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Old 10-12-2010, 09:29 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010_5thgen View Post
sure. i agree with you 100%. but your gonna pay a hefty price for it. M3,S5,CL AMG...performance 2+2 verts.....very prices.....yet very good and solid.
Those are just higher performance versions of their bread-and-butter secretary convertibles, which are 4 place coupes with the roofs chopped off. Why can they be performance cars but the SS droptop can't?



The M3 droptop weighs 4145 lbs, compared with teh M3 coupe's 3704 lbs! That's a 440 lb increase for the droptop... It has a 4.0L V8 with 414 hp and a paltry 295 lb-ft of torque (and it's rated at 20 mpg hwy). It also has 13.8" / 14.2" brakes. Why can't a 4000-4100 lb SS with 426 hp / 420 lb-ft and 14.0" / 14.4" Brembos be a performance car?

Ford makes a GT500 convertible. There is no reason there cannot be a Z/28 convertible. Is the GT500 droptop expected to be primarily used as a track weapon? No. Is it still a performance car? Absolutely. Those who do intend to track the car often will likely modify it accordingly (roll cage, etc.).

Hell, the GT500 COUPE isn't expected to be used as a track weapon by most owners either. Nor is the Camaro SS coupe. You can have a car with performance intentions without expecting it to be exactly as capable as the coupe. It isn't like you get either Enzo performance or '59 Cadillac creampuff performance with nothing in between. Will the M3 droptop keep up with its 440 lb lighter coupe counterpart? No. Is it still a performance car? I sure as heck think so...

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Old 10-12-2010, 09:59 AM   #47
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camaro and gt500 may not be a track car, but the vert version sure as hell isnt. the only reason they offer these cars in a convertable is to expand the horizon of sales. does dropping a supercharged motor in a vert make it a performance oriented car??? no. and the other cars i compared, audi,bmw etc... those are pricey cars yes, but they do the vert/ performance very well. 4 seater convertables are not performance machines. no one says" its a nice day out, lets go to the track and put the top down!"
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:03 AM   #48
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no one says" its a nice day out, lets go to the track and put the top down!"
Only a select few wild ones do, but a mere fraction of a fraction of what the target market is.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:51 AM   #49
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camaro and gt500 may not be a track car, but the vert version sure as hell isnt. the only reason they offer these cars in a convertable is to expand the horizon of sales. does dropping a supercharged motor in a vert make it a performance oriented car??? no. and the other cars i compared, audi,bmw etc... those are pricey cars yes, but they do the vert/ performance very well. 4 seater convertables are not performance machines. no one says" its a nice day out, lets go to the track and put the top down!"
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Only a select few wild ones do, but a mere fraction of a fraction of what the target market is.
Again I'm confused by this absurd notion / implication that a car is only a "performance" car if it is to be used on the racetrack.

If the M3 droptop is a performance car, WTF reason is there that the Camaro SS (or Z/28) or GT500 cannot be in convertible form?

Sure, not too many people would say, "Let's go to the track and put the top down!"

But LOTS of people will say, "It's beautiful outside! Let's put the top down and do some high speed canyon carving!" And some would also be happy to enjoy their car with the top down for the 99% of the miles that WON'T be on a track, and still occasionally throw the extra wheels & tires on the car and take it to an open track day or autocross event. Maybe you have enough money to buy a track-only weapon to get your "true performance" kicks and then buy a convertible version of the same car to go boulevarding, but most people don't...

As for the M3, you seem to be assuming that because it is a BMW and expensive, it automatically does the "vert / performance" thing well. I'm sure it does, 'cause BMW tends to build good stuff, but I still bet the 440 lb lighter M3 coupe would smoke the M3 droptop. By your reasoning, that would seem to render the M3 droptop as something other than a performance car.

I'm sorry, but a sporty coupe or convertible with 426 hp, a six speed manual or paddle shifted auto, a competent chassis, high performance Pirellis, and 14 inch Brembo brakes is a performance car of a decent level. Is it a "max" performance / track weapon car like the Z06, ZR1, Lotus Exige, Ariel Atom? No. But the car is clearly intended to offer real world performance.

You guys seem to think that because it is a stylish four seater with the top removed, it is automatically in the same category as a Chrysler Sebring or Toyota Solara. THOSE are definitely not performance cars. The Camaro is.

