, I've decided that no interior is perfect, and I actually like my 4th gen interior more than before. Belive it or not, some things about a 97-02 4th gen interior are better than a 95-01 BMW 7 series interior - the 4th gen cupholders don't break, the 7s do, all the time, to the point that it is advisable to never use them. And when they break, they no longer retract and cost $250 to replace. Vs. the swing out cupholder in my 4th gen that is still going strong. And, the 7 (and the 5 and X5 of similar vintage) eats power window regulators much more often than a 4th gen. I kid you not.

I've got leather wear issues on the Bimmer just like the leather wear issues you cite (and I've experienced) on a 4th gen. Both are, in my opinion, are no big deal things that happen to all cars. More importantly, this is easliy remedied with a redye, or an easy to do at home recovering every 7 to 10 years.

The 5th gen interior needs leather, the acrylic trim, and a manual transmission (for shift boot reasons) to look its best. It's not as finely detailed as an Audi A8, but the good pats of it (nice button feel, supportive seats, available leather on the control surfaces & the center armrest) more than outweigh the "okay" parts for me.

Oh, and to throw my 2 cents in on T-Tops, yeah, I'm afraid they won't happen from the factory on a 5th gen. But I hope we see an aftermarket kit. And I think the existence of Targa tops (Solstice, C6) proves that it COULD be done safely at the factory. But it won't be done. And to the dude who says they aren't safe becasue he rolled his car - buddy, the unsafe part of that was you, rolling your car, not the t-tops.

speeding2fast2c

Well, Seeing that three of the five Camaros I currently have are V6s, horsepower is not the top of my list either. I preferr a durable, comfortable, and refined type of vehicle. I too had looked at and considered a BMW, a Z4 to be more exact, but seeing there were electrical issues with it I changed my mind (yes it was a used Z4).

I hope by putting "grown up" in quotes like you did and I just did wasn't suppose to be a type of insult torwards me, or towards the Camaro either. I would say that this Camaro is very much a "grown up" car. It's also the time of car that "grown up" people like to get to feel somewhat young again. Gee, kind of like when people buy a corvette or other sports cars during their mid-life crisis.

97QuasarBlue3.8

No offense intended with anything placed in quotes. My definition of a grown-up car is different than yours, that's all. It's no better or worse, and the only thing it has the potential to affect are my personal buying decisions.

I think you've got me pegged as a BMW fanboy since this is the second time you've brought up electrical issues with a used BMW in comparison to a Camaro. It's not true. And I'm not sure what relevance the comparison plays. In my original post, $35k or $40k will get you into a lot of cars--not just a BMW, and that includes some other American models as well.

However, I'm taking you less seriously now that you said you chose a V6 Camaro over a used Z4 (we'll assume any available used Z4) citing refinement as one of your arguments.

Gold_Rush

Some seemed to have overlooked this. It's ridiculous how defensive some sound over someone else's opinion of the car.

Great write up. I look forward to sitting and driving the 2010's as soon as i'm out of school. I have yet to see one up close in person.

97QuasarBlue3.8

Winner. For those who disagree, you all are welcome to post your own editorial.

BigDarknFast

Wow, that's some pretty blatant hypocrisy. Have you already forgotten the other statement you made above?

"The things I value in cars now are different than what you value. "

I'd choose a V6 Camaro any day over the bug-ugly Z4.

97QuasarBlue3.8

Styling is usually not included in arguments of refinement. Perceptions of styling are highly subjective whereas refinement is more objective--measurable by things like types of materials used, tolerances, available features and options, engineering aspects, etc.

And since the guy doesn't currently claim to own a 5th gen car, we're assuming <2002 model year V6 Camaro and prior.

Do you really want to get into this argument with me?

BigDarknFast

You seem to have two sets of standards. One, for the imports you clearly favor. The other, much more demanding and lofty, for American cars like the new Camaro. That's what troubles me.