Sephiroth

I'm sure it has been said, by at least one "Ms. Cleo" on this site....you can't outrun a radio.

30thZ286speed

Actually the Caprice 9C1 was very popular and was rated Americas best police car by MSPs annual tests from the mid 80s up until the B-Body demise in 1996. Even the old square bodied Caprices from the 80s was the fastest and best handling of the flying bricks(Ford LTD, Dodge Dipolmat, Plymouth Gran Fury) back then, even though the LO5 only produced 180-190 hp through the 80s.
The 1991 redesign of the Caprice was met with great controversy over its questionable "areo" styling, and many nick names came about. The controversy soon faded as officers drove the new Caprice 9C1 with its much improved performance with capabilities of breaking the 130 mph barrier, which was the first police sedan to do so in 20 years, all with pretty much the same carryover powertrain, the 5.7L LO5.

Then in 1994 the LT1 became the top engine in the Caprice for 3 short years and the police market would never be the same again as the Caprice took on a legendary status among police cars. With performance that is just now being eclipsed in 2006, 10 years after the Caprice 9C1 ended production. In 1994 MSP pitted a Caprice 9C1 LT1 against a 1993 SSP Mustang on the road course and the Caprice was only 4 tenths of a second slower around the road course than the Mustang, even though the Caprice was 1,000 lbs. heavier.

There were many, many differences between the Caprice 9C1 and the civilian Carpice LT1. GM could do this because the Caprice owned about 70% of the police market, which equaled about 40,000 to 50,000 Caprices each year. Camaro on the other hand only sold a few hundred B4C every year, which would make offering special HD parts a little impracitical. However the 3rd gen Camaro B4C of the early 90s had a lot of 1LE parts on them including dual piston brake calipers. 2002 ended up being the best year for Camaro B4Cs sells at 702 units. Even with that low of a production run, it looks like GM could have used some HD transmissons in the B4C.

KSP (Kentucky State Police) has about a dozen or so 2002 Camaro B4Cs in service, but I haven't heard anything about them having lots of problems with them, there main garage is here in town and they are stored there when there are not in use (bad weather).

guionM

I can't say. CHP didn't run them.

The '97 wasn't a police car, was only about 2 years old, & had about 20-25K miles when I picked it up. It wasn't an abused car by any means before I got it.

We aren't talking about my personal opinions here. We're talking about an office responsible for maintaining cars in the field. My B4C transmission was replaced before I bought it, so I'm kosher for now. But these guys have been dealing with abused cars for years. They think the auto in the Camaro is junk. Given the vehicles they've dealt with over the years, I'd put alot of stock into their opinion.

To top it off, these are much the same guys who were thrilled to death when California bought their batch of B4Cs. These people were still pretty enthusiastic when I got my B4C from them (I had one of the 1st turned in) over a year and a half ago. There has to be something that turned these guys against the car.

Ford had an issue with one of their new automatics in the 90s (not sure of the model), and at the same time, the LT1 9C1s seem to have transmissions that hold up far better than the B4Cs.

Normally, I'd agree with the 'who you talk to/ experiences' point of view. But in this instance, there's a pattern. Transmission, power windows, brakes, engine racket. Nope. These are real.

I've also owned an '85 Mustang SSP, bought at 85K and sold at 225K. I also owned a series of other Mustangs (at least 7) that saw duty with the Highway Patrol which I bought, drove for some time, then sold for more than I paid for them. When I lived in Monterey, a reservist had a Crown Vic Interceptor that saw CHP duty. In San Diego, I've known numerous people who had former CHP LT1 Caprices.

The reason why all of us ran with Police cars (outside of the low price, performance, and the rareity) is that these cars represented the most durable version of these models. If these cars can stand up to hard usage in extreme cases, then they will last forever in the hands of a civilian.

Unlike city police departments, getting a car from the CHP isn't like getting a worn out car from a big city department like the LAPD. The CHP is renouned for the meticulous manintence of their cars & even having a high percentage of officers and support people who by their nature are car buffs. Their cars are run hard on the freeway in extreme tempreatures. Suspensions need to be virturally race track spec while being smooth enough to sit in for hours at a time (my B4C seems a bit softer riding than my Z28 was).

