Good god guys get a grip!!!!
07-22-2008, 03:35 PM
#47
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
I have fond memories concerning the back seat of a certain Chevelle from my younger days, and it performed the specific function it was tasked with at the time, very, very well... 
The PONY CAR I owned at the time (a Challenger) was deemed unsuitable for the purpose.
The PONY CAR I owned at the time (a Challenger) was deemed unsuitable for the purpose.
Last edited by PacerX; 07-22-2008 at 03:39 PM.
07-22-2008, 06:14 PM
#50
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Commerce, mi, USA
Posts: 2,139
The car is what it is. Just to get it meant Zeta and that meant a higher curb weight. Chevy has blended the Camaro and Chevelle/Monte Carlo in this car, probably not totally by choice. But it's full on content and I think that for sales it will help the car in the long run. For us racing enthusiasts our compromises have been a bit more focused.
The weight is higher than any of us wanted but it can be managed. It's probably never going to handle like the C6 and I don't think Vette owners will need to worry about Camaros taking them out at street lights. But lets not turn our nose up on the 6M LS3 I have no doubt the car will move and unless you have a Vette or GT500 watch out. It's not soo heavy that it won't run some serious numbers.
In my racing days at the strip we used a rule of thumb, 100lb's of weight loss or a 10hp increase is worth a tenth in the 1/4. So the LS3 certainly has enough power over the LS1 to pull this heavier car to a faster ET.
Look no further than MB and the AMG cars to show that even with curb weights well over 2 tons for the 2 seat SL can move if the power is there.
Carving corners may not be so easy. The weight is hard to hide there. This car will probably perform better at road courses than parking lots. The SS does carry some serious brakes.
Interior is not bad IMO. If you hate the style then that's is. But the look and the options, colors and materials do improve it. The seats look very nice and the LED piping and probable HUD help.
I can't think of any car available today or in the past that was 100% perfect to me. I had some complaints about the 4th gens Camaros and I bought 3 of them. Does this car have more positives than negatives and if so is it worth your heard earned money... For me I think it does.
The weight is higher than any of us wanted but it can be managed. It's probably never going to handle like the C6 and I don't think Vette owners will need to worry about Camaros taking them out at street lights. But lets not turn our nose up on the 6M LS3 I have no doubt the car will move and unless you have a Vette or GT500 watch out. It's not soo heavy that it won't run some serious numbers.
In my racing days at the strip we used a rule of thumb, 100lb's of weight loss or a 10hp increase is worth a tenth in the 1/4. So the LS3 certainly has enough power over the LS1 to pull this heavier car to a faster ET.
Look no further than MB and the AMG cars to show that even with curb weights well over 2 tons for the 2 seat SL can move if the power is there.
Carving corners may not be so easy. The weight is hard to hide there. This car will probably perform better at road courses than parking lots. The SS does carry some serious brakes.
Interior is not bad IMO. If you hate the style then that's is. But the look and the options, colors and materials do improve it. The seats look very nice and the LED piping and probable HUD help.
I can't think of any car available today or in the past that was 100% perfect to me. I had some complaints about the 4th gens Camaros and I bought 3 of them. Does this car have more positives than negatives and if so is it worth your heard earned money... For me I think it does.
07-22-2008, 06:56 PM
#51
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Location: Oakland, California
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07-22-2008, 08:50 PM
#52
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
Ok, first............. I know everyone is excited, and rightly so. After all, it has been a long wait, and there is still more wait to come.
However, please do not let your enthusiasm cloud your vision.
So many here are comparing this 2010 Camaro to the 2005 Mustang. Why??? I know you will say I am nuts, and that you are comparing it to the 2009 Mustang. But, 2009 Mustang = 2005 Mustang. They are the exact same car, and the 2009 is the last year for the current car.
You CANNOT say that the 2010 Camaro will blow away the 2010 Mustang, because you know nothing about it. Ford has not been showing it to the public for years............... and they have not released specs on it a year before production. You CANNOT say that the 2010 Camaro interior is lights years better than the 2010 Mustangs................ because you don't know that.
