ChrisFrez

I think explains the Z/28 vs. Z28 from Scott "The Fbodfather" Settlemire's post on the "Thoughts on the 2014 Camaro and Z/28 at the New York Auto Show". Here is the snippet on the Z/28 and Z28:

IZ28

Blah.

The truth is that the "slash" went away in 70 not 77 and the IROC-Z(28) never really replaced the Z28 because it WAS a Z28. The Z28 was only fully "replaced" by a model and considered "2nd place" to the SS in the later 4th Gen. (which was also technically, a Z28) The Z28 was the all-around performance model for 85% or more of the car's run. It didn't become lesser without the /, it became more livable to drive, but often had too many low performance engine options. The high end optioned ones always reflected the times and situation for what the top performance model could be, it's just that the 1st Gen was more of a racer/1LE type of car. It was also never super expensive/exclusive like the new one. That was the original ZL1.

2010_5thgen

my favorite high performance z28 was the late 70's...... lots of power and performance there!

Fbodfather

I posted:

"........Everyone has their opinion and 90 percent have an opinion that THEY are correct in their beliefs and that those with a different opinion are completely wrong and perhaps motivated by the Devil himself%u2026%u2026%u2026%u2026%u2026%u2026.

...and you are the proof that I'm right.

I don't know that you and I have ever agreed on anything.

That's unfortunate.

The Z/28 is back. You may not like HOW it came back, but make no mistake - NO ONE will soon forget THIS Z/28.


By the way - what do you do for a living?

IZ28

No, I don't really think you are wrongly motivated, at least I hope not, but you have made mishaps before! Just for example, when you said that the GTO would never make it here or how the SS belonged above the Z28. (for years and years I might add) What actually happened? The GTO came here and Z28 is the top Camaro.....even over the ZL1. Oh, and I like the new Z28 very much lol, I have never stated otherwise. It'd be fantastic to have one, (or even a ZL1) but the price is very high. (I understand why, not saying it isn't justified) It's true that we've disagreed more than we have agreed over the years. But I've seen you argue with many other stewards of the brand that didn't want to accept your opinions for certain reasons. People had to fight for the right things to be done for the car literally against you sometimes, especially concerning the "Z/28." Thankfully, the car is in good hands these days so there really isn't much to argue anymore. This Camaro Team seems to "get it." We agree about what the best car on the planet is at least.

I just like to keep it real about the cars Scott, no matter who it is with. It's really not personal, I have nothing against you, just some of your views. We're passionate about the same car. I would have liked to talk to you at NYIAS 06 and asked for you, but to no avail. I also appreciated your invite to the secret reveal at Detroit, which I couldn't make. Had it been NY, you can bet your personal Camaro(s) that I would have been there, instead I watched live. But even being a former brand manager doesn't give you or anyone else the right to slightly change what actually is, was, or what should be. Once you told me that fan criticism hurts instead of helping. Some of us have lived and breathed these cars since being toddlers, and it's always gonna be us, the enthusiasts, who dictate what the car needs to be to succeed. I think the push of enthusiasts like myself and many others over the years have helped shape the direction of these fantastic cars.....especially the Z28.

What do I do? Preserve Camaro history whenever possible, without revisions.

Fbodfather

All that's fine -- IF you are the only one whose opinion counts.

Unfortunately that is not the case. Everyone that's a Camaro enthusiast feels their opinion counts. (whether right or wrong...)

Revisionist? Well - I have one advantage that most don't - I get to see a lot of historic documents that give insight........

In another post on this site, you talk about the "/" disappearing. Yet I have found tons of documents from the lowliest engineer to the top designers - and they continued to use the "/" long after the "/" disappeared from the car. Intent? Perhaps. I remember distinctly several discussions with designers and engineers (years later) about the early 2nd gens - and the intent of the various nameplates RS versus SS versus RS/SS or SS/RS -- and Z28 versus Z/28 versus Z28 versus etcetcetc......and I suspect you'd get great amusement if only you could sit in meetings where people hash this stuff out........each person feeling that they're right......and there is a reason why the "Z" is bigger than the "2" and the "8" on the early 2nd gen cars.

SS as tops? In the 4th gen? If we hadn't put the Z28 moniker on the V8 in the first place -- and rather, used the SS as the moniker for the early 4th gen V8 - then yes, you'd be correct. It's very easy to armchair quarterback it by looking backwards. Let's go to 1989 and plan the 1993 models - knowing that the voice of the customer asked for a few things:

>Make the V6 look like the V8. (...and sales records proved it could increase sales)

>utilize the Z28 nameplate - meaning the V8 Camaro. (....which we did - knowing that there was only one V8 engine available.......) 275hp was a lot of horsepower in the early 90s.

............but THEN we had an opportunity to have SLP take the Z28 one step further......

tell me how you'd have addressed that. Make sure you include tooling costs (to GM) -- communications to the customer and the dealer.......how you'd handle customer confusion...etc etc etc.

