teal98

But the Camaro SS appears to be quite a bit more profitable, based on incentives and sales volumes.

To be honest, if I were buying a 2011 Pony Car, it'd probably be the Mustang GT. But I don't need a new car, and my 98 Z/28 is still doing fine.

Steve0

Since the current Mustang has been out since '05 ('10 to present car is a refresh) I am willing to bet that due to numbers sold, Ford has probably more than "paid for their investment" and can afford to sell the cars with incentive, and still make an overall profit. The local Ford dealer here was offering $3000 rebates on the first '11 cars to hit it's lot!

Once again, this is just speculation... but after the big initial investment to get the Camaro into production, I think the last thing GM would want to do is have to turn to incentives this early in the game. I imaginet there are still quite a few people out there who havent gotten their camaros yet... those waiting for convertibles, GT500's, and those who never buy first year model runs of cars for fear of recalls. I would expect to see some incentives at the latter half of 2011. And hopefully word of some new options/models being released for 2012!

teal98

I agree. Most cars end up getting advertised in the paper at discounts. Eventually, I would expect to see the Camaro in the Chevy adverts with a discount, just like I do Mustang, Challenger, and Genesis Coupe.

95 Z/28 LT1

At the risk of derailing this thread further (we're all friends here, right ) I'm not the only one who has noticed. This same observation is from back in October:

https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=13

That being said, any time I hear/see someone trying to use such a small data set as a reference of general sales, population or occurrence, I have to question the thinking. If you want to try to inference overall sales of any cars or trucks as a whole, you should at least try choosing a large sample set or region to validate it. For the rest of your "logic trail", well, I'll leave it alone.

MP

It's is. The GT with the Brembos is barely a tick behind the M3, the Boss apparently blows it away. I am amused by the argument I see in this thread, that if Chevrolet were to create a great handling Camaro in that vein, that it would somehow LOSE sales. Please.

And I'm willing to bet that you are correct.

Steve0

I agree with you that a Chevy Camaro that fit that formula would sell well. Hell, if it fit that formula I'd have one in my driveway right now!

However, a major factor that I think that people aren't acknowledging is the constraints with which the car was designed. GM could either modify a chassis that was already developed, or start from scratch. There is a whole lot less risk developing from an already existing platform, and it probably allowed GM to hit its price target and have much more room for profit. Once again, this is speculation, but from what I've read on this board it seems to be pretty close to the truth. If the option was this, or no Camaro... well I'd rather see some RWD coupe on the lots!

With increasing fuel economy requirements, amongst other things, maybe next go round the car will shrink a size or two?

MP

Certainly. But that's the precise reason it can't handle like an M3 or a Boss Mustang. It's not the nonsensical argument, "because of if it handled better we'd lose sales"

teal98

Remember also that there were predictions that people were waiting for the '11 powertrains and that there would be a sales bump. That does not appear to have happened.

I think that's because the vast majority of the market does not track the industry that closely or care that much.

guionM

Point taken.

Yet, the point still stands that the CTSv, despite weighing in at over 4,200 pounds was made to hustle on the track on par with some serious machinary.

The dogma that simply because something comes in at an arbitrarily named weight... and nothing more... it won't outhandle a lighter car is silly.


And you probably be right.


To some degree, he's correct.

There is a reason why Ford made the Mustang "Track Pack" optional. 99% of Mustang buyers never go to a track (and they have one of the highest percentages).....That means ride wins over handling.

Yes, regular Mustangs handle extremely well, and are actually very tossable. But not enough people are willing to deal with the lack of compromises in ride a track package would create.

Camaro's handling issue is zeroed in to just 2 things:

Undersized front tires and front bushings that create too much understeer. I experienced it myself tossing around a rental in Pittsburgh last summer. Fix that and although you won't go chasing Track Pack Mustang GTs, you will see complaints about handling dissappear.

But you'll see a different set of complants arise though.

guionM

For the record, although I think that the Mustang is the better handling car and carries the most resons for purchasing over the Camaro and Challenger if you are an enthusiast, no one should dismiss the new Camaro by any measure.

The issue of weight has always irked me because some of the very same people who complain about weight are the ones who wanted IRS, high horsepower, manhole cover sized brakes with multiple pistons, and every creature comfort known to man available. The seems these same people get all bent and upset because GM didn't create some magical metal that weighs a fraction of what steel and aluminum weigh and as cheap as iron.

I layed out a challenge many times over many times over the years. Name a single brand new, mass produced, rear drive, V8 powered vehicle that seats at least 4 people that is lighter in weight. I've also pointed out the weights of smaller rwd vehicles including BMW, Hyundai, & Mercedes. Still waiting, but the complaints continue.

I point out what I dislike about the new Camaro (the dash, the quality of interior materials and the cheap feel, the understeer, the sitting-in-a-bathtub/bunker feeling, the mail slot sized trunk opening). But I also point out what I like about the new Camaro (the style, the power, the solidness of the chassis, the stability of IRS, the value...even though the SS bases more than an R/T or a GT).


I am also big enough to say that what I'd like in a 2 door coupe isn't what would sell.

Personally, I'd prefer a Hyundai Genesis coupe sized vehicle weighing in about 3300 pounds with either the 5.3 or a good V6 with 350 horsepower, track ready suspension, and better styling.

And.... judging by the sales of every coupe on the market that doesn't have the name Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger stuck somewhere on it's body.... my ideal car would sell barely better than a Yugo.


Truth is, people don't pay attention to weight. They go by how the vehicle looks, how it feels, does it offer enough room, and is the performance and fuel economy what they want.

The other truth is that this entire website of enthusiasts still represent only an extreme minute fatcion of Camaro buyers, owners, and fans. We are barely enough in numbers to support a paint color on a Camaro, let alone what a Camaro is or isn't. When we start splitting hairs and thinking we (myself included) hold all the answers and are the sole voice of Camaro, one should really start questioning yourself.

It's the public outside that dictates success or failure.

The 2002 4th gen Z28 by our standards should have whipped the snot out of the Mustang GT in sales. In reality, more men bought Mustang V6s than the grand total of all the LS1 Fbodies sold that year. You don't EVEN want to compare GT/Z28 sales that year.

Yet, there are complaints about the current Camaro, and yet it's still selling extremely well. There's a lesson here.

If one chooses not to buy one, that's fine and OK. There's literally hundreds and even thousands of other people out there to take yours (and my) place.

.....and THAT'S what judges how successful a car is.

I don't like everything about the new Camaro, and there's plenty of things I'd change. However, multitudes of people are rediscovering the Camaro... a car that was shunned completely a decade ago and was completely killed off 8 years ago.... They are buying Camaros again!

That's worth far more than anything else.