Please do not let your excitement cause you to make a bunch of general statements that will not stand up to the test of time. In other words, we will see.
I can tell you that the 2010 Mustang will be lighter than the current car, and will have more power. The interior will be all new. The current car does 0-60 in 4.9-5.1 seconds, so it is already not far off the mark. Less weight is your friend. We do not know what the suspension setup will be either.
That said, I can tell you what some Mustang people, and just automotive enthusiasts in general. Some like the way it looks, and some don't. My husband is a HUGE 1st gen Camaro fan, and he hates it. Most do not like the interior, as they think the ergonomics look terrible............. much in the same way that the ergonomics of 60's muscle/pony cars were terrible. They don't like the weight, but like the power. They don't like the fuel economy or the fact that the SS requires premium. They reserve judgement on quality of exterior or interior, until they can see the actual production cars. Most are very happy that GM is finally coming out with a new one, as it can only improve the cars it competes with. Most worry that the car will not have staying power, due to the current economic climate, and gas prices.
That about sums it up. Please do not slam me as a Ford/Mustang lover, or a Camaro hater. After all, we do have a 1968 Camaro............... and no Mustangs.
Finally, those with criticisms should always be allowed to voice their opinions. I would bet that the majority of them have owns far more Camaros in their lifetime, than the blind cheerleaders. Our critiques can only improve the car in the future, and can help to ensure there is a future for it.
However, please do not let your enthusiasm cloud your vision.
So many here are comparing this 2010 Camaro to the 2005 Mustang. Why??? I know you will say I am nuts, and that you are comparing it to the 2009 Mustang. But, 2009 Mustang = 2005 Mustang. They are the exact same car, and the 2009 is the last year for the current car.
You CANNOT say that the 2010 Camaro will blow away the 2010 Mustang, because you know nothing about it. Ford has not been showing it to the public for years............... and they have not released specs on it a year before production. You CANNOT say that the 2010 Camaro interior is lights years better than the 2010 Mustangs................ because you don't know that.
Please do not let your excitement cause you to make a bunch of general statements that will not stand up to the test of time. In other words, we will see.
I can tell you that the 2010 Mustang will be lighter than the current car, and will have more power. The interior will be all new. The current car does 0-60 in 4.9-5.1 seconds, so it is already not far off the mark. Less weight is your friend. We do not know what the suspension setup will be either.
That said, I can tell you what some Mustang people, and just automotive enthusiasts in general. Some like the way it looks, and some don't. My husband is a HUGE 1st gen Camaro fan, and he hates it. Most do not like the interior, as they think the ergonomics look terrible............. much in the same way that the ergonomics of 60's muscle/pony cars were terrible. They don't like the weight, but like the power. They don't like the fuel economy or the fact that the SS requires premium. They reserve judgement on quality of exterior or interior, until they can see the actual production cars. Most are very happy that GM is finally coming out with a new one, as it can only improve the cars it competes with. Most worry that the car will not have staying power, due to the current economic climate, and gas prices.
That about sums it up. Please do not slam me as a Ford/Mustang lover, or a Camaro hater. After all, we do have a 1968 Camaro............... and no Mustangs.
Finally, those with criticisms should always be allowed to voice their opinions. I would bet that the majority of them have owns far more Camaros in their lifetime, than the blind cheerleaders. Our critiques can only improve the car in the future, and can help to ensure there is a future for it.
1. You own a 1st Gen Camaro.
2. You've only seen photos of the car and not driven one.
3. Because I don't own a Camaro and therefore considered a cheerleader, totally disregarding that I am a potential buyer.
4. Because of rumours of the 2010 Mustang being lighter, more powerful, etc... is enough to get the GM faithful running scared.
HOGWASH!
07-22-2008, 09:05 PM
#53
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
I'll stand by my assertion, thanks. It's not just performance, but also CAFE and safety that are impacted.
