wildpaws

The "P" stood for Production. What you are overlooking is what type of Production. COPOs were Central Office Production Order, they were very limited SPECIAL orders that were not regular production vehicles and could not be ordered by just anyone. RPOs such as RPO Z/28 were a Regular Production Order that was available for anyone to order from any dealer. While Z/28 was an RPO designation that went on to become a model name, what you are overlooking is it was called Z/28 from the very first press showing right on through the first production models, while they had no Z/28 emblems, they were in fact called Z/28 from day one. And surely the SS Camaro was never called the Z27 by anyone outside of Chevrolet. ZL1 Vettes? There were only two ever produced, both in 1969, hardly the qualification for a model name.
Clyde

wildpaws

Doug,
I'll have to agree that at least the '70 and a half Z/28 was such a car, I also have to agree with many of your statements. I don't wish to see a decontented car that won't sell to the general public, but I do wish to see one that reaches out to both the mass market as well as true performance enthusiasts who care about more than big HP numbers, people that want an excellent "curve carver".
Clyde

Z284ever

Yes, that point often comes up I've noticed. Mention that you'd want a Z/28 to perform a certain way and some people immediately conclude you'd want a stripper, ie., no AC, roll up windows, etc. Don't know why, but they do. No one is saying that at all. I like the approach GM took on the C5 Z06. That car was pretty well focused and still made up 20-25% of Corvette's sales volume.

Let's just make the call, that GM was having a pretty tough time for the past few years, and what's done is done. Now that they have cash and an upcoming appropriate architecture to use though - no more excuses.

1fastdog

My point earlier regarding what a Z/28 "should be" is to suggest that it's a paradigm which is different, depending on what person you talk to.

I figure I have some ideas of my own, as I have owned a Z/28 from every generation.

I'm involved with road racing, carbon fiber race bodies, and aero treatments... I think I have some understanding of the advantages of weight when it comes to performance dynamics. I don't say this to suggest I'm in posession of superior opinion, as I truly don't. What I suggest is that friends of mine who are engineers know what I know BETTER than I do.

IF a higher performance Camaro is on the horizon, we will have to wait and see what it might be called. I ain't sayin'.

Any notion that Chevy doesn't want to appeal to EVERY buyer is false.

My opinion is that some folks forget, that the new Camaro is not a done deal in enhancements. Look back to the changes which were done between '67 and '69. Huge handling difference...

It's always a buyer's market. Chevrolet is still listening to buyers.

Z284ever

Sure, you're going to hear alot of stuff from alot of people, and if I may be so bold, many of them don't know what they're talking about or have any intention to buy.

Cars like the Z/28 and for that matter, the Z06, require an internal champion. Say what you will about Dave Hill not being a friend to the Camaro community, but he certainly did go about his Corvette business like a true stud.

Think about what he needed to go through to create the C5 Z06. Putting it on the lightest most rigid body style ONLY. Making it available with stick ONLY. Limiting it's content. Hotrodding the LS1 to create the LS6...I could go on and on. And all he ever heard from "prospective buyers" was: I want a Z06 automatic. I want a Z06 convertible. I want a Z06 with AWD so I can drive it in the winter. I want a Z06 with butt massager and cooled headrests. Hill's unflinching response was always, No. No. No. No pinhead. No.

Gotta respect that. He knew who the car's real buyers were and weren't. He protected it and people were attracted to it's focus.

I love the C6 Z06 too, but it no longer has a champion to fight for it. It doesn't have it's own specific body type, it's ridiculously expensive, it has a ZR1 above it and a "Z06 light" in the form of the GS below it. It has been squeezed for every last quick dollar, by marketing people who are disconnected from it, and is now all but dead sales-wise.


The Z/28 and Z06 both require stubborn proponents with ballsy swagger within GM, if they are to thrive as sub-brands. They need to know who to listen to and who the posers are.

99SilverSS

Well we can debate the semantics of what qualified as a production 1st Gen Camaro some other time. But it's always good to see that others are as into Camaro/Chevrolet history as I am.

This origionally started as me floating the idea that a big issue with the rumored LSA powered Camaro isn't the car itself but using of the Z28 brand on it. So I threw out the ZL-1 idea as an option because of it's historical significance with Camaro and Chevrolet.
Obviously I'm not the only one who sees the significance of the ZL1 beacuse it looks like SLP has registered ZL1 and uses it on their top performance 5th Gen Camaro.

Not that GM will call this rumored uber Camaro anything but Z28. The brand heritage is too strong to ignore. I'm just not sure I would if it was my call.

