super83Z

Someone posted the specs of this car on another site. Impressive weight

*LSA @ 10psi
*Jordan Innovations Mil-Spec engine and chassis harnesses, with Mil-Spec Tefzel wire, chemical/flame retardant loom and Amphenol circular connectors throughout
*Eibach's best coilovers/sways
*Exedy twin plate clutch and flywheel
*Seibon Carbon Fiber fenders/hood/trunk/doors
*Forgeline 18"/19" Wheels (we couldn't get ours on his car this year, hopefully next year!)
*Upgraded Brembo's (CTS-V) in front, stock Brembos in back

~600whp, 3061 lbs dry

http://www.formulad.com/blog/2009/fd...camaro-for-fd/

guionM

The weight ISN'T impressive.

It IS about where one would expect it to be, though.

These cars are stripped to the bone.

The Drift Dodge Charger is stripped of over 900 pounds of weight (Camaro is stripped of just over 800).

Almost all of the weight savings is due to turning a regular passenger car into nothing more than a body with a powerful drivetrain and little else. All this goes to ask the question once again what is one prepared to give up to save weight since this shows you how much weight goes to creature comforts as well as power, electronic everything that we accept as the norm and refuse to do without.

Rhys Millen's Pontiac GTO drift car weighed in at 3050 pounds from a production GTO that weighed a hair under 3800 pounds.

By the way, Dodge also entered a new drift Challenger, so with Ford getting into drifting last spring with the new Mustang, Drifting is the 1st competitive sport that all 3 cars can actually compete in.



http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6333...how/index.html

super83Z

I wasn't expecting 3000lbs. All the "experts" on here say the weight is due to the heft of the car and not the safety and comfort stuff. I mean if you blindly follow that you would expect the interior to only weigh 200 lbs.

Plus its an add and subtract game. They added a cage and other safety stuff. The LSA adds some weight too.

Big Als Z

Had there been a cammed LS3, would have shaved off maybe another 100-150lbs.
It also has carbon fiber body pannels...so there is a lot of weight savings over the steel units.

There is no dount that the car could loose 150lbs easy, as it sits.

guionM

That Camaro doesn't have carbon fiber "body panels". It has a carbon fiber hood.

Also, to say there's another 150lbs "easy" to lose isn't being very realistic outside of using a non blown engine as you mentioned. If there was an "easy" 150 pounds more to lose, then these guys who actually strip weight out of a car for a living, and know the limits of what you can actually do, and perhaps might be far more knowledgeable than we are would have also easily found it and taken that weight out. Since there's no power limit (a concept foriegn to most NASCAR fans ), the LSA is a necessity for serious competition.

Regarding carbon fiber...and you are by no means the only person who's thought this.....carbon fiber isn't a miracle weight loss material. I get a feeling that quite a few people feel if you unbolt and toss out a 5 pound steel fender, and replace it with a carbon fiber one you're going to miraculously save 50 pounds. Ain't happening.... Maybe couple of pounds at best.

But also consider for that 2-4 pounds you might save, you're likely spending a grand plus for each piece. I don't care how much your need-for-speed is, if you have a budget (yes, even racers have budgets) you are going to use a cost-versus-benefit mindset. "[i]Do I want to spend 2 grand on a set of carbon fiber fenders that might save me 8 pounds, or do I put that 2 grand towards the suspension and engine upgrades (yes, even racers have to prioritize and be practical.... especially since drifting doesn't quite give away multi-million dollar prizes to winners the way some other races with mega financial backing do).

That's why that Camaro (and many cars in competition) has a carbon fiber hood (a large enough and heavy enough item where a switch to carbon fiber does have a real weight benefit) but no one snipping and tearing off steel external panels of a unibody vehicle to glue very expensive carbon fiber panels on.

Big Als Z

Uh...yeah, it has lots of carbon fiber.

The 150 lbs is the rumoed increase that the Z28 will get over the current SS, so I would figure that if you took out teh LSA, thats 150lbs gone.

It is a miracle weight loss material. It help cut nearly 1000lbs off what sounds like a Z28.

Im not saying that the Camaro should go to an all carbon fiber body, but if someone can strip down a car 1000lbs, GM cant cut 10% of that off the current car?
Bull****. Hell, the rear mufflers are 40 lbs in itself. Has anyone heard the new SLP LM stuff for the 5th gen? Its still quiet.

My Red 93Z-28

The 150 lbs. won't be just from the engine, I'd imagine that upgraded drivetrain parts will add to that, as well as other chassis changes along with some cosmetic changes.


sure, if you want a Ferrari interior (meaning exposed welds, no carpet, no sound-deadening material, no creature comforts)

A Carbon Fiber body would jack the cost up pretty good. They stripped 1000 lbs out by removing the complete interior...nobody (with exception to die-hard enthusiasts/racers) would buy that. Look at how many people get mad when HUD and/or NAV get left out of a vehicle.