So, no. This isn't just the result of abuse. The abuse is to be expected. Other cars have went through the same usage and it hasn't been an issue. It is with the B4C.

GM might want to either think twice about selling a already flawed car as a police vehicle without doing upgrades 1st, or simply making the regular car better.

GM did it with the 9C1, and police departments still place them high up along with the SSP Mustangs.

fastball

Please don't bite my head off for saying this, because I know alot of you don't want to hear it. But GM is in tough times as a whole right now because the issues you all have described on your 3rd and 4th gen Camaros are all similar and related to every car GM has been building for the last 30 years, in every division. And people who got fed up with burned out power window motors and failing alternators and cracked interior pannels (that's a big one - nearly every GM car from the late 70's on through today has some form of cracked interior plastics after 100k miles) not only vacated GM, but they jumped ship to Japan with Honda and Toyota. Say what you want about blandly styled soft riding rinky-dink 4 cylinder appliances, they don't break.

Many of you have an alegience to GM and your Camaros which will never change, no matter how poorly the car is built. But your opinions are becoming fewer and fewer, as is reflected in the fact Toyota is building cars at a feverish pace and still can't keep up with demand while GM has their cars sitting on lots collecting dust.

GM has been forced to look at how well their cars hold up over time. I don't know if their 5yr/100k mile drivetrain warranty is the answer, but I do think they now understand people take that 30 grand of their heart earned money they just plunked down on a new car alot more seriously than they used to. And it is no longer an issue of whether the car is made in America or if it is whether the profits go to an American corporation. They want long term reliable transporation, a car that spends most if it's existance on the road and not in the garage. Japan has provided that much more than America.

I have faith that the next Camaro will be a much better product than any previous Camaro. Not only in interior fit and finish but in drivetrain and electrical reliability. If not, GM could find themselves in a seriously challenging predicament. Making their current situation seem almost blasse.

In other words, GM's future rides on the reputation of the 5th gen Camaro.

fredmr39

Thanks for the detailed response - answered all the questions I had and makes a lot more sense to me now.... interesting..

Looking at CHP/others seems like a good way to take a large number of cars and look for patterns given their driving conditions/environment etc are all similar (especially since they've used others too we can compare to).... a lot of people have very little problems, but they don't DRIVE their cars... others have big problems (because they OVERLY abuse/are just bad at driving). But it's interesting to get numbers like this from a large group of locally/similarly driven cars (for the most part).

For those reasons, I guess just haven't picked up on these problems in general (besides optispark, power window motors, magic appearing dents, rear end if you're into hard launches all the time....things like that) --speaking of optispark, how did they hold up in any LT1s they have used? Their cars must pick up a lot of miles very quickly -- does the optispark crap out because it has so many miles on it, or is it more the age (not in miles) that hurts it more? (I know some very very low mile LT1s that have just had optis go for no apparent reason....while you see some people have 150k+ on original optis... are the tolerances due to manufacturing really that different? or is it the environment and or age more?) Obviously both contribute...but I was wondering if you noticed any patterns there.

idk....alright no more - nobody speak about opti not being the best, etc, etc, etc -- all I want to know is if Guy has noticed/heard patterns how they've held up from CHP.

guionM

Regarding the Optispark, it's a good system IMO. The logic behind it is actually pretty good, but in practice had an issue. It was located directly below a water pump designed to fail at 100K miles (give or take 10K)

I was one of the lucky ones.

Typically when the water pump goes, it leaks into the optispark creating about $800 worth of damage along with the water pump replacement cost. Ouch!

I caught my water pump leak before it got bad enough damage the optispark.

Also, in '96, GM redesigned the optispark so that water (ie: washing down your engine) didn't result in a tow to your Chevrolet dealer and that very same $800 repair bill plus towing.


FWIW: I'm a big fan of the LT1 engine, and I think alot of the thinking that went into it is borderline genious.

