TrickStang37

+1

I agree completely. I use to sell cars a while back, and I can honestly say that 98%+ of car buyers don't know ANYTHING about horsepower, what it means, or even compares them. They are more WAY WAY more likely to base a buying decision on a car that needs "premium fuel" vs. "regular" than anything else when it comes to engine performance... and this was BEFORE oil prices skyrocketing.

99SilverSS

Actually the Camaro at it's curb weight with driver weights being equal would only need to have about 355hp or 40 more than the Mustang to equal the power to weight ratio and even up the 400lb difference.

Curb weight matters but in the realm of a 1/4 mile pure acceleration contest it doesn't matter nearly as much as many think it will. Traction and gearing are an X factor for now.

So its likely that in 2010 the Camaro SS vs Mustang GT will have about as much drama as the 2002 Camaro SS vs. Mustang GT runs did.

Condor GT500's aside as they have a better power to weight ratio than any N/A 2010 Camaro.

95firehawk

They were the only car in that market for the past eight years. I don't see where you're point is. At least not from that angle.

Sure, if you're buying an Accord or a Camry. It's pretty absurd to think that a person in the market for a sports car isn't going to look at hp numbers. I have more than a few friends who were/are salesmen and there outlook on this is a little different.

Zigroid

new G8 GTs are outpacing mustangs. they are 4000 lbs (heavier than the GTO) and have 360 hp (less than the GTO). just saw one with a computer tune alone run 13.0 @ 106. several have run mid 13s @ 102-104 completely stock. Im pretty sure a camaro with ~200 lbs less weight and 60 more hp will CRUSH this 2010 mustang. not to mention those LS3s respond amazing to simple mods. ford needs that rumored 400 hp mod motor to have a chance in the acceleration department.

8Banger

They have owned the market for 8 years. I wonder why. I agree that the
public isn't impressed by excess HP, but this is an enthusiast site. Of course
it is important up here. More HP is never a bad thing.

guionM

I think the point you missed is that Camaro was dead for 8 years, while Mustang was not.

If you need that point driven home even more, consider that pretty much from 1999 on till GM pulled the plug after the 2002 model year, Mustang was outselling Camaro (and Firebird.... COMBINED) by 2 to 1.

The point couldn't be made better if it hit you in the head with a sledgehammer.


Then your salesmen must be in the unemployment line by now unless they live in a very weird part of the market.

There were 35,000 Camaros sold in 2002. There were roughly 5,000 Chevrolet dealers that year. There were about 150,000 Mustangs sold that year. There were roughly 4,000 Ford dealers.

Do the math.

Based on only Mustang & Camaro, which salesmen made sales and therefore made money?

Hint: one dealer averaged 30 sold cars per year, the other sold 7.


Since you brought up a nonstock G8, here's a nonstock Mustang GT running 12.6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12kdJ...eature=related

Here's one without cats that did 12.7: http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustan...lip-15243.html

The point is we're talking stock here. You add a computer tune, Mustang adds underdrive pulleys. You add an exhaust, Mustang adds exhaust. Ford has a mother of a catalouge with nothing but Mustang parts, so I wouldn't announce too smugly about how LS3s respond to mods. So do cammers.

That said, and going back to drive-off-the-showroom-floor stock, Mustang GTs typically do mid 13's and so do G8s. Mustang GTs weigh in around 3500 pounds, G8 GTs weigh in around 4000. G8 GTs have 360 horsepower, Mustang GTs have only 300.

Point still stands.



Unless that's the only thing you can talk about.... again, as the 4th gen Camaro proved.

I love more horsepower as much as the next fellow. But those that think horsepower is the answer to everything, or that the car with the most horsepower wins.... lets just say it's good for GM and any other car company that they are restricted to typing on the internet and not working for them.

Zigroid

you just reinforced what I said. that mustang also had a whole lot more mods than the G8 GT I posted
the biggest difference being the G8 GT had stock tires and the mustang had drag radials. there are a few tenths there. the mph difference was a hair over 1 mph too.
the G8 GT has 60 more hp and 500 more lbs yet they run very similar times as the mustang GT. the camaro will have ~120 more hp (107 more than the current '10 model) and weigh ~300 lbs more. I am sorry but I fail to see how the camaro and this current mustang will be anywhere near close to eachother. If I were a betting man I would look to what 03/04 cobras run stock as a guide to what camaro SSs should run. they are close in weight, close in hp, close in gearing.

