8Banger

How many times must this be stated so everyone will get it into their thick
skulls.

onebadponcho

"The world's largest automaker plans to certify all of its engines to the voluntary standard, and is encouraging its competitors to do the same."

OK. Does that mean EVERY SINGLE engine that comes off the assembly line is SAE certified/dyno tested, or does the manufacturer send ONE of each engine (i.e. LS3, LS7, etc.) to be tested/certified?

detltu

They only certify the engine for each different configuration that it will appear in. They do not certify each individual engine that they build. One engine from the line is certified to represent the rest of them.

Also in response to blue 79 z/28. I haven't read the standard in a while but I would bet that you are correct. There is probably not a requirement that the manufacturer quote peak horsepower. This could be for reliability reasons. An engine may make peak horsepower at 7000 rpm but because an engine is built to be run at that rpm SAE may allow them to claim horsepower at a lower rpm. I haven't checked it but you are probably correct.

onebadponcho

Yeah, I knew the answer to the question, but I asked it to make a point. It would be completely impractical for the SAE to certify EVERY engine coming off the line.
So that means the manufacturer could feasibly build engines that make more than their rated power. Camshafts can be ground on the "high side" of production tolerances for lift/duration, stuff like that, to make sure if there's any discrepancy from the rated power, it's MORE and not LESS.

Whitten

Yes well all of this SAE bickering quite interesting but...


Since we have an LS3 and know basicly what they already make I thought it would interesting to bench race for second and do ole internet comparison based on Stock Numbers and then numbers from a friends modified 08 vette but with the Camaro weight so here goes.

For reference I used this google gem to get started.
http://www.race-cars.net/calculators/et_calculator.html
Assuming a 3860 Curb weight of an SS with the T6060 Rated at 422hp and then a very uncharacteristic 15% drive loss I come up with 359whp

Stock 359whp:
12.64 @ 107mph

Lightly modded(BPU) 392whp:
12.28@110.92mph

Full BPU with Cam and Tune 451whp:
11.72@116.23mph

In my opinion for a Camaro to be running mid 11's with mods that almost every single one of us will do just for the sound alone is not bad. I for one am impressed. You also have to realize that I was being conservative with the numbers figuring a 15% drive line loss. If I used the numbers straight from my friends Vette it works out like this.


Stock 385whp:
12.36@110.26mph

Lightly modded(BPU) 418whp:
12.02@113.32mph

Full BPU with Cam and Tune 477whp:
11.52@118.23mph

Worry all you want about how it is certified, but you can color me impressed when all I have spend is about 2 grand in mods and some wrench time to be running in the 11's on street tires.

GTOJack

The problem with bench racing is you dont know how the IRS is going to act or hold up in the new Camaro.

blue 79 Z/28

"Engine certification is based on a series of self-certification tests conducted by the manufacturer that are witnessed and verified by an SAE-qualified observer. The procedure for certification is outlined in SAE's standard J2723; the actual horsepower testing procedure is described in J1349. Engine manufacturers are free to cite power and torque figures derived from testing conducted outside the scope of the SAE standards, but in those cases they may not claim those figures are "SAE J1349 Certified Power."

thats straight from the SAE site.

so tell me if they only test a motor to say 5500rpm and state the true max in that rpm range why the motor cannot make even more hp higher up?

ChrisL

Whitten

Actually we do, while the Corvette is not a good comparison with regards to lay-out it gives us some insight. The Camaro was made to perform, with that fact it mind GM is not giving us another 10 bolt turd for a rear end like we had with the previous models. One of the top gripes about the Camaro was that the rear end was weak and I fell very strongly that the rear end issues were not just acknowledged but fixed.
While we really only have the GTO to compare parts with right now I have a sneaking suspicion that we are going to have an IRS that will take a respectable amount of abuse and would also be willing to bet it will handle more beating than the GTO. Besides where does any woman gain weight first...her ***, I think we can assume that if we had a weak rear in the Camaro the car wouldn't be as heavy.

Truthfully even if the ET's aren't spot on the MPH will tell you what the car is capable of. I usually don't judge a car based on ET alone because if I did that I would get my *** handed to me by most supras .

JakeRobb

I know this post was over a week ago, and I apologize for that, but Scott and Jason have said no such thing.

As I have said in other threads, Scott and Jason have said that Z28 is not dead. Neither have said anything about it being on hold, which leads me to suspect that it is on hold.

The LS7 is an engine. It does not dictate a transmission. Assuming you mean the Z06's transmission, that's the TR6060, which is the same 6-speed manual found in all 2008+ Corvettes, the GT500, and in the 5th gen SS.

It's still a TR6060. There are just a couple different variants, to account for mounting position and gearsets. This is one case where GM has no ownership in the tooling or anything like that -- they are simply purchasing transmissions from Tremec and putting them in cars.

Now, it's entirely possible that a different clutch would be necessary.

We'd need the text of J1349 to know for sure. Without that, we're just making stuff up. Anybody know, or want to pay the $60 to buy it, that can let us know what it says?

GTOJack

I'm not comparing the new Camaros rear end to the 4th gen, but to the IRS in the GTO and CTS-V, which had terrible wheel hop under WOT at a standing start. I doubt GM ever ran a quarter mile with drag radials or nitrous on the new SS Camaro, something that will done the first month that they are available to the public. Only then will we see just how strong the half shafts and other components are.

JasonD

That was brought up very point-blank in the 2nd focus group (because many have driven or own GTOs) and here is what Al Oppenheiser said.

We'll see, anyway. It is a newer design but still based on the old one, of course. I am wondering what the breaking point would be.

You are probably right, and they don't need to. They don't build "competition cars" and they aren't warranted for that kind of usage. Not that it stopped many of us, but still...

I always wondered what the fast Vette guys do. Just buy heaver duty aftermarket parts? Does that do the trick?