Eric77TA

While I too would like to see a lighter weight, great handling Z/28 package Vs. a heavier, supercharged one, I have to ask myself...

Had their been messageboards in 1970 would we have read...

"The Z/28 is NOT a 350 powered car! 350 was always the SS! No 302. No Z/28. Period"

I'm just curious. That was a huge change for the package at the time.

Z284ever

Had there been message boards in 1970, I suspect the outcry would have been: "How dare you make AC and automatic trans available on our race car!!!"

radz282003

I think these last two points go to show how times change. I seriously doubt there is a market big enough for a stipped down racer, let alone if GM even admitted to a race package, it seems it would go against it's current green stance on cars (at least that the stance it looks like they are taking IMHO.) I think more people expect more from a car - more performance and value, more comfort, and just an all around better car than the competition. The Germans make huge cars but they perform like no one's business. On the flip side, one pays for that performance, but to see they can take a big heavy lump of steel and make them perform so well just astounds me. I just happen to think that going the way the Germans have, instead of a lower content car that only hardcore racers are going to purchase, is how GM will do it. The majority of the market just isn't like it was in the 60s and 70s IMHO.

5thgen69camaro

Everything you just mentioned is semantecs completely irrelevant to me. It was a COPO 427 ZL1. The fact that it shared parts with others vehicles is no different then SS and Z28 of the time sharing parts.

COPO is Central Order Production Order when everything ordered the regular way if this car was named would be RPO Regular Production Order. The ZL1 is the 427 Aluminum big block. It is as if Tiger Woods as capable as he was namless.

The 69 COPO ZL1 is one of my favorite cars. I am a 69 COPO fan and used to watch Ebay to see when they and other cool 69's were listed. Whether someone feels that doesnt mean anything because the politics of the time would not allow the car a model name such a car deserved is up to them. I am a 1969 COPO ZL1 fan! Either call it a COPO or a ZL1 as it is a Z car

Call it COPO, call it ZL1 but give the damned thing a name it was denied in the first place. It was not an SS it was not a base car. It wasnt really a Z/28though that was the closed to it. It wasnt a Yenko which btw was not a model either. Nor did have the badge of a Z/28, Yenko sYc, SS. The car had the coolest badge to my eye. The blue chevy bowtie.

People complain about a supercharger adding weight to a Z28. Thats fine because thats right in line with the COPO ZL1. But Such a car would have the light weight components of a Z/28

CLEAN

So we're back to the bruiser vs cruiser argument. Fair enough. I'll re-state my long standing opinion that the SS should be just as it is, the Z28 should be no frills (but not stripped) w/ the biggest tires/brakes/bars you can fit into it for the autocross folks. Make the LS3/L99 standard for both. Make the LSA optional for both.

Doug Harden

You know....when you wade through all the bluster.....we (99.5% of us anyway) actually AGREE on something!?!?!

Now, GM are YOU listening???

Pruettfan

There are a couple of points discussed here that I don't really agree with. First and foremost there is no way that GM would build the Z28 with a target of 5000 units. That comes from one of the many rumors that has no factual basis. Second is that the cost of gas has less effect on a prospective car like the Z28 because like the Z06 for instance the car is not likely to be a daily driver for many owners. I suspect that we will see a Z28 at some time in the first three years of generation 5 production. Similar to GM's approach with the C6, it would not make much sense for GM to steal the thunder from the SS with yet more choices for potential buyers. As it stands they have LS, LT, RS and SS with various combos of packages. For those worried about CAFE you need to look at the statistical significance of even a Z28 at 20,000 units, it does not hurt GM nearly as much as trucks do.

If GM builds it I will buy one because I can and I have a long history with Camaro. I think it will be interesting to see what GM does but in the mean time I am planning on an SS/RS.

1fastdog

I appreciate all the passionate talk revolving around the Camaro "flavors" we know about and for those maybe to come in the future.

I don't believe there was ever any buzz that a Z/28 would be available in the first production year. At least nothing I was ever made aware of anywhere along the line..

The climate right now is not conducive for any fireworks about very high performance cars. IMO, it's a case that right now is not the time for manufacturers to tout big HP or in your face < often considered environmentally unfriendly and anti-social by some segments > vehicles based in "ultra" high performance.

I think it's far smarter to allow Camaro to get a fair shake from the automotive media and general media.

