Chevrolet Camaro Gearbox Failures Explained?
07-16-2009, 12:29 PM
#1
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Chevrolet Camaro Gearbox Failures Explained?
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/che...res-explained/
2010 Tremec TR6060 (MM6/MZ6/MH3/MG9/M10) car transmission
2010 Model Year Summary
Tremec TR6060 six-speed manual car transmission
New Features and Benefits for 2010 model year
Second gear synchronizers using carbon material
Second gear synchronizer design with advanced and asymmetric teeth (CTSv in 2009)
Improved transmission pump pick-up
Implementation into the V-8 Camaro
Second gear synchronizers using carbon material
The change to carbon material on the second gear synchronizer will improve the durability of the synchronizer. Carbon also protects the synchronizer during WOT shifts with the wheels spinning. The shift feel improvements made in 2008 are refined further with the implementation of the carbon material.
Second gear synchronizer design with advanced and asymmetric teeth
Implementing advanced and asymmetric teeth on the second gear aynchronizer system improves the shiftability of the transmission during cold temperatures. This is accomplished by the advanced and asymmetric teeth contacting the second gear dog ring in less distance and with increase stopping power. The shift feel is significantly improved in cold weather. This design also improves the warm shifting comfort.
Improved transmission pump pick-up
As the performance vehicles improve in handling and on-track performance, an improvement to the transmission pump fluid pick up was needed to maintain an acceptable fluid temperature during limit handling and on-track events. In order to enhance operation, an ‘S’ tube design was introduced into some TR6060 applications for 2010 model year. The features of the ‘S’ tube are twofold. First, the tube is lengthened to put the pick-up point further rearward in the fluid sump. Second, the tube has an ‘S’ shape to put the pick up location in the middle of the sump as compared to the current design which is offset to the left slightly. With the introduction of the ‘S’ tube, fluid temps are reduced by 5 degrees Celsius.
Implementation into the V-8 Camaro
The TR6060 is mated to the LS3 engine in the 2010 Camaro. The TR6060 used in the Camaro will use the M10 gear set. A transmission pump will be standard. The TR6060 used in the Camaro is very similar to the TR6060 used in the 2009 CTSv.
2010 Model Year Summary
Tremec TR6060 six-speed manual car transmission
New Features and Benefits for 2010 model year
Second gear synchronizers using carbon material
Second gear synchronizer design with advanced and asymmetric teeth (CTSv in 2009)
Improved transmission pump pick-up
Implementation into the V-8 Camaro
Second gear synchronizers using carbon material
The change to carbon material on the second gear synchronizer will improve the durability of the synchronizer. Carbon also protects the synchronizer during WOT shifts with the wheels spinning. The shift feel improvements made in 2008 are refined further with the implementation of the carbon material.
Second gear synchronizer design with advanced and asymmetric teeth
Implementing advanced and asymmetric teeth on the second gear aynchronizer system improves the shiftability of the transmission during cold temperatures. This is accomplished by the advanced and asymmetric teeth contacting the second gear dog ring in less distance and with increase stopping power. The shift feel is significantly improved in cold weather. This design also improves the warm shifting comfort.
Improved transmission pump pick-up
As the performance vehicles improve in handling and on-track performance, an improvement to the transmission pump fluid pick up was needed to maintain an acceptable fluid temperature during limit handling and on-track events. In order to enhance operation, an ‘S’ tube design was introduced into some TR6060 applications for 2010 model year. The features of the ‘S’ tube are twofold. First, the tube is lengthened to put the pick-up point further rearward in the fluid sump. Second, the tube has an ‘S’ shape to put the pick up location in the middle of the sump as compared to the current design which is offset to the left slightly. With the introduction of the ‘S’ tube, fluid temps are reduced by 5 degrees Celsius.
Implementation into the V-8 Camaro
The TR6060 is mated to the LS3 engine in the 2010 Camaro. The TR6060 used in the Camaro will use the M10 gear set. A transmission pump will be standard. The TR6060 used in the Camaro is very similar to the TR6060 used in the 2009 CTSv.
07-16-2009, 03:28 PM
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Where's the explanation? All I see is a list of new features. Those changes were made to all TR6060 transmissions and they haven't had any issues with CTS-Vs or any Corvettes. Every transmission GM uses is "rated" at or near the max torque of the most powerful engine its mated too: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...a/10car_us.htm
07-16-2009, 03:33 PM
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I'm confused. I thought that the problem was with the halfshafts (is that the right term when referring to an independent rear?).