94LightningGal

Actually, I don't think it is so much the brand heritage, as the marketing heritage that has determined that this car is called Z/28.

Namely, that it is a "brand" that can be milked for money. Unfortunately, it has been this way for Z/28 for a long time. That is why so many of us would like to see "New GM" do something new.

90 Z28SS

Damn Charlie, most excellent post .

1fastdog

Everyone has something to say. There's usually a pearl or two you can get to. Patience and careful questions determine what's of any real worthy attention.



I like Dave Hill. He did have a disconcerting habit of talking about himself in the third person. Perhaps a mechanism which avoided direct conflict.

C5 was not Dave's tour de force. Lots of that work was done by McLellan and his staff. Ken Brown and his compadre Mike Neal handled the chassis work, Tadge was in the trenches, and a whole slew which will remain unsung.

Hill is a heck of a guy and engineer, no doubt. C6 has him all over it. That was his mark. I'm not shorting his leadership. Just offering a voice in the wilderness.

OK, that's an opinion. It's actually the one to buy, IMO... but the ticket is a strong point of entry for most. I do wish the decision to opt for the heavy glassed hatch hadn't won out, but things go the way they go. The GS is proof that the base car doesn't have enough styling kick to it at this point. That is the real deal...No doubt the ZR1 is a bad boy which would have been untouchable at 2900 pounds. The ZR1 is a halo statement.

IMO, the C6 Z06 is an absolute "steal" in the present market. The GS is sweet. So is the base car. There is no "dog" Corvette among the C6's.

There is no "dog" 5th gen Camaro either. It does come down to a matter of preferences, and in some instances, mindset.

Z284ever

In no way do I want to imply that Hill was a one man show. Lots of people worked hard to create a great product. The point I'm trying to make is, that in his capacity, Dave Hill was an unwavering bulwark against the pressure to dilute the Z06 for mass appeal, rather than a focused package for the purist.

jg95z28

My primary issue with the LSA Z28 is that you're putting a tight grip on its performance upgrade potential and placing a high sticker price on it.

When the LSA Camaro hits the street, it won't be difficult for someone to take a used LS3 Camaro, add some bolt-ons, and blow the doors off the LSA... for a lot less money. Now if the Z28 came with an LS7, or a different larger displacement N/A V8, at least matching its potential with the SS would be more difficult to achieve, plus you'd also have more upgrade potential for the Z28 with aftermarket bolt-on forced induction.

Slappy3243

I honestly don't care much about the roots of the Z/28. I would rather have a car that has massive power and a tweaked suspension for better performance. I don't think ridding the 5th gen of weight is really possible. Maybe the next generation can. I wouldn't be interested in a Z/28 that competes against the Boss Mustang. It would just not be comfortable enough for me to drive around daily. Look at the Boss. I wouldn't want it as my daily driver. If I had enough money to buy the Boss as a second car, I could just get an SS and mod it for the track . To me, the whole Z/28 thing is getting blown out of proportion. That is just my opinion

Z284ever

I'd doubt that very many people will buy a Z/28 or Boss as a daily driver. But beyond that, what about the Boss seems uncomfortable to you?

Slappy3243

So you think there are enough people that are able to afford a Boss or a Z/28 as a weekend toy only? I don't know about that. Most of the people on this message board seem to be average guys and gals and live comfortably, but do not have enough money to buy a Mustang just for racing. The same would go for the Z/28.

As far as the Boss goes, I would be scared to break the air splitter pulling into most shopping centers around here (although it is not even legal to have it installed while on the street). I would bet 90% of the people would not even have this car at a track anyway. Since the point of the car is racing on the track, it would have no rear seats, making the Corvette an option in the price range. The suspension is going to be tuned for track use, making driving it on the street daily tiresome. Even the Bilstein suspension on my Firehawk gets tiring on longer drives although the car handles very well. I imagine the suspension on the Boss is way more aggressive. Many of the parts on that car are going to cost a lot more to fix since it is not your everyday Mustang. Even cosmetic damage is going to be expensive to fix. I understand why people would want this car for the track.

Basically, I don't see many people buying this car just for track use.

Z284ever

Absolutely. The average guy and gal doesn't buy a ~ $50K (not including dealer markup), Camaro or Mustang. And those that do are more than likely buying them as weekend toys.



I see what you're saying regarding the splitter, but the Boss comes with adjustable shocks and also with a back seat, (unless you get the more expensive Laguna Seca version which comes with extra stiffening where the back seat was). But I agree that most Boss's will see more action on cruise night than they would on a road course. Same for the Z/28.