Camaro Copo
11-03-2011, 02:09 AM
#16
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Re: Camaro Copo
The point I was making, is prior to Monday's announcement, the GM Performance parts website was advertising their body-in-white Camaro as a "COPO" Camaro. This new "COPO" Camaro for stock eliminator is simply another "COPO" Camaro. The distinction being different part numbers.
P.S. And technically, the 1969 COPOs were based on the Camaro SS 396.
http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#COPO
Last edited by jg95z28; 11-03-2011 at 02:12 AM.
11-05-2011, 07:50 AM
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11-07-2011, 07:52 PM
#20
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Re: Camaro Copo
That is interesting to see, and exciting. Do we know any more info on that rear end?
Also Jason, in this weeks podcast, you mentioned you were going to talk about the 327 in five episodes. Is there more info that we an expect from this? Are we going to expect more news between now and then? We know you were talking to some people who would know while at SEMA. And if you listen closely...its almost like you have a smirk while you say it. hmmm...
Edit: nevermind...just went back to re-read.
Now back to my other questions....
Also Jason, in this weeks podcast, you mentioned you were going to talk about the 327 in five episodes. Is there more info that we an expect from this? Are we going to expect more news between now and then? We know you were talking to some people who would know while at SEMA. And if you listen closely...its almost like you have a smirk while you say it. hmmm...
Edit: nevermind...just went back to re-read.
Strange Engineering S-9 solid rear axle with aluminum third member, 35-spline spool, 35-spline axles and 4.10 gear set
Last edited by Chevycobb; 11-07-2011 at 07:54 PM.
11-08-2011, 08:29 PM
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Re: Camaro Copo
Thats like saying the RPO Z28 is not its own car because its basically a RPO Z27 SS with a DZ302.
Nothing made a car an SS or a Z28 other than the motor. Yes I think the Z28 had the same heavy duty radiator the COPO ZL1 did but you can not authenticate them that way. If you buy one of those cars today there is no way to tell from the VIN as you should know. The VIN indicates V8 and Convertible or hard top. Thats it. To authenticate a Z28 you have to match the VIN to the partial VIN on the DZ302 either under the alternator or above the oil filter.
You could also use the protecto plates some cars had with the X codes in 69 however Z28, SS and COPO all used various X codes.
Although it was the worst kept secret, the only reason the COPO ZL1 Camaro car didnt get its own emblems and stickers was most likely to keep from blatantly violating GM / Ford agreement to stop racing each other as well as GM's policy of big engine goes in big cars, and little engine goes in little cars.
I am glad GM is for the first time finally giving the COPO ZL1 its due. Aside from the limited GMMP 4th gen intentionally limited to 69 models. Nothing limited the original 1969 cars to 69 cars other than the market. If they had sold the COPO would have eventually got their own badges.
The ZL1 which nails the spirit of the 1969 COPO ZL1 is just sweet. Although the original like most muscle cars of the 60's were better in a straight line. Part of that I think is due to the limits of technology at the time. Even with cars that were supposed to be able to handle. People expect todays cars with todays technology to handle. I know I do.
This COPO drag car split personality pays homage to the drag car and is to me just icing on the cake.
P.S. And technically, the 1969 COPOs were based on the Camaro SS 396.
http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#COPO
http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#COPO
COPO 9560 Camaros came from the factory with the ZL-1 aluminum 427ci engine, a HD 4.10 ratio 12-bolt rear-end, HD radiator, cowl induction, special springs, and transistorized ignition. It could be had as either an automatic or a manual. Additional options could be combined with the COPO option, but every COPO order had to be specially approved by Chevrolet management. Originally, the plan was to have 50 cars built and shipped to Fred Gibb (dealer/racer). Other dealers got wind of the order and the total build ended up being 69 cars. The original order of 50 was built identically except for exterior paint and transmission. In the supplemental 19 units there were 2 RallySport cars and 2 double COPO 9737 cars.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 11-08-2011 at 09:08 PM.
11-09-2011, 06:20 PM
#23
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Re: Camaro Copo
From the same link...
Z28 was a separate RPO. The COPOs were not.
The most famous first-generation COPO Camaros were 1969 COPOs 9560 and 9561. COPO 9560 was a special run of 1969 Camaros based off of the SS package (minus the SS badges) and with a 427ci aluminum block engine (ZL-1) making at least 430 HP (a conservative factory number). Only 69 of these were built. COPO 9561 was another special run of 1969 Camaros equipped with the cast iron version of the 427ci engine (L72). Both of these COPOs started, on paper, with a RPO L78 SS396 Camaro baseline but were modified as guided by a document called the Exception Control List for that COPO; components were added and substituted until the required result was achieved. There were few options that could not theoretically have been added to either COPO, but one of them was air conditioning (RPO C60); GM would not install factory air in a vehicle with a solid lifter engine like either of the ZL1 and L72 options (the production L78 and Z28 engines were also solid lifter engines). JL8 disc brakes (not available in the COPO axle) and C05 convertible are also believed to have been unacceptable options. COPO Camaros in original condition are extremely valuable.
11-10-2011, 02:41 PM
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Re: Camaro Copo
Right. Based off SS not that they were SS. I dont even think there were 396's pulled from existing COPO cars. At least in 1969. They may have been swapped out before that. The 427's were intented for the chasis they went into. I would be curious if the engines partial VIN's matched the VIN.