Big Als Z

Id figure that that we would see some weight loss, but the net gain would be about 150lbs over the SS.


uhhhhhhhh...





Yes, what would I ever do about a Ferrari interior in a Camaro. All that exposted welds, no carpet....shesh! I didnt know that the floor boards looked exaclty like carpet? Or that welds looked like hand stiched leather and carbon fiber?


Holy crap, did you read what I said? I didnt want an all carbon fiber car!
What I said was that if these guys can strip 1/4 of the weight of the car by removing most of the interior...GM cant remove 1/10th of the weight of the car to lighten it?

Im talking about a Z28 model, a race-spec type car. They removed some of the sound suppression and people still bought it. Yes, its louder. But thats teh sacrafice GM must make. To be honest, all the reviews talked about how quiet it is inside the car...so maybe GM should lighten it up on the fluff?

The Camaro team should be working on two things right now
1) cutting 200lbs out of the car
2) adding a better interior for the car.

My Red 93Z-28

I don't remember which model it was, but they were talking about it on top gear, there really wasn't an interior and there were exposed welds in the interior because it was basically a race car. Sure, not all models are like that as you posted above

HAZ-Matt

It was the F430 Scuderia.

guionM

Al.

You ARE aware that those are pictures of a 3,760 pound Ferrari 599 GTB.

Sure, it has plenty of carbon fiber, but for a car that's barely much longer and taller than a 3000 pound Chevrolet Cobalt and a bit shorter and lower than a 3500 pound Mustang GT, I'd think you'd be a bit more careful about sinking your own ship in this discussion.



Things wrong with your position.

1. If GM, a company obsessed with CAFE and weight reduction in order to squeeze more mileage from their vehicles, and the people who work at GM engineering who do this for a living, could squeeze more weight out of a vehicle without effecting the cost structure or public desirability of the vehicle of the vehicle would do it. Any notion otherwise is pretty foolish.

2. Like the "magical" powers of carbon fiber, it seems that you feel that yanking out insulation also provides magical savings of hundres of pounds. How much do you think carpet insulation weighs? How much do you think the insulation in the headliner weighs? Door insulation? Firewall? Pillars? Truth is, if you're lucky, you might (depending on the vehicle) save 50 pounds woithout resorting to bare metal.

Truth is that the Camaro is quiet and silent due more to it's construction and materials than to sound deadening materials you are likely thinking of. Ford has this thing called "Quiet steel" that I'm certain GM also has and uses. It's a sandwiched piece of steel with a coating between them, much like laminated glass. This steel (used in the construction of the body, especially around the passenger compartment of some vehicles) is notably heavier than conventional sheetmetal. Even simple thicker guage steel makes a mountain of difference in passenger cabin quietness.

Want to lose weight. If we're willing to put away the "Magic Pixie Dust" belief, realize that there is no such thing as a magic bullet that saves 10 pounds on a part that weighs 5, there ARE ways to reduce weight significantly.

1. Downsize. If you want to shring the Camaro to the size of a Cobalt, then we'll easily be able to shed hundreds of pounds.

2. Decrese performance. More power means heavier duty (and heavier weight) parts. This goes from drivetrains to suspension components. You aren't gonna get large 3 piston 15" Brembo brakes and not gain substantial weight over single pistion brakes with 12-13" rotors. Also think of the stronger (and heavier) components that are needed to support them.

3. Finally, elminate content. That's the hard part. First, people refuse to do without them. Look how many complaints posted right here on this very site regarding Camaro's lack of a navigation system. The second difficulty is that so many parts are integrated to save money and complexity. That stereo now contains one of the engine computers. That drive-by-wire also is linked in with the ABS, traction control, and even OnStar. The setup for power seats also contains setup for heated seats and passenger sensors for the airbags. Ever lift a modern power seat?

As I have always said, taking weight out is always a matter of what are you prepared to give up. However, an even bigger question is "[i]How much can be given up without the car (or truck) being at a competitive disadvantage. What can be eliminated without the competition using it as a huge club to decimate sales.

The answer is "Pretty much NOTHING".

Until the day we're ready to give up IRS, the live axle Mustang will weigh less.

Untill the day the public gives up all the gizmos and are willing to ride around in echoing noisetraps, insulation and construction that keeps things quiet will remain.

Until the day Carbon fiber costs the same as steel or plastic, and actually creates "negative weight", Carbon fiber's uses will be limited to saving a few pounds on vehicles where the cost of using it can be recouped or it's used for interior decoration.

That's the reality of it.

Big Als Z

Ferrari F40. Only car I can think of that has that. Even the F430 Scud has an Alcantara and carbin fiber lined interior.