What is being missed here is that there isn't much patience being excercised about what is definately coming or what might come. No real roadtests, no test drives at dealers, none of those very essential things. We Camaro fans are still dancing in the abstract, if for little othr reason that very few have turned an actual wheel in a new Camaro. Both the V6 and V8 Camaros deserve some time in the spotlight. They WILL exceed a lot of potential customer's expectations.

Any other potential customers who can't be seduced by anything but a Z/28 might better serve their own interests in being very honest on what their price point is, and what kind of Camaro will let them see the value and thus pull the trigger on a sale.

It's up to this forum to determine if such an honest appraisal is worth the effort. Used buyers do play a role in the projected part of the car business, but they really don't inspire me to take their word for what will be worthwhile to build. There is an abundance of puffery on the internet, regardless of the subject matter.

I'm still a Camaro customer, even if I own a Z06. I have never owned a Camaro that wasn't badged as a Z/28, ever. I haven't purchased a used car since I was 16... Forty years of new deliveries have sprung from my enthusiasm.

I'm certainly not in a position to determine the "wheat from the chaff" on this site. I can suggest that the potential buyers might find the best self-serving method to achieve their desires through truthfully qualifying their actual wants and intents.

A business case isn't built upon merely what people say they want... it's what they want and demonstrate that they WILL BUY and at what price.

1fastdog

Every business case is dependant on the amount of confidence that there's a solid profit, without regard to units sold as much as money spent to money made.

Specifications meeting expectations. It's a key, however, inspiring the check to be stroked or the note be signed... only then you walk in financial reality. It isn't simple, but it is elemental.

If there is a solid business case, there is a solid chance it will be pursued. Of course, you should shoot for the max sales but, not one unit over the max beneficial build.

Large numbers of units sold can suggest that there is benefit from the economies of scale. Still, ROI is the name of the game. Building exactly to the market is the perfect scenario. Building one less than the demand is even better for the seller and the buyer; mostly because the buyer benefits from not only residual value but some degree of exclusivity can also benefit the seller and customer. No sin can be called when the customer is reassured he/she made a wise and timely buy.

Making money depends more on how a company reviews the profit potential in dollars and customer satisfaction rather than buy into a project miscalculated into an unrealistic scenario. Miss the first side of the ROI equation? You will rue the day.

Freak

I agree, but we know the Mustang is getting an upgrade for the 2010 model, due out at about the same time as the Camaro, So it would be foolish to believe that the Shelby will be the same car. I'm sure GM is anxiously waiting to see what the GT500 ends up being and will hopefully adjust the car to best it.

I imagine that has a lot to do with knowing both the Camaro and the new Mustang will be hitting the streets early next year.

Freak

Not really a valid comparison as the change from a 302 to a 350 was done because the rules for the racing class they were designed for changed, and allowed the bigger engine.

TTopJohn

A dramatic departure from what is already developed for the 5th gen isn't in the cards. 100s of pounds of weight are not going to go away for the Z28 (which, btw, is not dead or on hold, it simply won't be out at the start of production). What I don't get is how anyone thinks the SS, and the Z28 to come later, will be ill handling pigs. 1) we haven't driven the thing yet 2)they appear to have put more into chassis tuning on this 5th gen than any previous camaro (I don't recall any testing at the north loop of the 'ring for the 1st through 4th gen) 3) there are plenty of 3700-4000 lb cars that handle very well.

Of course, many of the "an LSA car will be a heavy ill handling pig" folk call their judgment into question by pissing all over the ZR1. Yes it weighs more than a Z06. But it sure doesn't seem to be an ill handling pig - have you watched the sub 7:30 at the 'ring video?

Someone a few pages back proposed a 400 horsepower turbo 6 for the Z28. That gives us 2 400 horsepower engines, since we've already got the L99. Except one has the expense and weight of DOHC and a turbo. Why spend the extra $ to do this when the end result will essentially duplicate the L99? It will create confusion in the showroom and be a waste of $. See the Mustang SVO for an example.

Chocolate Apocalypse

I'm amazed that so many people are hung up on what the Z28 was and not what it could become. I guess only time will tell.

97z28/m6

a 1LE IS what a Z28 should be.

5thgen69camaro

Not being sarcastic but on what?

I could be wrong but doesnt that open opertunity for an SS 1LE some suspension parts of maybe a Z28 with the engine of an SS making an SS 1LE a car between the two? SS is what Im after if I can swing it. If a 1LE package on the SS car isnt too much thats what I would like. If I wait 1 year for a used after the mark ups that may be my plan...