The car needs a diet. I figure 160 lbs. is a good goal, and probably manageable.
Will it overcome it's heft in relation to the competition? That's possible... to a point... but certainly not preferable... Especially since if the Mustang GT is picked out as the performance benchmark, that's a terminal case of "aiming low".
Now, I can understand the need to move away from the "performance ONLY" criteria that lots of folks place on cars like this (and I also do, to a point...), but the Auto-X guys are going to avoid it like the plague (see above...), the drag racers aren't going to be happy, and the road racers are going to be apalled (they already are)...
If it's more profitable to target the car at a kinder, gentler, buyer to increase sales (and add a buttload of mass), then do so - but expect the backlash from guys like me.
That's fair too... there aren't enough guys like me out there to support the program anyway... which the F4 proved... sorta... (actually updating the thing at something less than decade long intervals might have helped, but that's water under the bridge now).
That being said, don't try to feed me a Zoftig older gal and tell me she's an super toned 20 year old hottie. She's not.
Finally, I want this car to succeed. I want the car to do well. I want the assertions here that the car's new design and features and general character will increase sales to be spot-on correct.
Constructive suggestion:
If the Camaro engineering team is not burning the midnight oil to get weight out of this car in an absolute panic program for the upcoming Z28 (which is supposed to be a "Zero BS" hotrod) then I feel a terrible mistake is being made.
The car needs a diet. I figure 160 lbs. is a good goal, and probably manageable.
Will it overcome it's heft in relation to the competition? That's possible... to a point... but certainly not preferable... Especially since if the Mustang GT is picked out as the performance benchmark, that's a terminal case of "aiming low".
Now, I can understand the need to move away from the "performance ONLY" criteria that lots of folks place on cars like this (and I also do, to a point...), but the Auto-X guys are going to avoid it like the plague (see above...), the drag racers aren't going to be happy, and the road racers are going to be apalled (they already are)...
If it's more profitable to target the car at a kinder, gentler, buyer to increase sales (and add a buttload of mass), then do so - but expect the backlash from guys like me.
That's fair too... there aren't enough guys like me out there to support the program anyway... which the F4 proved... sorta... (actually updating the thing at something less than decade long intervals might have helped, but that's water under the bridge now).
That being said, don't try to feed me a Zoftig older gal and tell me she's an super toned 20 year old hottie. She's not.
Finally, I want this car to succeed. I want the car to do well. I want the assertions here that the car's new design and features and general character will increase sales to be spot-on correct.
Constructive suggestion:
If the Camaro engineering team is not burning the midnight oil to get weight out of this car in an absolute panic program for the upcoming Z28 (which is supposed to be a "Zero BS" hotrod) then I feel a terrible mistake is being made.
And your grievance wrt weight has been noted.
Do you need to continue your negativity given GM are in no position to change it? NO!
07-22-2008, 09:30 PM
#54
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Payson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,181
So you believe you are well credentialed to talk tough because...
1. You own a 1st Gen Camaro.
2. You've only seen photos of the car and not driven one.
3. Because I don't own a Camaro and therefore considered a cheerleader, totally disregarding that I am a potential buyer.
4. Because of rumours of the 2010 Mustang being lighter, more powerful, etc... is enough to get the GM faithful running scared.
HOGWASH!
1. You own a 1st Gen Camaro.
2. You've only seen photos of the car and not driven one.
3. Because I don't own a Camaro and therefore considered a cheerleader, totally disregarding that I am a potential buyer.
4. Because of rumours of the 2010 Mustang being lighter, more powerful, etc... is enough to get the GM faithful running scared.
HOGWASH!
1) Yes I do, thank you.
2) You have only seen photos of the car, and have not driven it either. I would venture to guess that you have not even seen photos of the 2010 Mustang, and have probably not driven it either.