TrickStang37

the vast majority of the G8 GT owners that have posted their stock times have ran in the ~13.8 range @ 100 - 102.
BTW, The Camaro is slated to weigh 80 - 150 lbs less than the G8.

TrickStang37

You cant really compare the 03/04 Cobra to the new camaro. The only thing that will be comparble is the horsepower. The Cobra has MUCH better gearing, with those SUV size wheel/tire package on the camaro killing it, along with the portly pig of a cobra being 200 - 250 lbs lighter.

ZZtop

Actually, the point does not stand. You yourself just said that the G8 GT runs with the current Mustang GT.

That seams to make perfect sense:

Mustang GT: 11.67 lbs/hp
Pontiac G8 GT: 11.11 lbs/hp

Now if we look at the 2010 models:

Mustang GT: 11.22 lbs/hp (est. weight of 3533 and 315hp)
Camaro SS: 9.15 lbs/hp (weight of 3860 from GM and 422hp)

And since it was brought up:
Terminator: 9.36 lbs/hp to 8.59 lbs/hp (weight 3650 and 390hp, but really more like 425hp)

Now I agree the 3.73 gears in the Mustang will help, but they CERTAINLY will not be anywhere near enough. We have to look no further than the Bullitt to see what a 3.73 geared 315hp S-197 Mustang runs. Answer: about a tenth or two better than a 300hp, 3.55 geared Stang. In same mag tests the two have run nearly identical times and I recall one test where the Bullitt was slower.

IF the Camaro gets traction there is NO DOUBT it will DESTROY the 2010 Mustang GT.

Now, lets take a sneak preview of the 2011 GT:

Mustang GT: 9.125 lbs/hp (assuming 3650 and 400hp)
Camaro SS: 9.15 lbs/hp

Now that is going to be a battle!!!! Lets hope Ford gives the Mustang some rear tires wider than 245 and actually puts this drivetrain in the GT for a competitive price and not some high dollar special edition Mustang. A 2011 Stang GT costing $31k with 400hp, a 6-speed transmission, and weighing only #3600 or so would be a blast! That is the kind of competition we ALL need.

*edit* Something I was just looking at for fun. A light weight LS1 F-body with a lid and exhaust (almost a given on any enthusiasts F-body at this point) would run right with both of the new guys in 2011.

1998-2002 F-body: 9.05 lbs/hp (assuming 3350 and 370hp or about 315 to 320 rwhp)

Now you guys with t-tops, leather, etc. will need to go on a diet or make sure you have some longtubes, haha.

Zigroid

http://wilsonniblett.wordpress.com/2...press-release/
http://www.supercarsite.net/ford/svt...bra-coupe/2003
camaro has very similar gearing, slightly more weight, and more than likely more power. they will be close.

your weights are off too.

my point still stands. it has 60 more hp than the G8 GT and it weighs less. there wont be a comparison between the '10 mustang and '10 camaro.

ZZtop

Ehh, I would be careful here. Over 200 pounds is not "slightly" more weight in most peoples mind. I would be very careful saying the Camaro will have more power than the Termy. Those cars were way underrated and made much closer to 425hp than the advertised 390hp. Unless something crazy happens between now and Camaro's release, the 03/04 Cobra is going to be the faster car.

Don't feel too bad though, it was based on a chassis from the 1970's and cost $34k in 2003. Over $3k more than the brand new Camaro SS in 2010.

That is a fact!

Z284ever

The bottom line here is that Ford feels that it can compete with the Camaro, based on Mustang's traditional sales success, current price advantage, and cosmetic freshening - even while holding back it's improved powertrains.

I'd say that Ford has traditionally shown great skill in how they work this niche, and perhaps shouldn't be dismissed casually.

super83Z

What an annoying statement, especially from someone that is considered "in the know". You know as well as I do that GM was TRYING to kill the car back then. They didn't want to sell alot of them.

8Banger

2 to 1? That's not bad at all considering GM did nothing to sell the car, they were rattle traps and basically GM just flat out killed it. Imagine if they put some positive effort towards the sales. HP is not the end all of course.
Any half brain numb skull knows that. There is something to be said for the guy that asks how much hp in that thing? 400+ sure sounds better than
300+.