I know what it is. And even a car that size is still 200lbs lighter then the Camaro, with a large massive V12, tons of leather and features, a dual clutch gear box, carbon ceramic brakes, and the list goes on...AND ITS STILL TWO HUNDRED POUNDS LIGHTER!
Mind that it does use lots of carbon fiber and leather, and cost 10x more then a Camaro does.

There is no ship sinking. He said that the Camaro would have an interior of a Ferrari. I pointed this Ferrari interior out.
Im not making any comparision of the Camaro to Ferrari. I just showed the man the pictures.

Obsessed with CAFE and weight reduction? Is there another GM that I dont know about? Is this like a "what if" type question, like "What if GM obsessed about CAFE and over weight cars..." because I dont see this
I see a two ton FWD based SRX that despite having nearly 270hp, feels like a 185hp slug?
That the LaX tips the scales at nearly 2 tons, and over 2 with AWD. And its not that big.
That some how totaly missed the idea of putting a hybrid, a true hyrbid, system into a passenger car, and only developing Two-Mode for trucks?
Solstice and Sky, despite being marginally larger then the Miata, carry a 300lbs weight burden?
Camaro, that even with everything accounted for, that they couldnt have shaved 200lbs off for a limited edition run of vehicles that would be sold to die hard enthusiasts?

Sometimes I wonder what the hell is going on inside the halls of GM.


I think you would be amazed. I belive the firewall has a blanket of sound protection that stretches under the car to the cowl, and from fender to fender.
Then some on the other side of the fender, under the dash pannel, under the seating, on top of the fenders, in the trunk. I say that if you removed half of it...could cut 20lbs. Again, Im making a point on a Z28, not the run of the mill cars.

Quiet steel is a product that everyone uses.
Well, then chassis strenght should be up to par, and they can rely on the car's strength to quiet down the Z28, and just let the roar of the car in through the cabin. Hell, Ford put a damn sound tube so that drivers can hear that hack engine buzzing away.


Yes, but thats a time involved process. We needs a fix now.

You are going backwards. Chassis is already designed to handle the power, so its already over engineerd there.
Many automakers have gone to two-piece rotors. Hell, GM itself has gone to two-piece rotors on the CTS-V. I belive at the Monticello race, someone said that it shaved 10lbs per wheel? Maybe more then that. I was blown away by that figure.

Navigation isnt standard, so its an optional weight.
I have lifted one out of my 04 Malibu. Its the same as the power seat that I pulled out of my 87 Camaro.
Ever lift a racing seat? Or a Recaro? Done that too. Guess which one is lighter? Again...for a Z28, a lighter, thinner, more scuplted Recaro would do wonders. Figure 5lbs a seat.

Right now, the Camaro is at risk at being at a huge disadvantage when this monster-stang comes rolling in for 2011.
Camaro might need to figure out how to keep its advantage. Maybe retune its suspension and steering problems that seem to plague it? Might be heavy, but if they can help make it feel lighter on its feet by killing the understeer, it could take the wind out of the Mustang's sails.

Crappy attitude to have if your job is to make the Camaro the best in its class.

Nope..you have to play to your advantages. GM has the power and chassis advantage. They need move foward with a better car. If they dont move foward and keep the car competitive, then GM and Team Camaro have failed. GM cant afford to wait for a 6th gen to make the Camaro competitive again. Enhancements need to be made now.

That is the reality of it.

Z284ever

I know you know it's more than just that Guy. The Camaro has 10% more mass than it's direct competitor - Mustang.


The fact of the matter is that Camaro will be finding itself in a huge strategic disadvantage to the Mustang. Insurmountable really.

2010_5thgen

i think that camaro drift car actually has a carbon fiber shell also. not only is the doors, hood,fenders and bumpers carbon fiber but the entire car is carbon fiber i think. saw it on a web site when i was searching for carbon fiber parts.

Koz2

Lets play devils advocate then, and I'll tilt the tables severely in your favor. Assume that the Ferrari costs 10x more than a Camaro because the drivetrain costs as much as 8 Camaros, and the rest of the car costs as much as 2 Camaros (all it's fancy CF and stuff).

Let the Camaro keep it's drivetrain, and save the addition of another 8x it's value. As an added bonus, assume the Camaro drivetrain weighs 150lbs less than the Ferrari. Then replace the Camaro's body/suspension, etc. with the Ferrari's lighter, and relatively cheap setup.

You've just lost your 200lbs, plus 150 for retaining the powertrain. So you're now 350lbs lighter. (I have no idea how much the powertrains actually weigh)

...

You've also doubled the price of the car.

...

Would you buy this new 75-80k Camaro over a base SS? How about a Z06? It is a whopping 350lbs lighter now.

Keep in mind that a whole Ferrari minus powertrain probably retails for a lot more than 20% msrp.


The issue isn't whether or not GM can make a light car, it's "will people pay extra/sacrifice features for a light car". I won't.