3) Do note that I talked about blind cheerleading. If you fall into that catagory, then I guess I was talking about you. Blind cheerleading is the most extreme type........... basically, nothing can possibly be wrong with what they love, and you are not EVEN allowed to talk about it, even if there is something wrong with it........... which there isn't. Basically, you read a little too much into what I said. Or maybe I hit too close to home............ who knows.
4) Nobody said that anyone should be running scared. It was more of an FYI thing, due to the fact that everyone is talking about this 2010 Camaro against the current Mustang. I guess that because Ford is so lame, they will never update the Mustang?? I mean, goodness knows, all they have done is mismanage the Mustang "brand." Its not like they sell or anything. In other words, once again, I was trying to inject a small amount of reason. Plus, many of these posts just turn into "Mustang sucks no matter what" posts.
I love Mustangs and Camaros. I wish good on both. This thread just read a little silly, because it slammed on anyone who dared to not totally love the 2010 Camaro. The concerns are legitimate, and have a right to be voiced.
That said, I hope you get your new Camaro, some time next year. Please let us know how it is, good and bad.
BTW, I am into lighter weight, and handling. Straightline performance means very little to me.
07-22-2008, 09:46 PM
#55
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
If for some reason somebody comes up with what they believe is a valid criticism, all off a sudden it just gets discarded as "negativity"?!?!?
Here's a little fact for ya:
GM themselves has decided that the 350Z is a benchmark for this car on some level.
Personally, I think that's a terrible benchmark. The 350Z is not especially quick, and altogether not that impressive.
BUT, since they decided it was a benchmark, here's the part of the comparison that really is painful...
***The F5 SS is roughly FIVE HUNDRED pounds heavier than a 350Z.***
Last edited by PacerX; 07-22-2008 at 10:31 PM.
07-22-2008, 10:44 PM
#56
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
Little of your input is anything worthwhile wrt the Camaro. Did you realise that when you decided to sit down and write a novel?
07-22-2008, 10:48 PM
#57
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
Wait a second here...
If for some reason somebody comes up with what they believe is a valid criticism, all off a sudden it just gets discarded as "negativity"?!?!?
Here's a little fact for ya:
GM themselves has decided that the 350Z is a benchmark for this car on some level.
Personally, I think that's a terrible benchmark. The 350Z is not especially quick, and altogether not that impressive.
BUT, since they decided it was a benchmark, here's the part of the comparison that really is painful...
***The F5 SS is roughly FIVE HUNDRED pounds heavier than a 350Z.***
If for some reason somebody comes up with what they believe is a valid criticism, all off a sudden it just gets discarded as "negativity"?!?!?
Here's a little fact for ya:
GM themselves has decided that the 350Z is a benchmark for this car on some level.
Personally, I think that's a terrible benchmark. The 350Z is not especially quick, and altogether not that impressive.
BUT, since they decided it was a benchmark, here's the part of the comparison that really is painful...
***The F5 SS is roughly FIVE HUNDRED pounds heavier than a 350Z.***
I think it's more a Mustang/Dodge rival, myself... but as I said, this car isn't purely about racing. It's worth more than that to GM. Maybe the 'next Gen' will be based on a smaller platform? Who knows?
07-22-2008, 11:12 PM
#58
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Detroit, MI USA
Posts: 2,301
No -- the Impala would be on zeta -- but there would be a world of difference -- so the Camaro is not the 2-door equivalent of the Impala -- I believe that's how you put it --
07-22-2008, 11:19 PM
#59
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
Jeff, I want you to read this post very carefully, so you can see where I'm coming from.
First some minor houskeeping, I'm not over the top, because this Camaro IS the coupe version of the cancelled Zeta Impala - that's a fact. So there's that.
The bigger and much more important picture is this though. Although lots of people on fan sites are drooling over this Camaro, the sad truth is that not all of them will buy one. And those that actually do - won't all buy new. I think we can agree on that so far. Beyond that, I believe that this car's mass and MPG numbers will serve to give it a sale hit when it actually comes time to sign on the dotted line, for many "non-enthusiast consumers". We can argue about that, but that's my belief.
