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Old 12-27-2010, 07:18 PM   #121
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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Originally Posted by 90 Z28SS View Post
Well, right now...the 2011 Mustang GT is about as close to a budget M3 as your gonna get . Its sporty, lightweight( both cars are 36xx lbs) , fun , and economical to own and matches or beats the M3 in every measurable performance test .
But the Camaro SS appears to be quite a bit more profitable, based on incentives and sales volumes.

To be honest, if I were buying a 2011 Pony Car, it'd probably be the Mustang GT. But I don't need a new car, and my 98 Z/28 is still doing fine.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:15 PM   #122
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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But the Camaro SS appears to be quite a bit more profitable, based on incentives and sales volumes.
Since the current Mustang has been out since '05 ('10 to present car is a refresh) I am willing to bet that due to numbers sold, Ford has probably more than "paid for their investment" and can afford to sell the cars with incentive, and still make an overall profit. The local Ford dealer here was offering $3000 rebates on the first '11 cars to hit it's lot!

Once again, this is just speculation... but after the big initial investment to get the Camaro into production, I think the last thing GM would want to do is have to turn to incentives this early in the game. I imaginet there are still quite a few people out there who havent gotten their camaros yet... those waiting for convertibles, GT500's, and those who never buy first year model runs of cars for fear of recalls. I would expect to see some incentives at the latter half of 2011. And hopefully word of some new options/models being released for 2012!
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:26 PM   #123
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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Once again, this is just speculation... but after the big initial investment to get the Camaro into production, I think the last thing GM would want to do is have to turn to incentives this early in the game. I imaginet there are still quite a few people out there who havent gotten their camaros yet... those waiting for convertibles, GT500's, and those who never buy first year model runs of cars for fear of recalls. I would expect to see some incentives at the latter half of 2011. And hopefully word of some new options/models being released for 2012!
I agree. Most cars end up getting advertised in the paper at discounts. Eventually, I would expect to see the Camaro in the Chevy adverts with a discount, just like I do Mustang, Challenger, and Genesis Coupe.
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Old 12-28-2010, 02:19 AM   #124
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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Actually if you read the thread, she was responding on my comment of waiting for prices to come down before I purchase one.
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Exactly. Also, I commented on the sales of cars here, which is not nearly as strong as trucks.

Another issue with small towns and areas, is they have a tendency to be very conservative (Payson started as a ranching town). Our local Chevy/GMC/Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealership suffered quite a bit, due to the bailouts.............. well, that and their poor customer service. Whereas the local Ford dealership benefited greatly.

In areas like this, Domestics outsell imports by large numbers.

Thus, if you are looking for a good place to get big discounts on cars.......... and especially cars from "the other 2" domestics, small communities are a good place to look.

Plus, for jg, it is not hideously far from CA, so transport costs would be lower.
At the risk of derailing this thread further (we're all friends here, right ) I'm not the only one who has noticed. This same observation is from back in October:

Sept 2010 Sales

That being said, any time I hear/see someone trying to use such a small data set as a reference of general sales, population or occurrence, I have to question the thinking. If you want to try to inference overall sales of any cars or trucks as a whole, you should at least try choosing a large sample set or region to validate it. For the rest of your "logic trail", well, I'll leave it alone.
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:06 AM   #125
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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Originally Posted by 90 Z28SS View Post
Well, right now...the 2011 Mustang GT is about as close to a budget M3 as your gonna get . Its sporty, lightweight( both cars are 36xx lbs) , fun , and economical to own and matches or beats the M3 in every measurable performance test .
It's is. The GT with the Brembos is barely a tick behind the M3, the Boss apparently blows it away. I am amused by the argument I see in this thread, that if Chevrolet were to create a great handling Camaro in that vein, that it would somehow LOSE sales. Please.

