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Old 10-05-2008, 11:28 AM   #1
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475HP 7L 3760lb Z/28 $36K - How do we get there?

The other thread on the ideal Z/28 has inspired me to actually try to harness the vast knowledge among our posters to help GM build a Z/28 that will actually fly.


I propose a mass produced version of the 7.0 LS7 that should easily make 475certified hp at the crank. An assembly line LS7 minus Ti rods,valves and ported heads won't cost any more or weigh any more than the identically sized 6.2 LS3.

OK the easy part's done.

Now how do we get 100lbs out of the Camaro SS which weighs in at 3860.

My first idea is lightweight seats. I'm guessing you can save 40lbs right there. Cost I'd say $1K

OK now find 60 more lbs with your remaining $4K in increased cost
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Old 10-05-2008, 11:31 AM   #2
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I don't think we need an LS7 to get to the 475hp mark honestly. But I like the idea of lighter weight. Thats what the Z/28 needs not 550hp and 4100lbs.
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Old 10-05-2008, 01:37 PM   #3
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I would imagine that at this point, spending money on a Z/28 package, must be an extremely low priority for GM.
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:27 PM   #4
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The better question is would anyone pay 5k more for 75 hp and a few less pounds. I would not. I am more concerned about the overall balance and performance of the car and value. As far as saving 40lbs in the area of seats, I doubt it. Safety standards require very stout seats in the U.S. . Simply taking the power portion of the seats out may save a few pounds but not 40. In the Camaro only the drivers seat is power.
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Old 10-05-2008, 06:40 PM   #5
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The better question is would anyone pay 5k more for 75 hp and a few less pounds. I would not. I am more concerned about the overall balance and performance of the car and value. As far as saving 40lbs in the area of seats, I doubt it. Safety standards require very stout seats in the U.S. . Simply taking the power portion of the seats out may save a few pounds but not 40. In the Camaro only the drivers seat is power.
This is more or less what is happening with the Z06 Vette . . . except it's ~+15k.
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Old 10-05-2008, 06:55 PM   #6
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This is more or less what is happening with the Z06 Vette . . . except it's ~+15k.
Not really. The Z06 dropped most of its weight by going to an aluminum frame. The cost of doing this is prohibitive for a Camaro.
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Old 10-06-2008, 01:19 AM   #7
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Maybe make the whole Camaro body out of carbon fiber. GM isnt ever going to do that because that would hit High end Corvette territory.
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Old 10-06-2008, 01:29 AM   #8
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The Hybrid version of the Tahoe lost 50# from just the front seats. They also lost weight in the hood, wheels, and a few other places to counter the extra weight of the two-mode transmission.

Why limit the LS7 to only 475hp? The LSA makes peak power at 6100 and the fuel cut off is at 6200 with forged powdered metal rods. Those would work and should be a LOT less expensive than the Ti rods in the LS7 or LS9.
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Now we're speculating on the speculation....all the while, throwing more speculation into the mix. Is one speculation (or "most realistic guess") any better than the other speculation?
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:29 AM   #9
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Shaving 100lbs wouldn't be a problem. I lifted the following from a previous post of mine:

".......but they could take SOME of the weight off for basically free the same way they did with the C5 Z06: No CD changer, power antenna, fog lights, sound deadener in rear, telescoping steering column, "sport" (pwrd lumbar) seats, passenger seat motor, No jack or spare (like all C5's), "run-flat" tires (instead use "regular" tires and included a bottle of stop leak & compressor), tire pressure sensors, and anything else I may have left off. On top of that ditch the seat warmers and whatever else they determine is "unimportant" without going overboard by getting rid of what the MAJORITY of the public expect in cars nowadays (A/C, Pwr Window & Locks, etc).
They could take it even further the same they did on the C5 Z06 "relatively" cheaply by using: titanium exhaust, thinner windshield, and on the '04 Comm. Ed. Z06 a carbon fiber hood (do the same to Camaro's trunk)."

But.....as far as making significantly more power (50hp+) without being blown? Come on guys, get real .....if it was really that easy to make a "cheap LS7", don't you think GM would have done it already? Do you really think that adding an extra 53hp to the current LS3 is just a matter of throwing a bigger cam in it? The EPA would love that .
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Old 10-06-2008, 07:56 AM   #10
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Maybe make the whole Camaro body out of carbon fiber. GM isnt ever going to do that because that would hit High end Corvette territory.
No. It isn't ever going to be done because it would be hyper expensive.

Corvette's carbon fiber is used to make some body panels. Unlike the Corvette, Camaro is constructed as a steel unibody. Then there's the durability and crash issue (unlike steel and aluminum, carbon fiber shatters and splinters instead of bends and crushes to adsorb inpact).