I too don't see any problems mentioned in the quoted text -- just improvements.
I too don't see any problems mentioned in the quoted text -- just improvements.
07-16-2009, 03:34 PM
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Where's the explanation? All I see is a list of new features. Those changes were made to all TR6060 transmissions and they haven't had any issues with CTS-Vs or any Corvettes. Every transmission GM uses is "rated" at or near the max torque of the most powerful engine its mated too: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...a/10car_us.htm
I'd be surprised if the maximum design torque is not north of 500ft-lbs if not north of 600....
07-16-2009, 03:36 PM
#6
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The quoted article also says:
I don't see anything in there that mentions what the torque handling capabilities of the Camaro's transmission are. Am I blind?
GM itself cites the torque handling capabilities of the Camaro transmission as being a gnat’s hair higher than the engine’s peak torque.
07-16-2009, 05:16 PM
#7
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No the problem as I've understood is that the output shaft of the TR6060 is the failure part and nothing to do with the rear axle/IRS. That's a rumor we don't need to start.
The TR6060 used in the Camaro SS is the M10 spec and is validated to 430 ft/lbs.
To me that seems right in line with what the TR6060's variants used in the ZR1, MH3 validated to 650 ft/lbs and CTS-V's MG9, validated to 560 ft/lbs in relation to those cars torque peaks.
This is the rest of the origional GM doc. that was cut off.
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en..._MG9_M10_n.doc
The TR6060 used in the Camaro SS is the M10 spec and is validated to 430 ft/lbs.
To me that seems right in line with what the TR6060's variants used in the ZR1, MH3 validated to 650 ft/lbs and CTS-V's MG9, validated to 560 ft/lbs in relation to those cars torque peaks.
This is the rest of the origional GM doc. that was cut off.
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en..._MG9_M10_n.doc
Last edited by 99SilverSS; 07-16-2009 at 05:23 PM.
07-16-2009, 07:29 PM
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Yeah the argument that the engine is close to the max rated torque of the xmsn doesn't really hold water. No engineer worth his salt is going to put a component out there with a rated level of performance equal to the design performance. Thats just asking for a component failure.
I'd be surprised if the maximum design torque is not north of 500ft-lbs if not north of 600....
I'd be surprised if the maximum design torque is not north of 500ft-lbs if not north of 600....
07-16-2009, 09:22 PM
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From what I know about manual transmissions and what I've read about the failure mode, I don't think the above improvements would have much to do with output shaft failure.
Do we know exactly what is happening to the output shafts? Are they breaking?
I'm thinking there is either a material defect in the shaft or a process problem (could be a heat treating and/or a machining issue).
There is an off chance that it could be a lubrication issue. I'm not familiar with a T6060. It sounds like it has a pressurized oiling system. The shaft is probably supported by roller bearings. Are the failures occuring around or near the bearings? Is there evidence of excessive heat in those areas? Is the shaft fused to the inner race? Is the failure in the output spline area? Did the shaft actually break? And if so where? And what does the break look like?
There's just too many questions without seeing actual parts.
And without seeing actual failed parts and without having first hand details, it's hard to determine root cause.
Do we know exactly what is happening to the output shafts? Are they breaking?
I'm thinking there is either a material defect in the shaft or a process problem (could be a heat treating and/or a machining issue).
There is an off chance that it could be a lubrication issue. I'm not familiar with a T6060. It sounds like it has a pressurized oiling system. The shaft is probably supported by roller bearings. Are the failures occuring around or near the bearings? Is there evidence of excessive heat in those areas? Is the shaft fused to the inner race? Is the failure in the output spline area? Did the shaft actually break? And if so where? And what does the break look like?
There's just too many questions without seeing actual parts.
And without seeing actual failed parts and without having first hand details, it's hard to determine root cause.
07-17-2009, 11:11 PM
#11
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The issue is that a few transmissions may have shafts that were not properly treated by the supplier -- most are fine - -we are working with the supplier to determine the population of cars that may have the isssue.
07-18-2009, 10:05 AM
#12
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The voice of reason, from the hoss' mouth. Thanks Scott.
07-18-2009, 10:23 AM
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I'd still like to know what the actual failure mode was/is.
But it sounds like a heat treat issue.
I wonder who supplies the shafts to Tremec.
Or do they get the shaft blanks and do their own machining & heat treating in house?
But it sounds like a heat treat issue.
I wonder who supplies the shafts to Tremec.
Or do they get the shaft blanks and do their own machining & heat treating in house?
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