The idea behind Optispark was to move the load of the distributor off the camshaft to the stronger crankshaft, eliminating the slight deflection the distributer did to the camshaft. The water pump was driven by a gear off the cam and not the serpentine belt, eliminating the slight deflection (and wearing out) of the shaft bearings on the pump. The intake was excessively low, and actually quite attractive in it's cast shiny aluminum. The valve covers had center mounted bolts creating more even pressure on sealing.

To top it off, I feel the engine sounded way better than the LS1.

hyperv6

Is a Camaro patrol car really needed?

The only reason most used the Camaro or Mustang in the past was for high speed pursuit since most American large sedans could not do this The old 305/318/302 days.

As of last I have seen the new Impala RWD will be based on the Camaro under pinnings and drivetrain. This kind of reminds me of the old F41 Nova's in the 70's. They were Novas with Z 28 bars, steering box and springs near the Camaro's. Here in Ohio departments kept them in service for years since they would out run any of the newer cars till the mid 80's

I just don't see in times of tight budgets departments going for limited use coupes when there will be sedans capable of doing what they want.

As I see it a Camaro patrol car is a non issue in the future. GM needs to addess the Charger potrol car to go along with the old impala FWD [replaced with a 09 Malibu?] and new Tahoe,

As for quality I don't think you can compare 95 with 09 as things have changed and are still improving. But I am not saying there is not still room for improvment. No matter what they do I am sure they can always do better if someone is willing to pay for it. Fleet sales is about making money and if they can imporve profits on Police fleets so be it as they have never been big money makers any way. Every dollar will help.

95 Z/28 LT1

Actually you're half right. The opti was still driven from the camshaft, not the crankshaft. It's being located to the front of the engine allowed for more accurate timing. The opti mounts directly to the end of the cam.

graham

If you've ever priced a front mount distributor for a race car you know the opti isnt a bad deal especially considering its overall size and how its mounted to the cam versus the race car method.

Steve0

And the fact that mounting a distributor on the rear of the engine would have placed it under the dash, making it nearly imppossible to service.

The opti was accurate to to the fact it had 720 reference points to which timing was drawn and adjusted from. These were the leading and trailing edges of each of the 360 slots on the wheel inside of the distributor. A standard design distributor only has 8 reference points, every 45 degrees. It also had no need for mechanical adjustment. With an opti spark the computer could advance and retard timing on individual cylinders.

It was a good system. Just had a few issues. My stock opti lasted over 100,000 miles. I swapped it for peace of mind when I did my waterpump, which was also still in good shape.

fredmr39

Oh yea -- I know it's a good system when it works -- I as well have been one of the lucky ones. I was just wondering if that was one of their complaints as well, or if they all held up. I guess it wouldn't be as much of a problem since you said they got rid of them usually after 100k....

JJJ93z

Good read well stated arguments, but if youre going to buy a fbody with over 100k miles that was used by a police officer you better be willing to invest or at least put aside some serious money b/c you just bought yourself a can of worms.

USA1Camaro

So if CHP doesn't buy 1LE B4C Camaros there is still the possibility that other states will. I just about scored a New Purple Haze B4C in '92.

I'll be looking for a nice ( ha,ha ) retired one a couple years after they come out. Indiana seems to like Camaros.


Here are a couple renditions from another site.

JCS30TH

Man I got to agree with that one. The LT-1 in my 93 Formula with some flows was sic......

Z28Wilson

Not to totally disrespect this thread, but....does this really matter in the big picture? I mean, if the CHP doesn't buy 100 or so Camaros for service use is it going to make or break the model? I can understand not wanting Chevy to have the bad rap it took in some fleet circles from the 4th Gen B4C, but if they aren't willing to look at an all-new and vastly improved 5th Gen Camaro because of what they got in 2002, you aren't going to be able to help that.

If GM is desperate to fix the image of the Camaro cop car, and they stand behind the new one, donate a couple of them to CHP and let them put it through the paces. Then again, if GM is desperately trying to unload 100 Camaros the model has much bigger problems than whether or not CHP likes them.