Disappointed.
07-29-2008, 06:42 PM
#46
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07-29-2008, 07:42 PM
#47
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07-29-2008, 08:24 PM
#48
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07-29-2008, 09:20 PM
#51
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An LS7 is a $15k engine. With all the exotics it possess its a really underpowered engine (detuned). If a base ls3 makes 436hp that would equal 492HP in a regular trim. So i think the LS7 is super detuned at 505 or 512hp that is what they actually output on the dyno (430-440rwhp)
I know that wasnt the point of your post, but I get irritated when I hear anything having to do with underrating when SAE Certification has put an end to it.
07-29-2008, 10:15 PM
#53
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The LS7 doesnt make 512 HP. its an SAE Certified engine, meaning all the LS7's make within +-1% of its rated HP. I've seen some LS7 dyno's where they made 445 rwhp, giving it 12% losses. If it made 450 rwhp, then the drivetrain lost even less, but the LS7 is still going to be making within +-1% of it's rated power.
I know that wasnt the point of your post, but I get irritated when I hear anything having to do with underrating when SAE Certification has put an end to it.
I know that wasnt the point of your post, but I get irritated when I hear anything having to do with underrating when SAE Certification has put an end to it.
The 15% drivetrain loss is an average guesstimate... but cars loose a lot less than that on my dyno tests.
07-29-2008, 11:28 PM
#54
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understandable. but the LS7 may not be SAE certified for european markets, i don't know. Not sure how that works exactly. Maybe they have different standards to how they come up with what a horsepower is. But in the US, they make 505 hp +-1%.
07-30-2008, 12:12 AM
#55
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512 metric horsepower is 505 sae horsepower.
The sooner we switch to kilowatts, the sooner we can get rid of this confusion.
377kw is 377kw no matter where you are (as long as you're using the same standard).
Last edited by teal98; 07-30-2008 at 12:19 AM. Reason: clarification.
07-30-2008, 12:17 AM
#56
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http://www.autozine.org/html/0_spec.htm
JIS is apparently the most optimistic.
07-30-2008, 01:03 AM
#57
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Maybe a better analogy would be that the Z/28 should be more Camaro Z06 rather than Camaro GT500. A lighter Z/28 would be great, but I see two issues:
1) Zeta has it weight baked in it's structure. It's no easy feat to lighten it substantially. Certainly not by the amount we'd want, and certainly not for the money that GM would spend on a Z/28 program. So that's a problem.
1) Zeta has it weight baked in it's structure. It's no easy feat to lighten it substantially. Certainly not by the amount we'd want, and certainly not for the money that GM would spend on a Z/28 program. So that's a problem.
So if Zeta is too heavy to be the Z/28 then the only way to lighten it is to delete content.
So let’s start with the removal of the LSA and plumbing to go with it and massage the NA LS3 into something a bit more powerful. Let’s cut some airbags out, remove the fancy radio and seats and replace them with racing buckets and get rid of the back seat entirely. Take off AC to let the LS3 keep more of its power and balance the suspension out for a lighter and more nimble vehicle. Finish with a set of much lighter racing wheels. Net loss in weight 100-150 lbs. Power increase 35-45hp. Stripes no extra charge.
In the realm of this car I think that would qualify as a Z/28. Regroup and focus the whole lighter Camaro program on the 6th Gen.
Well lets just hope that along with the Camaro program making it to production the money has mostly already been spent on the Z/28 and that it too will make it. However if it's the LSA powered GT500 fighter as we have speculated will it make much difference...
07-30-2008, 01:39 AM
#58
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Location: The Golden State
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Let me paint a picture here.
Say that US automakers are lining up to convince the government that with the plunge in vehicle sales, their business is hurting. They have bled billions of dollars, and have borrowed billions more. They need relief, and the one thing that can send them under is upcoming aggressive CAFE standards that set high standards quickly towards the 2020 goal of 35 mpg combined.
