An observation re: Camaro
#31
for the low price of...............? so you can lease a car, but you can lease the battery? so if you dont pay your lease payment, their going to reposes your batteries?! haha. ahhh this just gets better and better.
#32
this is a phase. the only good battery driven car out there that i have seen thus far is the Tesla roadster. as far as the volt and those cars, yeah they seem cool. but their not very practical at all. no one understands what happens when the battery's break or wear down. its not as simple or cheap to replace a entire set of car batteries like its a flash light. its going to have a "warranty" for a certain amount of time. then what? the warranties up and your paying out the *** for a new battery that cost you close to 10grand after all the labor and materials cost. these cars are a joke right now. very impractical and uselss after they would break down. no longer will you be able to just go in your garage and work on your car if you have a problem. youll have to call the dealer(becasue local mechanics sure dont know jack about battery oppereated cars) just to diagnose the problem and then you have to pay them to fix it. whatever it may be. there are so many things that can go wrong and WILL go wrong with these cars. just think, we are just now getting to a point in vehicle manufacturing where we dont have alot of "kinks" to work out. and gas powered motors have been around for decades! battery driven cars are a joke. im sorry thats the way i feel and im not buying into the "electric/hybrid" era. it will pass.
IMO, electric cars are DEFINITELY coming, and they'll be here to stay until the next big thing comes (I'm thinking we'll just figure out how to teleport and won't need cars at all ). By todays standards, gas engines were a joke when they first came out too.
#33
theres no way that the car pays its self off in 4 years. maybe you get the loan payed off in 4 years but when do you actually start to get to the "good investment" part of the c ar. you spent all the 40k paying it off, now when do you start to make your money back on the gas savings?
compare this car to a new silverado which gets the best gas mileage of all the trucks. how much willa base truck cost? 20grand,now with all the discount. maybe thats a little high for a base with incentives. but still its 20 grand cheaper than the volt. now with this truck you have so much more capability than with the volt becasue of the towing/hauling aspect. seating 3-6 people depending if its ext. cab or not. compared to the volts 5 seats and very small trunk. where as the silverado has a very large bed. now with gas savings you are saving right away because you dont have as much $ into the silverado as you do the volt. and granted the volt gets 40miles with 0 gas, the silverado is getting 18-20mpg. and the silverado cost your home electric bill 0 dollars to "charge" at night. by the time the volt catches up to the silverado in"getting its moneys worth", the volt is going to need those batteries replaced. no way is there a 4 year payoff in the volt. you may pay the loan off in 4 years but you will not get your investment out of it in gas in 4 years.
compare this car to a new silverado which gets the best gas mileage of all the trucks. how much willa base truck cost? 20grand,now with all the discount. maybe thats a little high for a base with incentives. but still its 20 grand cheaper than the volt. now with this truck you have so much more capability than with the volt becasue of the towing/hauling aspect. seating 3-6 people depending if its ext. cab or not. compared to the volts 5 seats and very small trunk. where as the silverado has a very large bed. now with gas savings you are saving right away because you dont have as much $ into the silverado as you do the volt. and granted the volt gets 40miles with 0 gas, the silverado is getting 18-20mpg. and the silverado cost your home electric bill 0 dollars to "charge" at night. by the time the volt catches up to the silverado in"getting its moneys worth", the volt is going to need those batteries replaced. no way is there a 4 year payoff in the volt. you may pay the loan off in 4 years but you will not get your investment out of it in gas in 4 years.
From what I've read, averaging things out, Prius pays off in about 4 years. Volt is an unknown right now and will probably vary considerably depending on how the owner uses one.
I agree totally that buying a Volt won't really be about cost savings. I think people who buy them will look at it as investing in new technologies.
Until we find out exactly how much the sticker price on the Volt is and how much it costs to charge one, there is simply no way to figure out when and if you will save money with the Volt. I would, however, wager it will likely be before the battery pack is worn out if gas returns to $4.00 a gallon. If it stays at $2.00? Maybe not.
#34
^ I'm with Eric
Most people aren't going to buy the Volt to save money. They're going to buy it because they like the idea of the car, like to be green, and like how it looks. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents when you buy a car. If it did, we'd all be driving Aveos and base model pickups.