(oh..and for the record? SLP had nameplates and accessories and wearables with Z28/SS -- we insisted that they cease and desist because there never was a Z28/SS to begin with -- )

Nothing is quite as simple as it seems. Further - a whole team of people can't be all wrong.

So - you will always see it as one way - I will see it perhaps another - and even more people will say we're both wrong...........that's the nature of 'the beast' so to speak........the Camaro is a passionate brand - and it has passionate enthusiasts and NONE of them can agree on anything 100 percent of the time.................

The reality remains this: Some people think the SS is "top dog" -- others see the "Z/28" or "Z28" as top dog. Still others see it as a ZL1. Who's right?

(..ask the question and again I state: 'watch the fur fly'...)

As to the GTO - I'm not recalling the conversation. I DO know that the GMX-280 (which we worked on in early 1997 was 'killed' because it did not make a good replacement for the Camaro. I made a comment in several meetings that it would make a good Monte Carlo, perhaps -but not a Camaro. Well.....it eventually became the GTO.

Who exactly are these 'stewards' that you refer to? And - again, we'll argue 'til the cows come home as to what the intents of the 1967 SS versus the 1967 Z/28 were......what IS true is that neither you nor I were in those meetings - so one has to decipher from notes as to what the intent was.

Lastly - I find myself in many positions where I can't quite talk about the future. The reality is that the Camaro and Firebird were dropped from the portfolio - period. Behind the scenes, a few worked and worked and worked to bring the Camaro back. We got caught more than once and were called on the carpet..........but it was the right thing to do (to continue to work behind the scenes.....)

Now - if I'd have told you in 2002 -- that we'd be offering you a Camaro with 580 horsepower in 10 years - I think you'd have had me put in a rubber room. And if Al Oppenheiser, our chief engineer, had told ME the same thing in 2002 - I'd have laughed him off.

What IS true - lots of stuff happens in the background. Circumstances change.

And yes - we were finally able to give the 'original' Z/28 enthusiasts what they really wanted to see happen: Top Dog. (there are some first gen ZL1 owners that aren't happy with the naming - and there are some SS owners that aren't happy with the naming -- and I'm sure there are those in that camp that are busting my chops right now - luckily I have broad shoulders.......)

This newest Z/28 is the meanest thing to come out of General Motors. (that's a direct quote from someone at Nurburgring last week while they were testing the Z/28)

IZ28

Yes, I remember the whole early Z28/SS naming thing. Honestly, to avoid that whole designation debate, I think I would have just called it an SLP Z28 and not thrown a name on the car that didn't really belong. Or just give it some SLP emblems and not make that an "official" name. I'm more of a purist though. Coulda always done Type LT lol! As far as the slash thing, like I said some people might have still liked it better, but it didn't happen. If you tell someone with a 70-74 Camaro that there is a slash on their car they'll think that you're really from a Red Planet. The new emblem also doesn't have the white 28.

About a decade ago there were many more enthusiasts besides myself that were stewards/custodians of the brand (not naming people) that fought for the return of the Camaro and it's interests in multiple different ways. Many saw the need for change and used available outlets to get some things across. Such as the whole Z28 vs. SS thing, the need to get away from the 4th Gen design direction, better quality, and more passion put into the product. Things such as care, interest, and the mishandling of this car were things that we all tried to get across to GM. I'd say the only things you were defensive about then was the 4th Gens and SS over Z28, which caused many a 10 page topic. But, I'm not trying to persecute over things we all argued about 10 years ago, just points of info as to where we've been. This board alone was very much a different place back then, and it's hard to believe it was that long ago. But look at how far things have come since! Pretty much everything was addressed and saw to with this new car.

Original ZL1 owners have a drag car. It was kind of like a super SS. The Z28 was a do-everything-good kind of car with a focus on the dynamics of racing such as handling, braking, balance, etc. The Z28 basically always stayed that through every Gen. To get upset about the new Z28 being the absolute top car is again wrong on certain fronts. I think you'd agree that the ZL1 is STILL the better drag car regardless. The Z28 will do all good with a focus on handling and being good on more than just a drag track. Nothings changed. Enough said.

I find that "Z28 being the meanest thing to ever come out of GM" comment interesting with cars like Z06s and ZR1s around. The type of things being achieved with this car on a less than ideal chassis are astounding.

ChrisFrez

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1967 Z28/RS

Does anybody know how many 1967 Camaro Z28/RS were produced? (1967 Camaro Z28 combined with the Rally Sport package)

jg95z28

According to the Camaro Research Group, there were 220,906 Camaro coupes and convertibles in 1967, of those 64,842 had the Rally Sport option (RPO-Z22). There were only 602 Z/28s that year. I've never seen a confirmed number of Z28/RS combined, however if you go with percentages, seeing that 29.4% off all Camaros had the RS option, one might speculate that up to 177 Z/28s also got the RS package. To date less than 200 1967 Z/28s have been found. Its hard to say exactly since documentation has not been uncovered to verify the final combined number.

Are they rare? Yes, but then so is any 1967 Z/28.

Silver2009