Say that these car makers propose that car and truck standards are separated because technology to comply with these new standards means alot of expense that will be added to new vehicles and will scare off more buyers and make things worse. Say they even manage to get Toyota in on this. Then, in the middle of all this, when they actually get the government to have second thoughts on stiff CAFE standards.....
...... General Motors comes out with a roughly 525 horsepower, 190 mph, 12 or 13 mpg Chevrolet Camaro.
Not a smart move.
Ford's GT 500 is already been out for 3 years, and there isn't going to be much of a gap if any between the current one and the one based on next year's redesigned Mustang, so it won't even get noticed in all this.
Fair? Nope. But but the situation's existed before, but reversed. Ford got roasted alive when they brought out the Excursion in 2000 while the Suburban (which had been out for years) was all but ignored.
Add to this scenario the fact that the whole idea of creating a $40,000K+ Camaro that's going to sell less than 5,000 annually (about 3K less than the GT500), and General Motor's general dislike for very low production vehicles that require alot of certification that don't have a Corvette or Cadillac badge on it, and you have a vehicle that isn't likely to have strong support (putting it mildly) for production.
Just painting a 'possible' scenario.
Say that US automakers are lining up to convince the government that with the plunge in vehicle sales, their business is hurting. They have bled billions of dollars, and have borrowed billions more. They need relief, and the one thing that can send them under is upcoming aggressive CAFE standards that set high standards quickly towards the 2020 goal of 35 mpg combined.
Say that these car makers propose that car and truck standards are separated because technology to comply with these new standards means alot of expense that will be added to new vehicles and will scare off more buyers and make things worse. Say they even manage to get Toyota in on this. Then, in the middle of all this, when they actually get the government to have second thoughts on stiff CAFE standards.....
...... General Motors comes out with a roughly 525 horsepower, 190 mph, 12 or 13 mpg Chevrolet Camaro.
Not a smart move.
Ford's GT 500 is already been out for 3 years, and there isn't going to be much of a gap if any between the current one and the one based on next year's redesigned Mustang, so it won't even get noticed in all this.
Fair? Nope. But but the situation's existed before, but reversed. Ford got roasted alive when they brought out the Excursion in 2000 while the Suburban (which had been out for years) was all but ignored.
Add to this scenario the fact that the whole idea of creating a $40,000K+ Camaro that's going to sell less than 5,000 annually (about 3K less than the GT500), and General Motor's general dislike for very low production vehicles that require alot of certification that don't have a Corvette or Cadillac badge on it, and you have a vehicle that isn't likely to have strong support (putting it mildly) for production.
Just painting a 'possible' scenario.
07-30-2008, 08:54 AM
#59
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
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I'm all for the Z/28 to be the Z06 of the Camaro but as we've debated many times Zeta is just heavy and GM decided to fill this car with content, 5-star crash ratings and enough airbags to cocoon the driver and passenger. I think we agree on that.
So if Zeta is too heavy to be the Z/28 then the only way to lighten it is to delete content.
So let’s start with the removal of the LSA and plumbing to go with it and massage the NA LS3 into something a bit more powerful. Let’s cut some airbags out, remove the fancy radio and seats and replace them with racing buckets and get rid of the back seat entirely. Take off AC to let the LS3 keep more of its power and balance the suspension out for a lighter and more nimble vehicle. Finish with a set of much lighter racing wheels. Net loss in weight 100-150 lbs. Power increase 35-45hp. Stripes no extra charge.
In the realm of this car I think that would qualify as a Z/28. Regroup and focus the whole lighter Camaro program on the 6th Gen.
Well lets just hope that along with the Camaro program making it to production the money has mostly already been spent on the Z/28 and that it too will make it. However if it's the LSA powered GT500 fighter as we have speculated will it make much difference...
So if Zeta is too heavy to be the Z/28 then the only way to lighten it is to delete content.