I for one would love to have a Volt. I think they look good, and it would be cool to drive on electric power. For the money I'd buy something more performance oriented, but I'd guess >80% of the public don't hold that kind of performance as paramount as we do; and that's who's going to buy them
Most people aren't going to buy the Volt to save money. They're going to buy it because they like the idea of the car, like to be green, and like how it looks. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents when you buy a car. If it did, we'd all be driving Aveos and base model pickups.
I for one would love to have a Volt. I think they look good, and it would be cool to drive on electric power. For the money I'd buy something more performance oriented, but I'd guess >80% of the public don't hold that kind of performance as paramount as we do; and that's who's going to buy them
#35
The Cruze will give GM a decent smaller car like every other manufacturer already has. There won't be Cobalts to laugh at anymore....but that's about it. I'm sure it will be a great car, but as an image leader for GM? I don't think so.
#36
I agree with you 100%! The Volt will not make a profit and I for one am not and will never be interested in ANY kind of electric car. The thing that really gets me is that we have tons of oil, to be precise, we have the worlds largest oil reserve, 3 times what the whole entire middle east has! If we started utilizing this oil now, we would have oil LONG after all of us here are gone, our children our gone, and their children our gone!
Do you know the biggest suppliers of oil to the US is Canada, Mexico, Liberia, and Venzuela... not a group of Arab countries?
The issue with oil is that there is no 3 countries alone (let alone a single country) that can supply us with all the oil we need. We use so much oil that it threatens our national security. Also, the more oil we buy from outside the country, the more money we send outside the country which creates a trade deficit (more money going out than coming in). The thing we MUST do is drop oil consumption to the point where we can function with just the oil available to us from friendly countries, as well as balence out our trade.
It is absolutely absurd that the government is essentially forcing GM to biuld electric cars, hydrids and the like, and then in turn they are being crammed down our throats, the consumers! Just think how far the gasoline engine has come in the past 10 years or so. You could not even imagine the type of performance along with the incredible fuel economy they get years ago, and it will only keep getting better. The government should stay out of what GM does and basically every other company that makes products and services in this country, because everytime it gets involved it only hurts the products/services and the consumer is the one that ultimately in the end suffers.
Anyone going to someone else for money needs to be prepared for conditions attached. It happens with banks, it happens with loans to friends (you wouldn't lend an alcholoic deadbeat friend money for more drinks), and it should be the case with loans from governments.
Sorry for being so political, don't like mixing politics with a passion such as cars on a site like this, but unfortunately the reason that the Volt even exists today is the sole responsibility of the liberals and their environmentalist buddies, a.k.a. your friendly tree huggers!
GM... and GM ALONE... decided to win brownie points like Toyota did by producing the Volt. Do a Google or Yahoo search, and you will find out that Bob Lutz pushed the thing almost singlehandedly.
The idea behind the Volt is great: Create a rolling sellable advertisement that would be great for GM's image, just like Toyota did with the Prius. Even Honda just got into the act this year.
But the difference between both Honda and Toyota is that they have litterally BILLIONS in the bank, and are constantly earning profits. They can afford to produce a money loser that will give them great press with enviroimentalists and greenies. In Toyota's case, it hides the terrible mileage of some of their trucks and V6 cars next to US brands.
But GM is hemmoraging money like a guy with a severed limb. The absolute last thing GM needs is something that will make them bleed even more.... especially when they need a transfusion from a source of last resort because no one else will give them anything because they see it as a hopeless proposition.
I feel the Volt is the last thing GM needs. But GM has painted themselves in a corner on this because they themselves have heavily hyped it.
While Ford & Chrysler are busy throwing every resource they have to survive, GM is throwing every resource it has into the Volt.
Again, I appriciate the passion, I myself am also not interested in any electric cars yet (they simply are not cost efficient, and I drive long distances). But we do have to decrease (greatly) the oil we consume. There's plenty of cost effective options available today (diesel, downsizing, even a fuel tax) that still lets the marketplace work.
Last edited by guionM; 02-11-2009 at 12:48 PM.
#37
Believe it or not, IC engines get replaced when they get old and tired too; it's not like batteries will be more 'disposable' to owners of battery cars than engiens are to owners of IC cars. GM isn't working on making a large Duracell or Energizer here!
IMO, electric cars are DEFINITELY coming, and they'll be here to stay until the next big thing comes (I'm thinking we'll just figure out how to teleport and won't need cars at all ). By todays standards, gas engines were a joke when they first came out too.