And BTW, only a fraction of a fraction of SS coupe buyers will take their cars to the road course as well. A higher number might do the occasional dragstrip, but most cars won't even see that. Does that mean it isn't a performance car?
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Last edited by 96_Camaro_B4C; 10-12-2010 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:11 PM   #50
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the whole point of this argument was that the convertible 2+2 car is not going to be seriously concidered as a race car as much as a 2 seater coupe drop top is. but there are some that are good track/race/drag whatever you want to call it, cars. and they are more pricey.chassis is stronger, and the car is made to be a performance convertible.are the camaro and mustang verts MADE to be a performance vert or are they just made to give you a drop top? they arent designed around the convertable idea. the convertible idea is made around the car. meaning they do what they need to do to make the car handle the lack of roof. its not a natural convertible carving mountains does not justify anything. thats just called cruising.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:45 PM   #51
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Joe, you are reading this from the wrong angle. Since you quoted me, I am referring to target market from the Chevrolet standpoint. I even stated that. I know the Camaro is a performance car. I am sure most also agree. I also know that VERY FEW people will look at a coupe and look at a convertible with the intent to run 10s at the dragstrip and choose the convertible. Chevrolet knows this as well.

This seems to be coming down to everyone's definition and breaking point of "performance" (or related term)...which is purely opinion. Therefore, there is no need to get in a twist over someone's opinion which cannot be considered "wrong". Eye of the beholder comes into play...or more appropriately...intent of the purchaser.

What's absurd? Accusing me of putting a Camaro in with the Sebring and Solara category. I never said anything even remotely like that because it would never cross my mind. I myself know better.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:40 PM   #52
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By the way, you can SELECT the dealer of YOUR CHOICE for this car - MSRP is $75,000. Dealers CAN NOT charge more than that! NOW, that said, and the way I understand it, a dealer CAN CHARGE LESS! HELL YEA I'M THAT GUY!!!! But I don't know what our COST IS!

I do NOT plan charging ANYONE MSRP on this car, IF ORDERED through ME.

ALSO, If ANYONE see's one of these on a dealer lot, that dealership is in BIG trouble! BIG, in CAPS BIG!

OK, let the HATE CALLS From other dealers BEGIN!
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:07 PM   #53
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Go Scotty!

I actually really like the way this car looks. I just can't afford it at the present time (sigh).
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Old 10-12-2010, 08:16 PM   #54
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Really nice color, I like it, but for $75,000? There should have been more luxury appointments at that price. A leather stitched dash would have been a nice touch, and would have dressed up the interior a bit and separated it more from the standard Camaros.
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:17 PM   #55
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are the camaro and mustang verts MADE to be a performance vert or are they just made to give you a drop top? they arent designed around the convertable idea. the convertible idea is made around the car.
I don't know where you're getting this info, but the 5th gen was designed to be a performance convertible as well as a coupe. Its very stiff (heavy) chassis will pay dividends for it when the top is gone.

I'm not sure about the mustang but hearing the reviews so far it's pretty obvious it was not a big priority.
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:59 AM   #56
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I don't know where you're getting this info, but the 5th gen was designed to be a performance convertible as well as a coupe. Its very stiff (heavy) chassis will pay dividends for it when the top is gone.

I'm not sure about the mustang but hearing the reviews so far it's pretty obvious it was not a big priority.
Yeah some of the rags acted like the Mustang was sort of wet noodle like with the top gone, and I bet the Camaro will feel more solid.

That said, I haven't driven a new Mustang vert so that was just what I read.
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:43 AM   #57
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Here is a video of Tom Peters talking about this Camaro -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq6cy...layer_embedded
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:54 AM   #58
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I don't know where you're getting this info, but the 5th gen was designed to be a performance convertible as well as a coupe. Its very stiff (heavy) chassis will pay dividends for it when the top is gone.