There's a good reason why there isn't a car manufacturer that uses a 100% carbon fiber construction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron78Z&01SS View Post
Shaving 100lbs wouldn't be a problem. I lifted the following from a previous post of mine:

".......but they could take SOME of the weight off for basically free the same way they did with the C5 Z06: No CD changer, power antenna, fog lights, sound deadener in rear, telescoping steering column, "sport" (pwrd lumbar) seats, passenger seat motor, No jack or spare (like all C5's), "run-flat" tires (instead use "regular" tires and included a bottle of stop leak & compressor), tire pressure sensors, and anything else I may have left off. On top of that ditch the seat warmers and whatever else they determine is "unimportant" without going overboard by getting rid of what the MAJORITY of the public expect in cars nowadays (A/C, Pwr Window & Locks, etc).
They could take it even further the same they did on the C5 Z06 "relatively" cheaply by using: titanium exhaust, thinner windshield, and on the '04 Comm. Ed. Z06 a carbon fiber hood (do the same to Camaro's trunk)."
Between the Titanium exhaust and Magnesium engine cradle to it's Aluminum frame, and all the other expensive weight saving items, the Z06 weighs..... drum roll please..... an amazing....47 pounds less than the standard run of the mill Corvette.

We need to take the time to actually check things out before using them as an example.

The Z06's weight savings was primarily to avoid weight gain related to a more powerful engine and higher performance capabilities If you are going to charge a $25-30,000 premium for this car, you can afford magnesium engine cradles and roof supports, carbon fiber front fender, front wheelhouses, and floor panels (the only carbon fiber parts of the Z06 body), and pop in aluminum piece instead of steel into the hydroforming machine for the frame. Subtract about 10 grand due to added costs that went to the engine, and there's still a healthy profit.


But.....as far as making significantly more power (50hp+) without being blown? Come on guys, get real .....if it was really that easy to make a "cheap LS7", don't you think GM would have done it already? Do you really think that adding an extra 53hp to the current LS3 is just a matter of throwing a bigger cam in it? The EPA would love that .[/QUOTE]

You hit the nail on the head here.

I suppose you could replace the magnesium parts on the LS7, the sodium filled valves, the extensive use of titanium, loose the dry sump lube system. You'd still have an expensive block (it isn't the same block as any other LS engine), and you'd spend alot of time and money re-engineering pretty much the entire engine since you'd have to replace, test, and certify all those exotic parts (even the pistons are completely different (shorter as well as smaller) than that on the regular LS engines.

A non starter for use on such a relatively small number of vehicles.

That's why GM created the supercharged LSa engine.

Many people have a hard time accepting the notion that if something could be done it would be. That covers everything from a "lightweight" Camaro to "budget" LS7s. GM may be overly conservative, but if there was a way GM could make ANY car lighter and pass the same rigourous guidelines, of all things GM screws up on, that is one thing they would do 100% religiously. GM will spend money to take off weight & make things lighter duty to take off weight. But that has to be balenced with current and future safety requirements as well as product liability and being durable enough to stand up to the abuse a performance Camaro owner will or might likely subject their car to.

If you want the Camaro to lose weight, then the only practical and realistic way to do that is to start thinking about the next Camaro with less power & without a V8 engine option. That way, the body and driveline components can be made lighter and they in turn will make the car substantially lighter.

Thinking you're going to get a 475-500+ horsepower rear drive, IRS, safety standard passing Chevrolet Camaro that isn't the size of a Solstice or doesn't have a top end governed to 155 at a weight notably less than what we ended up in the price ballpark that we ended up with with isn't realistic.

.... and there are people who still have issue with the price increase.
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:27 AM   #11
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you would want to lose some more weight up front to get it closer to 50/50 ratio so i would do a fiberglass hood. that might drop 20lbs
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:56 AM   #12
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Do you really think that adding an extra 53hp to the current LS3 is just a matter of throwing a bigger cam in it? The EPA would love that .
Actually it pretty much is, contact LG Motorports for details
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:17 AM   #13
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simple. buy Z28 for ~$3000 for decent quality model, $15 for the engine, and the rest on getting it to run and you should come way below 3700lbs and $36k dollars.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:22 AM   #14
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By pulling the LS7 out of my current SS and dropping it into the new SS. Otherwise I don't think that GM will be doing an upscale model in the current economy,
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:27 PM   #15
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Actually it pretty much is, contact LG Motorports for details
I'm sure he means while passing GM's pretty brutal durability standards & be covered under warranty like any other GM engine.
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:27 PM
 
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