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Since the current Mustang has been out since '05 ('10 to present car is a refresh) I am willing to bet that due to numbers sold, Ford has probably more than "paid for their investment" and can afford to sell the cars with incentive, and still make an overall profit. The local Ford dealer here was offering $3000 rebates on the first '11 cars to hit it's lot!
And I'm willing to bet that you are correct.
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:04 PM   #126
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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It's is. The GT with the Brembos is barely a tick behind the M3, the Boss apparently blows it away. I am amused by the argument I see in this thread, that if Chevrolet were to create a great handling Camaro in that vein, that it would somehow LOSE sales. Please.
I agree with you that a Chevy Camaro that fit that formula would sell well. Hell, if it fit that formula I'd have one in my driveway right now!

However, a major factor that I think that people aren't acknowledging is the constraints with which the car was designed. GM could either modify a chassis that was already developed, or start from scratch. There is a whole lot less risk developing from an already existing platform, and it probably allowed GM to hit its price target and have much more room for profit. Once again, this is speculation, but from what I've read on this board it seems to be pretty close to the truth. If the option was this, or no Camaro... well I'd rather see some RWD coupe on the lots!

With increasing fuel economy requirements, amongst other things, maybe next go round the car will shrink a size or two?
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Old 12-28-2010, 01:09 PM   #127
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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I agree with you that a Chevy Camaro that fit that formula would sell well. Hell, if it fit that formula I'd have one in my driveway right now!

However, a major factor that I think that people aren't acknowledging is the constraints with which the car was designed. GM could either modify a chassis that was already developed, or start from scratch. There is a whole lot less risk developing from an already existing platform, and it probably allowed GM to hit its price target and have much more room for profit. Once again, this is speculation, but from what I've read on this board it seems to be pretty close to the truth. If the option was this, or no Camaro... well I'd rather see some RWD coupe on the lots!

With increasing fuel economy requirements, amongst other things, maybe next go round the car will shrink a size or two?
Certainly. But that's the precise reason it can't handle like an M3 or a Boss Mustang. It's not the nonsensical argument, "because of if it handled better we'd lose sales"
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Old 12-28-2010, 06:50 PM   #128
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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Originally Posted by Steve0 View Post
Since the current Mustang has been out since '05 ('10 to present car is a refresh) I am willing to bet that due to numbers sold, Ford has probably more than "paid for their investment" and can afford to sell the cars with incentive, and still make an overall profit. The local Ford dealer here was offering $3000 rebates on the first '11 cars to hit it's lot!
Remember also that there were predictions that people were waiting for the '11 powertrains and that there would be a sales bump. That does not appear to have happened.

I think that's because the vast majority of the market does not track the industry that closely or care that much.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:13 PM   #129
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

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Ah Guy ya might want to look again. You are correct that the CTS-V ran a 7min 59 sec Nürburgring Nordschleife 12.9 mile 20,832m lap. And I believe that it's currently the quickest lap of any production 4 door sedan.

But as Steve0 pointed out the it's the same time as a Corvette C6 Z51 driven by Dave Hill. IIRC that was a LS2 400hp 2005 spec Vette.
GM posted the 2006 Z06 at 7.42.99 by Jan Magnussen which is a whole different realm of performance.

And the F430 time by SportAuto is actually 4 seconds quicker at 7min 55sec not 0.04 sec. quicker. Quite a bit different.

Sport Auto represents what I would think is the true enthusiast times. Done by a very good driver familiar with the Ring but the cars are run as is and the results are more in line with real world performance.

This is why it's somewhat dangerous to quote "Ring" times as gospel. As Steve0 mentioned there is a wide variance in times based on conditions, tires, drivers, how the race was started (standing/rolling) and if it was done by a magazine or OEM.

A quick glance at the times shows most of them done by what should be unbiased magazines. Then there are seesntually the "Pro" runs done by GM, Chrysler, Porsche and Nissan which are certainly the most scrutinized but represent the absolute best performance the cars tested can attain. But there is certainly a bias.

However until we have the day when we have cars tested the same day in the same conditions we'll never really have a truly accurate comparison.
Point taken.

Yet, the point still stands that the CTSv, despite weighing in at over 4,200 pounds was made to hustle on the track on par with some serious machinary.

The dogma that simply because something comes in at an arbitrarily named weight... and nothing more... it won't outhandle a lighter car is silly.