I'm not sure about the mustang but hearing the reviews so far it's pretty obvious it was not a big priority.
my info is basically common knowledge. on a 4 seater convertible compared to the 2 seater convertible, the chassis is not as solid. sure the camaro may be more solid than the mustang, but that doesnt say much. just means its heavier with more bracing support.
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:51 AM   #59
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the whole point of this argument was that the convertible 2+2 car is not going to be seriously concidered as a race car as much as a 2 seater coupe drop top is. but there are some that are good track/race/drag whatever you want to call it, cars. and they are more pricey.chassis is stronger, and the car is made to be a performance convertible.are the camaro and mustang verts MADE to be a performance vert or are they just made to give you a drop top? they arent designed around the convertable idea. the convertible idea is made around the car. meaning they do what they need to do to make the car handle the lack of roof. its not a natural convertible carving mountains does not justify anything. thats just called cruising.
I never said the convertible would be considered to be a "race" car. I'm saying it can still be a performance car without being an "ultra" performance car like the Z06 or a Ferrari 599 GTO. How do you know that the M3 droptop's chassis is stronger than the Camaro's? As 95 Z/28 LT1 said, the car was planned to have a convertible version from the beginning. It wasn't an afterthought. As for that M3, the fact that the droptop weighs 440 lbs MORE than the coupe might suggest that some additional bracing is needed on that car as well (though some of the weight penalty is likely due to the use of a folding hard top, which itself suggests that luxury may have won out over performance for the 3 series). I don't expect the Camaro droptop to be light, since the coupe is already heavy, but I don't expect a 440 lb penalty either. I sure hope not.

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Joe, you are reading this from the wrong angle. Since you quoted me, I am referring to target market from the Chevrolet standpoint. I even stated that. I know the Camaro is a performance car. I am sure most also agree. I also know that VERY FEW people will look at a coupe and look at a convertible with the intent to run 10s at the dragstrip and choose the convertible. Chevrolet knows this as well.
As do I.
Quote:
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This seems to be coming down to everyone's definition and breaking point of "performance" (or related term)...which is purely opinion. Therefore, there is no need to get in a twist over someone's opinion which cannot be considered "wrong". Eye of the beholder comes into play...or more appropriately...intent of the purchaser.
I agree, it is somewhat coming down to semantics. I almost typed a very similar paragraph in my last post, as a matter of fact. However, I think it is pretty silly to state or imply that a 2+2 convertible can't be a performance car or be "performance oriented" at all, which is what 2010_5thgen stated. Of course, after that he made exceptions for cars like the M3 droptop, which apparently can be performance oriented because they are pricey.

Going even farther back into the thread, I was trying to make the point that even those buying a convertible have a right to care about weight and other performance-reducing issues. You are right, though, that Chevrolet knows that the convertible will have some things prioritized a little differently than will the coupe. Still, while many droptop buyers won't care about a few extra pounds caused by more blingy wheels, I'm speaking up for those of us who do, whether because of track concerns (not in my case) or street performance concerns or out of principle (my case). Even if you aren't trying to shave 0.3 seconds from a lap time, you can still appreciate the benefits of lighter weight, quicker steering, better transient responses, etc. It all contributes to that "fun to drive" tally.
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What's absurd? Accusing me of putting a Camaro in with the Sebring and Solara category. I never said anything even remotely like that because it would never cross my mind. I myself know better.
While I did say "seem to think", forgive my bit of hyperbole there nonetheless. Really I shouldn't have said "you guys" as that would have been better aimed at 2010_5thgen based on some of his comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95 Z/28 LT1 View Post
I don't know where you're getting this info, but the 5th gen was designed to be a performance convertible as well as a coupe. Its very stiff (heavy) chassis will pay dividends for it when the top is gone.
Yes. Of course, a stiff (light) chassis would be even better, but still...

Quote:
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my info is basically common knowledge. on a 4 seater convertible compared to the 2 seater convertible, the chassis is not as solid. sure the camaro may be more solid than the mustang, but that doesnt say much. just means its heavier with more bracing support.
Even assuming your speculation is correct, that still doesn't mean it can't be a performance car. Which is all I'm saying.

I think we can agree that the car probably won't offer exactly the same level of performance as the coupe. My issue was with your statement that a 4 seat convertible cannot be a performance car. Again, it seems to me that you are equating "performance car" or "performance oriented" with all out track weapon, which is a bit unreasonable, IMO. That's why I keep saying that if trackworthiness is your yardstick, even the SS coupe wouldn't be all that convincing as a "performance car" as it comes from the factory. Anyway, if the droptop has no performance intentions, they might as well sell it only as the V6...
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:04 AM   #60
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Okay, Itchy and Scratchy...how about the expensive as hell but very exclusive Neiman-Marcus Camaro?
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