IMO, electric cars are DEFINITELY coming, and they'll be here to stay until the next big thing comes (I'm thinking we'll just figure out how to teleport and won't need cars at all ). By todays standards, gas engines were a joke when they first came out too.
#38
^ I'm with Eric
Most people aren't going to buy the Volt to save money. They're going to buy it because they like the idea of the car, like to be green, and like how it looks. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents when you buy a car. If it did, we'd all be driving Aveos and base model pickups.
I for one would love to have a Volt. I think they look good, and it would be cool to drive on electric power. For the money I'd buy something more performance oriented, but I'd guess >80% of the public don't hold that kind of performance as paramount as we do; and that's who's going to buy them
Most people aren't going to buy the Volt to save money. They're going to buy it because they like the idea of the car, like to be green, and like how it looks. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents when you buy a car. If it did, we'd all be driving Aveos and base model pickups.
I for one would love to have a Volt. I think they look good, and it would be cool to drive on electric power. For the money I'd buy something more performance oriented, but I'd guess >80% of the public don't hold that kind of performance as paramount as we do; and that's who's going to buy them
#39
In a world without Detroit the rest of the auto industry is going to be fairly conservative with their products so that they don't end up out of business themselves. If you like cookie-cutter design and economy cars, that may not be an issue. But if you like individualistic styling and freedom of choice, your options would be fairly limited in that scenario, and probably out of the price range for most consumers.
People do not buy hybrid and electric cars to save (money) on gas. Typically it costs more to own, operate and maintain a hybrid or electric car in today's world. They purchase them because they believe it helps the environment. Whether or not that they actually help the environment is open to debate; however, if saving money were the only issue, they'd buy something else.
#40
people act like filling bankruptcy is a new thing. chrysler has done it 3 times and their still around.
yes i know it wouldnt be good if gm were to go under but its impossible for them to. maybe not impossible, but there will not be a time,in our life time, where there is no GM.
actually some of those cars you speak of being made over sees, more of them are probably made here than our american cars are. theres alot of toyota made here. and theres alot of gm made in canada and mexico. believe me im all about buying american, but where do you cross the line when calling a car "american made" or an "american car" when its not even made here?
yes i know it wouldnt be good if gm were to go under but its impossible for them to. maybe not impossible, but there will not be a time,in our life time, where there is no GM.
actually some of those cars you speak of being made over sees, more of them are probably made here than our american cars are. theres alot of toyota made here. and theres alot of gm made in canada and mexico. believe me im all about buying american, but where do you cross the line when calling a car "american made" or an "american car" when its not even made here?
Last edited by 2010_5thgen; 02-11-2009 at 01:39 PM.
#41
Would you rather Washington let the auto industry fail and then we'd have to buy all of our cars from overseas? I guarrantee you that a future without GM, Ford and Chrysler is not what any of us want.
In a world without Detroit the rest of the auto industry is going to be fairly conservative with their products so that they don't end up out of business themselves. If you like cookie-cutter design and economy cars, that may not be an issue. But if you like individualistic styling and freedom of choice, your options would be fairly limited in that scenario, and probably out of the price range for most consumers.
People do not buy hybrid and electric cars to save (money) on gas. Typically it costs more to own, operate and maintain a hybrid or electric car in today's world. They purchase them because they believe it helps the environment. Whether or not that they actually help the environment is open to debate; however, if saving money were the only issue, they'd buy something else.
In a world without Detroit the rest of the auto industry is going to be fairly conservative with their products so that they don't end up out of business themselves. If you like cookie-cutter design and economy cars, that may not be an issue. But if you like individualistic styling and freedom of choice, your options would be fairly limited in that scenario, and probably out of the price range for most consumers.
People do not buy hybrid and electric cars to save (money) on gas. Typically it costs more to own, operate and maintain a hybrid or electric car in today's world. They purchase them because they believe it helps the environment. Whether or not that they actually help the environment is open to debate; however, if saving money were the only issue, they'd buy something else.
#42
I agree with you 100%. I simply mistook what you were saying. You said "save gas", which I took to mean "save money" not "cut down on fuel consumption and minimize my carbon footprint on society".
#43
It's ironic that the car that GM would not have made (and in most circles wishes it hadn't) is not only going to outsell their darling (the Volt) by whopping margins, but is going to clear a comparative massive amount of money on each Camaro made (even base V6 Camaros have a thin profit margin built in, let alone loaded 2SS).