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Since the current Mustang has been out since '05 ('10 to present car is a refresh) I am willing to bet that due to numbers sold, Ford has probably more than "paid for their investment" and can afford to sell the cars with incentive, and still make an overall profit.
And you probably be right.


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Originally Posted by MP View Post
It's is. The GT with the Brembos is barely a tick behind the M3, the Boss apparently blows it away. I am amused by the argument I see in this thread, that if Chevrolet were to create a great handling Camaro in that vein, that it would somehow LOSE sales. Please.
To some degree, he's correct.

There is a reason why Ford made the Mustang "Track Pack" optional. 99% of Mustang buyers never go to a track (and they have one of the highest percentages).....That means ride wins over handling.

Yes, regular Mustangs handle extremely well, and are actually very tossable. But not enough people are willing to deal with the lack of compromises in ride a track package would create.

Camaro's handling issue is zeroed in to just 2 things:

Undersized front tires and front bushings that create too much understeer. I experienced it myself tossing around a rental in Pittsburgh last summer. Fix that and although you won't go chasing Track Pack Mustang GTs, you will see complaints about handling dissappear.

But you'll see a different set of complants arise though.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:38 PM   #130
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?

For the record, although I think that the Mustang is the better handling car and carries the most resons for purchasing over the Camaro and Challenger if you are an enthusiast, no one should dismiss the new Camaro by any measure.

The issue of weight has always irked me because some of the very same people who complain about weight are the ones who wanted IRS, high horsepower, manhole cover sized brakes with multiple pistons, and every creature comfort known to man available. The seems these same people get all bent and upset because GM didn't create some magical metal that weighs a fraction of what steel and aluminum weigh and as cheap as iron.

I layed out a challenge many times over many times over the years. Name a single brand new, mass produced, rear drive, V8 powered vehicle that seats at least 4 people that is lighter in weight. I've also pointed out the weights of smaller rwd vehicles including BMW, Hyundai, & Mercedes. Still waiting, but the complaints continue.

I point out what I dislike about the new Camaro (the dash, the quality of interior materials and the cheap feel, the understeer, the sitting-in-a-bathtub/bunker feeling, the mail slot sized trunk opening). But I also point out what I like about the new Camaro (the style, the power, the solidness of the chassis, the stability of IRS, the value...even though the SS bases more than an R/T or a GT).


I am also big enough to say that what I'd like in a 2 door coupe isn't what would sell.

Personally, I'd prefer a Hyundai Genesis coupe sized vehicle weighing in about 3300 pounds with either the 5.3 or a good V6 with 350 horsepower, track ready suspension, and better styling.

And.... judging by the sales of every coupe on the market that doesn't have the name Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger stuck somewhere on it's body.... my ideal car would sell barely better than a Yugo.


Truth is, people don't pay attention to weight. They go by how the vehicle looks, how it feels, does it offer enough room, and is the performance and fuel economy what they want.

The other truth is that this entire website of enthusiasts still represent only an extreme minute fatcion of Camaro buyers, owners, and fans. We are barely enough in numbers to support a paint color on a Camaro, let alone what a Camaro is or isn't. When we start splitting hairs and thinking we (myself included) hold all the answers and are the sole voice of Camaro, one should really start questioning yourself.

It's the public outside that dictates success or failure.

The 2002 4th gen Z28 by our standards should have whipped the snot out of the Mustang GT in sales. In reality, more men bought Mustang V6s than the grand total of all the LS1 Fbodies sold that year. You don't EVEN want to compare GT/Z28 sales that year.

Yet, there are complaints about the current Camaro, and yet it's still selling extremely well. There's a lesson here.

If one chooses not to buy one, that's fine and OK. There's literally hundreds and even thousands of other people out there to take yours (and my) place.

.....and THAT'S what judges how successful a car is.

I don't like everything about the new Camaro, and there's plenty of things I'd change. However, multitudes of people are rediscovering the Camaro... a car that was shunned completely a decade ago and was completely killed off 8 years ago.... They are buying Camaros again!

That's worth far more than anything else.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:38 PM
 
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