And Z28 was an RPO the COPO ZL1 was COPO not RPO.
If the Z28 didnt have badges wed be having the same argument about it being nothing more than a DZ302 engine. That's how silly that is.
In fact COPO 9567 may have been essentially equivelent to the RPO according to your link complete with striping. They may have been named ZL1, it could have gone the Z28 route and named COPO 9567 or some other name.
The car was one success story of your whole argument being moot. It probably would have received what amounted to nothing more than a marketing appearance change with an official name externally.
And Z28 was an RPO the COPO ZL1 was COPO not RPO.
If the Z28 didnt have badges wed be having the same argument about it being nothing more than a DZ302 engine. That's how silly that is.
In fact COPO 9567 may have been essentially equivelent to the RPO according to your link complete with striping. They may have been named ZL1, it could have gone the Z28 route and named COPO 9567 or some other name.
The car was one success story of your whole argument being moot. It probably would have received what amounted to nothing more than a marketing appearance change with an official name externally.
The COPO 9567 proposal was dreamed up as a response. Vince Piggins and his GM design staff hand-built 2 of these prototypes. COPO 9567 was not an attempt to build a cheaper ZL-1 car, as the proposed price of this model was well beyond the price of a 9560, at $8581.60 for an M21 4-speed car and $8676.60 for a HD M40 equipped car. The 9567 was intended to be a more streetable car, running 11:1 CR as opposed to 12:1. Both 9567 prototypes were Tuxedo Black Rally Sports with special gold striping, and were very similar, but with distinct differences. While most of the 9560s were plain-jane cars, the 9567s were all jazzed up, pretty as a picture. The location of the prototypes is not known. Unfortunately for posterity, this COPO never made it to production.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 11-10-2011 at 02:50 PM.
11-12-2011, 02:51 PM
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11-12-2011, 08:50 PM
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Re: Camaro Copo
No badges on a 1967 Z28? Kinda like the COPO ZL1? Sounds familiar...
Z28 must not have been a trim level in 1967... Unless you are saying official badges arent what makes a trim level.
I guess the problem even though the COPO ZL1 engine was installed at the factory in the Factory COPO cars because they didnt have an RPO # then to you it doesnt count. That also would mean if the 1967 Z28 package was a COPO code instead of an RPO it would be in the same boat. It definitely would be if it had the same political issues to deal with. One step further if Z28 failed business wise due to limited sales where the next year 1968 it was canceled then you have a similar case. Especially since both the Z28 and COPO ZL1 came about to go racing.
That would make the Z28 / SS enhancement RPO 1LE in later years a trim level itself although in reality it was very close and probably should have been. Heck there are RPO's for automatic transmissions, power windows and a bunch of other things that have nothing to do with trim levels.
This is all marketing. Kinda like it used to be that Mustang Cobra's did not exist, despite Shelby Mustangs having the snake emblem. The Cobra was the two seater sport / muscle car. The Super Snake used to be only literally 2 cars with dual supercharged AC Cobra's before a couple years back Super Snake was added to the Mustang.
Z28 must not have been a trim level in 1967... Unless you are saying official badges arent what makes a trim level.
I guess the problem even though the COPO ZL1 engine was installed at the factory in the Factory COPO cars because they didnt have an RPO # then to you it doesnt count. That also would mean if the 1967 Z28 package was a COPO code instead of an RPO it would be in the same boat. It definitely would be if it had the same political issues to deal with. One step further if Z28 failed business wise due to limited sales where the next year 1968 it was canceled then you have a similar case. Especially since both the Z28 and COPO ZL1 came about to go racing.
That would make the Z28 / SS enhancement RPO 1LE in later years a trim level itself although in reality it was very close and probably should have been. Heck there are RPO's for automatic transmissions, power windows and a bunch of other things that have nothing to do with trim levels.
This is all marketing. Kinda like it used to be that Mustang Cobra's did not exist, despite Shelby Mustangs having the snake emblem. The Cobra was the two seater sport / muscle car. The Super Snake used to be only literally 2 cars with dual supercharged AC Cobra's before a couple years back Super Snake was added to the Mustang.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 11-12-2011 at 09:48 PM.
11-14-2011, 02:21 PM
#30
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Re: Camaro Copo
Yes it was. It was RPO Z28.
That is exactly what I am saying.
You're clouding the facts. "COPOs" started life as Camaro SS trimmed cars who had motors and other components swapped out through the COPO process. "COPO" is a document/order that creates these unique vehicles. In its original inception and intent, it was done to order special cars to be used for special purposes.
The Z28 was never a COPO? Why? Because it was created exclusively to run TransAm, and as a rule, it was required that at least 500 "production" versions were built in order to be "legal" to race in the series.
I guess the problem even though the COPO ZL1 engine was installed at the factory in the Factory COPO cars because they didnt have an RPO # then to you it doesnt count. That also would mean if the 1967 Z28 package was a COPO code instead of an RPO it would be in the same boat. It definitely would be if it had the same political issues to deal with. One step further if Z28 failed business wise due to limited sales where the next year 1968 it was canceled then you have a similar case. Especially since both the Z28 and COPO ZL1 came about to go racing.
The Z28 was never a COPO? Why? Because it was created exclusively to run TransAm, and as a rule, it was required that at least 500 "production" versions were built in order to be "legal" to race in the series.