If there is a lesson to be learned it is that the EV1 shouldnt have been over promissed to the point its massive failure seemed like a conspiricy. Hind sight is 2020 but...
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 02-11-2009 at 07:23 PM.
#44
It's ironic that the car that GM would not have made (and in most circles wishes it hadn't) is not only going to outsell their darling (the Volt) by whopping margins, but is going to clear a comparative massive amount of money on each Camaro made (even base V6 Camaros have a thin profit margin built in, let alone loaded 2SS).
If there is a lesson to be learned it is that the EV1 shouldnt have been over promissed to the point its massive failure seemed like a conspiricy. Hind sight is 2020 but...
and before you make ANOTHER insulting assumtion that I dont do my own reasearch, choose not to agree with the news channels you agree with and therefore get my news from news channels you refer to as not real news.
here is the letter from John Sarbanes DEMOCRATIC Member of Congress when I sent the petition.
Originally Posted by John Sarbanes Democratic Member of Congress
November 25, 2008
Dear :
Thank you for contacting me about possible government loans or assistance to the U.S. auto manufacturing industry. I appreciate hearing from you and welcome the opportunity to respond.
First and foremost, I believe that any investment of taxpayer dollars in such an enterprise must be contingent upon strict accountability on the part of the auto industry to ensure that their future business models and balance sheets are in working order. On November 19, 2008, the House Committee on Financial Services held a hearing entitled "Stabilizing the Financial Condition of the American Automobile Industry". As a result of the testimony presented by the CEOs of these companies, and as a condition of any future assistance that would be offered by the government, the auto companies have been asked to present a detailed and realistic plan for the future success of their industry to the Congress and the Administration by December 2nd.
While I will withhold judgment until I see the specifics of any plan, I do believe that the development of new battery technology and the production of the next generation of fuel efficient vehicles here in the United States, if done correctly, could save countless American jobs. It could also help us achieve several U.S. policy goals as they pertain to our national security, environment, and economic strength. Just as growth in information technology was the force behind economic prosperity in the 1990's, the development of green technology and green jobs will spur tremendous growth and offer long-term relief to the American economy.
Again, I appreciate hearing from you. I will be sure to keep your views in mind as Congress continues to consider possible measures related to the U.S. automakers. Please do not hesitate to contact me about other issues of concern to you in the future.
Sincerely, John Sarbanes Member of Congress
Dear :
Thank you for contacting me about possible government loans or assistance to the U.S. auto manufacturing industry. I appreciate hearing from you and welcome the opportunity to respond.
First and foremost, I believe that any investment of taxpayer dollars in such an enterprise must be contingent upon strict accountability on the part of the auto industry to ensure that their future business models and balance sheets are in working order. On November 19, 2008, the House Committee on Financial Services held a hearing entitled "Stabilizing the Financial Condition of the American Automobile Industry". As a result of the testimony presented by the CEOs of these companies, and as a condition of any future assistance that would be offered by the government, the auto companies have been asked to present a detailed and realistic plan for the future success of their industry to the Congress and the Administration by December 2nd.
While I will withhold judgment until I see the specifics of any plan, I do believe that the development of new battery technology and the production of the next generation of fuel efficient vehicles here in the United States, if done correctly, could save countless American jobs. It could also help us achieve several U.S. policy goals as they pertain to our national security, environment, and economic strength. Just as growth in information technology was the force behind economic prosperity in the 1990's, the development of green technology and green jobs will spur tremendous growth and offer long-term relief to the American economy.
Again, I appreciate hearing from you. I will be sure to keep your views in mind as Congress continues to consider possible measures related to the U.S. automakers. Please do not hesitate to contact me about other issues of concern to you in the future.
Sincerely, John Sarbanes Member of Congress
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 02-11-2009 at 07:48 PM.
#45
If you haven't noticed the not-so-gentle push from all levels of gov't regarding hybrids and renewable energy technology, you've practically been in a coma.
This thread may be getting way off topic, so to bring it back around I will say that if nothing else the Volt will be valuable to GM to keep the federal assistance rolling in. It will also put them to a point where (God forbid) if cars like Camaro are either legislated off the map or done so by natural forces (such as the price of oil) they will have the experience needed to make the transition to hyper-milage vehicles.