So why do I care? Because I'm taking the big picture, 10,000ft view here on the Camaro brand. Shortly, serious discussions will start on a 6th gen. If/when the 5th gen falls short on it's sales numbers, I don't want that to crucify to 6th gen. I don't want some GM dweeb in Ca suit to go into a meeting and say:" See, we gave the enthusiasts EXACTLY what they wanted, and this product's sales performance fell short. I say let's kill any further discussion about Camaro or it's future".
I needs to be known AND VERBALIZED, that yes WE KNOW, that this car is compromised. And we want GM to know that we know. That if this car fails, don't blame the Camaro brand or the "ponycar concept". Blame it on the fact that this particular product hits off center on the ponycar formula.
First some minor houskeeping, I'm not over the top, because this Camaro IS the coupe version of the cancelled Zeta Impala - that's a fact. So there's that.
The bigger and much more important picture is this though. Although lots of people on fan sites are drooling over this Camaro, the sad truth is that not all of them will buy one. And those that actually do - won't all buy new. I think we can agree on that so far. Beyond that, I believe that this car's mass and MPG numbers will serve to give it a sale hit when it actually comes time to sign on the dotted line, for many "non-enthusiast consumers". We can argue about that, but that's my belief.
So why do I care? Because I'm taking the big picture, 10,000ft view here on the Camaro brand. Shortly, serious discussions will start on a 6th gen. If/when the 5th gen falls short on it's sales numbers, I don't want that to crucify to 6th gen. I don't want some GM dweeb in Ca suit to go into a meeting and say:" See, we gave the enthusiasts EXACTLY what they wanted, and this product's sales performance fell short. I say let's kill any further discussion about Camaro or it's future".
I needs to be known AND VERBALIZED, that yes WE KNOW, that this car is compromised. And we want GM to know that we know. That if this car fails, don't blame the Camaro brand or the "ponycar concept". Blame it on the fact that this particular product hits off center on the ponycar formula.
The original Camaro was built on a Nova platform, for god's sake. That wasn't compromised? The 4th gen was based on an update 10-year-old 3rd gen platform, which was itself an updated Monza platform, which was an updated Vega platform [if the story I read was correct]. All Camaros have been compromised. The 2nd gens even weighed almost as much as the new one, back when 200hp was a lot of horsepower.
The Camaro has always borrowed a platform from elsewhere, because its volumes and price don't allow designing a car from the ground up explicitly for its 2+2 RWD mission.
What's with the obsessing over the word 'ponycar' anyway? The only time I've seen that word used in the past 30 years is in a nostalgic context. I've never used the word to refer to a 3rd or 4th or 5th gen Camaro, except for effect.
In 25 years, the Camaro has gone from 190hp and 3400 pounds to 420hp and 3900 pounds. In the same time a Honda Civic has gone from 65hp and 1900 pounds to 140hp and 2900 pounds.
Btw, you seem to think that you're somehow helping the 6th gen's cause. You might want to ask those involved (you hint that you know some) whether they agree.
07-22-2008, 11:20 PM
#60
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Detroit, MI USA
Posts: 2,301
Yup! Pretty much!
Correct me if I'm wrong --but I posted that and I don't recall that many people disagreed.......
The bottom line is that this car has to appeal to a wider audience -- and dear friends -- the number of people that are upset about the weight (in terms of performance) is negligible in the grand scheme of things -- and the sad part? They have judged without driving. (not all -- but some have..)
At some point, decisions have to be made.......and dear GOD let me say it one more time: we don't like weight either -- ESPECIALLY with new CAFE laws that we're facing -- but we still have to make a quality car and take care of the issues that people had with the 4th gen..............
I'm sorry - but people really need to see the reality here -- YES - we could get it down to 3500 pounds - but that means cutting corners (quality) or using exotic materials ($$$$$$$$)