So let’s start with the removal of the LSA and plumbing to go with it and massage the NA LS3 into something a bit more powerful. Let’s cut some airbags out, remove the fancy radio and seats and replace them with racing buckets and get rid of the back seat entirely. Take off AC to let the LS3 keep more of its power and balance the suspension out for a lighter and more nimble vehicle. Finish with a set of much lighter racing wheels. Net loss in weight 100-150 lbs. Power increase 35-45hp. Stripes no extra charge.
In the realm of this car I think that would qualify as a Z/28. Regroup and focus the whole lighter Camaro program on the 6th Gen.
Well lets just hope that along with the Camaro program making it to production the money has mostly already been spent on the Z/28 and that it too will make it. However if it's the LSA powered GT500 fighter as we have speculated will it make much difference...
On the one hand, I'd like to see a truly well done Z/28. I think it would be good for the brand, and hey, if they can find a couple hundred pounds to drop, I'd consider one.
On the other hand, I see the 5th gen as more of a Monte Carlo replacement, (with some Camaro styling elements). Can you really spin a "REAL" Z/28 off of that? And should you even try?
07-30-2008, 08:55 AM
#60
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Let me paint a picture here.
Say that US automakers are lining up to convince the government that with the plunge in vehicle sales, their business is hurting. They have bled billions of dollars, and have borrowed billions more. They need relief, and the one thing that can send them under is upcoming aggressive CAFE standards that set high standards quickly towards the 2020 goal of 35 mpg combined.
Say that these car makers propose that car and truck standards are separated because technology to comply with these new standards means alot of expense that will be added to new vehicles and will scare off more buyers and make things worse. Say they even manage to get Toyota in on this. Then, in the middle of all this, when they actually get the government to have second thoughts on stiff CAFE standards.....
...... General Motors comes out with a roughly 525 horsepower, 190 mph, 12 or 13 mpg Chevrolet Camaro.
Not a smart move.
Ford's GT 500 is already been out for 3 years, and there isn't going to be much of a gap if any between the current one and the one based on next year's redesigned Mustang, so it won't even get noticed in all this.
Fair? Nope. But but the situation's existed before, but reversed. Ford got roasted alive when they brought out the Excursion in 2000 while the Suburban (which had been out for years) was all but ignored.
Add to this scenario the fact that the whole idea of creating a $40,000K+ Camaro that's going to sell less than 5,000 annually (about 3K less than the GT500), and General Motor's general dislike for very low production vehicles that require alot of certification that don't have a Corvette or Cadillac badge on it, and you have a vehicle that isn't likely to have strong support (putting it mildly) for production.
Just painting a 'possible' scenario.
Say that US automakers are lining up to convince the government that with the plunge in vehicle sales, their business is hurting. They have bled billions of dollars, and have borrowed billions more. They need relief, and the one thing that can send them under is upcoming aggressive CAFE standards that set high standards quickly towards the 2020 goal of 35 mpg combined.
Say that these car makers propose that car and truck standards are separated because technology to comply with these new standards means alot of expense that will be added to new vehicles and will scare off more buyers and make things worse. Say they even manage to get Toyota in on this. Then, in the middle of all this, when they actually get the government to have second thoughts on stiff CAFE standards.....
...... General Motors comes out with a roughly 525 horsepower, 190 mph, 12 or 13 mpg Chevrolet Camaro.
Not a smart move.
Ford's GT 500 is already been out for 3 years, and there isn't going to be much of a gap if any between the current one and the one based on next year's redesigned Mustang, so it won't even get noticed in all this.
Fair? Nope. But but the situation's existed before, but reversed. Ford got roasted alive when they brought out the Excursion in 2000 while the Suburban (which had been out for years) was all but ignored.
Add to this scenario the fact that the whole idea of creating a $40,000K+ Camaro that's going to sell less than 5,000 annually (about 3K less than the GT500), and General Motor's general dislike for very low production vehicles that require alot of certification that don't have a Corvette or Cadillac badge on it, and you have a vehicle that isn't likely to have strong support (putting it mildly) for production.
Just painting a 'possible' scenario.